Dispensing with the sandbags.

[Lars Hansen]

I'm not entirely sure how to do this politely, to be honest.
Then again, I'm not racing much these days due to time-constraints, so I don't have any particular personal stake in it.
So I'm just going to state a personal opinion, and people can take it for whatever they like.

But can we please get people to stop sandbagging during qualification in the Club races?
I'm not out to start a witch-hunt, so I'm not naming any names. This is simply a general observation.
I started noticing it a few months ago, and now it's becoming just blatantly obvious.
I get that it's a way to challenge yourself against what might be a weaker field, and if you have a YT channel, I'm sure it makes for exhilarating viewing for your followers.

Unfortunately, it also means that you regard the rest of the Club racers as nothing more than cannon-fodder, which is not only f*cking annoying, it's also arrogant to the point of contempt.
Besides, you're not fooling anybody. Once you've raced against the same people 3-4 times you get a pretty good idea of their pace, which means that now you have a bunch of people in front of you who know they'll have to let you through at some point. And if some of these people are newcomers or simply less experienced, you've just increased the chances of a racing incident manifold, for no reason whatsoever.

You wouldn't do it if this was a league-race.
You wouldn't do it if there was a MP ranking-system in place.
So pretty please, with sugar on top.......

<mod-edit: removed foul language>

 

[Georg Ortner]

Speechless

 

[Andy_J]

Interesting topic indeed. This very practice is one of the things that used to get me down in club races. There were only a few guys that did it but Lars is right in the fact that it bothers some racers enough to pee people off and make them stop club racing. It makes them feel inadequate and makes them feel nervous knowing the fast guy was a on a personal quest to catch up quickly, slicing through the field, divebombing slower guys, making others get nervous and thus make mistakes. Yeah, great fun for alien not so much fun for the regular guy.

Many even used to admit they wanted a steeper challenge so they start from the back on purpose and never for one fleeting millisecond were they giving any thought to what the other less talented guys were feeling about it. Sadly these uber competitive chaps are the same type that can't seem to do a fast lