Dispensing with the sandbags.

[Lars Hansen]

I'm not entirely sure how to do this politely, to be honest.
Then again, I'm not racing much these days due to time-constraints, so I don't have any particular personal stake in it.
So I'm just going to state a personal opinion, and people can take it for whatever they like.

But can we please get people to stop sandbagging during qualification in the Club races?
I'm not out to start a witch-hunt, so I'm not naming any names. This is simply a general observation.
I started noticing it a few months ago, and now it's becoming just blatantly obvious.
I get that it's a way to challenge yourself against what might be a weaker field, and if you have a YT channel, I'm sure it makes for exhilarating viewing for your followers.

Unfortunately, it also means that you regard the rest of the Club racers as nothing more than cannon-fodder, which is not only f*cking annoying, it's also arrogant to the point of contempt.
Besides, you're not fooling anybody. Once you've raced against the same people 3-4 times you get a pretty good idea of their pace, which means that now you have a bunch of people in front of you who know they'll have to let you through at some point. And if some of these people are newcomers or simply less experienced, you've just increased the chances of a racing incident manifold, for no reason whatsoever.

You wouldn't do it if this was a league-race.
You wouldn't do it if there was a MP ranking-system in place.
So pretty please, with sugar on top.......

<mod-edit: removed foul language>

 

[Deleted member 387850]

It’s a bit sad that we can’t discuss something which, whether you agree or not, some drivers clearly feel is an issue without it descending into talk of exclusion, draconian rule changes and just shutting everything down altogether. Surely it’s fair and right to ask questions and have discussions to see if we can improve club racing?

I would also add that in my experience the club races are still very much in the spirit in which they were intended and that can be evidenced by anyone who joins Teamspeak for an event. I think, as always, there is a big difference between what gets said on a forum and what gets said in a live chat.

 

[Matheus Machado]

And I thought the whole it is 2017 and people ter offended by existing thing was over.I'm glad to see it has been surpassed and now people get offended by being overtaken in a race. What a beautiful world we live in.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Are we now really talking about having to ask permission to live stream a multiplayer game?

It has been in a the club rules for a long time http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/racing-club-regulations-2018.10978/ section 11.

For various reasons permission is needed and the most important one is privacy. Not everybody is keen on sharing his or her real life name on the internet and certainly not on channels they have no control over. If there is a race on a public server with fake nicknames i am sure nobody has an issue with it, however on club and league races on RD real names are needed and we want to be a safe haven for everybody with regards to privacy. Therefore no streaming without permissions, no result uploading to external 3rd party websites etc. Pretty common stuff with regards to privacy legislation and certainly not exemplaric to simracing. Should be common practice on the web.

 

[Georg Ortner]

That is regarding TeamSpeak @Bram Hengeveld

It's strictly forbidden to record and broadcast TeamSpeak voice-chat via YouTube, Twitch and/or other media unless you have permission from all the drivers in the session.

I've always muted it.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

That is regarding TeamSpeak @Bram Hengeveld
I've always muted it.

Reading through it once again I think we should reword section 11 better as it's multi interpretable. We clearly need to define the real names bit as that really is a privacy violation when it's broadcasted without permission.

Will get on to it right away

With regards to what @Warren Dawes wrote about the spirit of racing in the clubs.

Currently we are only offering two sides of the simracing spectrum: casual races on the one hand, serious esports for points on the other. We hope to have a fitting solution for the part in the middle "soon". This is the area where competitive drivers without the commitment of joining a league should or can race in. The (social) clubs should be primarely again to those who are new to simracing and those who enjoy a night out with friends with banter, laughs, learning and a bit of racing without the pressure of points Purely casual fun stuff.

 

[Georg Ortner]

It's strictly forbidden to record and broadcast the real names of our members and/or TeamSpeak voice-chat via YouTube, Twitch and/or other media unless you have permission from all the drivers in the session to stream it.

Completely inpractical. But hey, it's your site.
RIP RD Club streams.

 

[BhZ]

Currently we are only offering two sides of the simracing spectrum: casual races on the one hand, serious esports for points on the other.

No matter the kind of race you organize, we still speak about races. Let's not forget what are the requirements for an event to be called race: the most important part is to have opponents, the second is to have them competing for a position. The idea that being pressured from a faster guy is the equivalent of being bullied is ridicolous. I understand the need for RD to be diplomatic on the matter, but you have to define when enough is enough. I spent the last year seeing people complaining about anything and for the biggest part, they complained about ridicolous things. I also saw the slow guys complaining continuosly about the so called "aliens" just because they saw one guy once doing something wrong, but the moment an alien complain about a slow guy being extremely dangerous on track, the answer he gets is "i'm sorry if the slow guys ruin your races, next time i won't sign up". This really reminds me of the classic black guy being racist is fine while a white guy being racist is the worst thing possible" (just to avoid attacks from people that don't want to understand, i'm not saying it's right to be racist, i am completely against racism...what i'm saying is that we should all be under the same rules).
We've seen mods, reverse grids, faster cars all going away to help the newcomers and still they complain it's not enough. It's time to remind people what a race is instead of doing everything they ask.

 

[jimortality]

That bit in the middle, points or similar without joining a league is what I'm waiting for. I think that will encourage the people who like myself, can't commit to regular league races to just give that bit more effort to get involved. Maybe or maybe not.

 

[M4LLY]

Less like friendly club racing and more like DPRK everyday, control freaks and trolls!
When does this madness stop?

I think this club has lost its way big time.

 

[jimortality]

No matter the kind of race you organize, we still speak about races. Let's not forget what are the requirements for an event to be called race: the most important part is to have opponents, the second is to have them competing for a position. The idea that being pressured from a faster guy is the equivalent of being bullied is ridicolous. I understand the need for RD to be diplomatic on the matter, but you have to define when enough is enough. I spent the last year seeing people complaining about anything and for the biggest part, they complained about ridicolous things. I also saw the slow guys complaining continuosly about the so called "aliens" just because they saw one guy once doing something wrong, but the moment an alien complain about a slow guy being extremely dangerous on track, the answer he gets is "i'm sorry if the slow guys ruin your races, next time i won't sign up". This really reminds me of the classic black guy being racist is fine while a white guy being racist is the worst thing possible" (just to avoid attacks from people that don't want to understand, i'm not saying it's right to be racist, i am completely against racism...what i'm saying is that we should all be under the same rules).
We've seen mods, reverse grids, faster cars all going away to help the newcomers and still they complain it's not enough. It's time to remind people what a race is instead of doing everything they ask.

A quick example if I may and yes the topic has moved on to other things but you mention about slow drivers being bullied in your last thread and while you may have a point, last year I got bullied off the racing line by a driver who was lapping me and when I presented the evidence, he said that I was too slow on the racing line and basically it was my fault he rear ended me and shoved me off. How can you define what is legit and not when even with evidence, people don't think their actions are wrong. So over all, who's right and who is wrong about sandbagging, race craft etc. I've not raced since then but who's right or wrong. I know now that if I were to start racing again, I wouldn't afford the people lapping me the same courtesy as I used to. So many issues and what's one person's fun is another person's bullying. You understand?

 

[BhZ]

I understand what you are saying and i don't doubt that some guys are not exactly polite while they race, but to say that every alien is a bully is too much and that's what i often see in some threads.

, he said that I was too slow on the racing line and basically it was my fault he rear ended me and shoved me off.

This is a problem that i believe has no solution. I think a requirement to get a clean race is that every driver knows the braking points of a track. If a guy brakes 50 meters earlier while the guy behind brakes at the correct braking point, the result will be an incident. Who's fault is it? The fast guy behind that didn't expect it? Or the guy in front not knowing at least the braking point of a track? If i were the fast guy, i would not think i owe the slow guy excuses. I'd say sorry anyway to be diplomatic, but the truth is that that is a situation with no solution and a situation when hardly someone is at fault, since RD encourage people to join races without even 30 minutes of practice (that are more than enough to learn the braking points).
Of course i'm not talking about your situation and if the case was different, then you had the right to pretend excuses from the guy. If the case was similar to the one described, i'm afraid there's no solution to that as the guy in front was doing what RD told him to and the guy behind was simply doing what any racer do during a race.
EDIT: typo

 

[Georg Ortner]

Individual racing incidents should be treated as such.
Regardless of what position that driver started from.

 

[RasmusP]

A quick example if I may and yes the topic has moved on to other things but you mention about slow drivers being bullied in your last thread and while you may have a point, last year I got bullied off the racing line by a driver who was lapping me and when I presented the evidence, he said that I was too slow on the racing line and basically it was my fault he rear ended me and shoved me off. How can you define what is legit and not when even with evidence, people don't think their actions are wrong. So over all, who's right and who is wrong about sandbagging, race craft etc. I've not raced since then but who's right or wrong. I know now that if I were to start racing again, I wouldn't afford the people lapping me the same courtesy as I used to. So many issues and what's one person's fun is another person's bullying. You understand?

Sorry but that is simple: dig out that evidence and start a pm with the race host or the current club manager. The responsible people will check that incident and come back to you.
Maybe it's too old now to hand out a ban but you still seem to be bothered by this so just ask us and you'll know who was right and who was wrong
That is exactly why I wrote my post above: report these people! A report doesn't mean that the other person will be banned 100%.
It's simply a way to get justice done. Nothing more, nothing less.
Sure, you "risk" that the other person gets banned if you make it an official "report" but you can just pm us staffs and ask for our opinion to just know who's in the right there.

When I was new I did exactly this after my very first race. Bram hosted the race so I sent him a pm with a few Screenshots and kindly asked if that would be in the rules or not.
He explained it to me, I learnt a lot and I told him I wasn't bothered enough to report it.

1 pm with 3 posts. Easy, simple, fair. 5 minutes invested for some inner peace.
Don't quit racing because you feel you couldn't fight your fights. Just race while being nice and if you feel treated the wrong way just get us staffs involved!
We are not here for some biased dictatorships. We are here to have fair and nice racing with you guys. If there are some black sheeps, no matter the pace, just let us know and we'll handle it with best intentions

Blaming some generalized groups doesn't solve anything. Yes, maybe the first posts were needed to raise some awareness but it evolved into something ugly now...

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

The idea that being pressured from a faster guy is the equivalent of being bullied is ridicolous.

Not sure why you are quoting my entire post and then write about stuff I haven't said at all.

I made a post to clarify why real names and teamspeak should not be streamed without permission and that we are going to add an extra dimension to online racing at some point. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[jimortality]

Sorry but that is simple: dig out that evidence and start a pm with the race host or the current club manager. The responsible people will check that incident and come back to you.
Maybe it's too old now to hand out a ban but you still seem to be bothered by this so just ask us and you'll know who was right and who was wrong
That is exactly why I wrote my post above: report these people! A report doesn't mean that the other person will be banned 100%.
It's simply a way to get justice done. Nothing more, nothing less.
Sure, you "risk" that the other person gets banned if you make it an official "report" but you can just pm us staffs and ask for our opinion to just know who's in the right there.

When I was new I did exactly this after my very first race. Bram hosted the race so I sent him a pm with a few Screenshots and kindly asked if that would be in the rules or not.
He explained it to me, I learnt a lot and I told him I wasn't bothered enough to report it.

1 pm with 3 posts. Easy, simple, fair. 5 minutes invested for some inner peace.
Don't quit racing because you feel you couldn't fight your fights. Just race while being nice and if you feel treated the wrong way just get us staffs involved!
We are not here for some biased dictatorships. We are here to have fair and nice racing with you guys. If there are some black sheeps, no matter the pace, just let us know and we'll handle it with best intentions

Blaming some generalized groups doesn't solve anything. Yes, maybe the first posts were needed to raise some awareness but it evolved into something ugly now...

Yes but from the first post about sandbagging which then went onto lack of courtesy to bullying so it was a continuation as such. Anyway enough about sandbagging what about Tbagging! This constitutes a worse crime lol

 

[BhZ]

Not sure why you are quoting my entire post and then write about stuff I haven't said at all.

I made a post to clarify why real names and teamspeak should not be streamed and that we are going to add an extra dimension to online racing at some point. Nothing more, nothing less.

I quoted you because you said that you are not covering the middle part of simracing, while the real problem is the continuous request from some slow guys, that do not accept a challenge, to make things easier and easier and easier. They are also attacking the entire "fast guy" group just for the actions of some of them.
This conversation keeps going on without a sense. The slow guys nor the "aliens" will change idea and the only one that actually decides is you and at the moment we are just attacking each other to no end.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

@BhZ I am dealing with the absolute newcomers in simracing in the Premium Driver Academy and the general sense there is that even our social clubs are a massive barrier for most people to take. You should really not underestimate that.

From your perspective as an experienced simracer things might look totally different than from the point of view of a rookie / newcomer.

All of us have to start their online simracing carreer at some point and I really find it the task for faster more experienced drivers in the social club events to help the slower drivers out by sharing tips, tricks and knowledge. If there are any people (1 or 100 doesn't matter) feeling that for whatever reason they feel intimidated with (vocal?) faster drivers chasing them from the rear of the field (for no apperant reason, as to use your words we are racing, and racing means doing a qualy) then all drivers should just take that on board as an opinion / view and try to do something constructive with it. People are obviously concerned and try to improve things.

 

[Case_]

Wait, what? So it is now forbidden to have a stream even showing the names of the people involved? You're kidding, right? This wasn't in the rules before.

You might as well just ban people streaming their races altogether, then. Because it's not feasible to remove the names of the participants from the game completely, and it is not feasible to get permission from every single person in the race. Just like it wasn't feasible with TS banter, and plenty of people simply ignored it. Including staff, I have to say. Neither has staff ever asked permission to show people's names in the stream, I believe.

So yeah, if even showing names now needs permission from everyone in the race, then just ban streaming, because that's an impossible rule to follow.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Wait, what? So it is now forbidden to have a stream even showing the names of the people involved? You're kidding, right? This wasn't in the rules before.

It has always been the rule to ask for permission to stream. It's really bad practice to just fire up streams and disclose private discussions on teamspeak and real names without people knowing or giving consent.

You can clearly ask for permission in teamspeak before the start of the race and if people don't answer or object there are no issues. But not asking permission is a breach of privacy.

Inform and ask for persmission is a much better solution than having your videos flagged on Youtube.

 

[Patrick Fournier]

Wait, what? So it is now forbidden to have a stream even showing the names of the people involved? You're kidding, right? This wasn't in the rules before.

You might as well just ban people streaming their races altogether, then. Because it's not feasible to remove the names of the participants from the game completely, and it is not feasible to get permission from every single person in the race. Just like it wasn't feasible with TS banter, and plenty of people simply ignored it. Including staff, I have to say. Neither has staff ever asked permission to show people's names in the stream, I believe.

So yeah, if even showing names now needs permission from everyone in the race, then just ban streaming.

... which to be honest would be absolutely aweful for sim racing. I got into this (online sim racing and RD more specifically) by watching streamed or archived online races, so I'm not sure amending the rules is the right way to go... With regards to the privacy argument, since names aren't searchable on Youtube, it's not really a concern... I can see how nicknames would be an issue on forums because real names would probably show up on google, but not on Youtube.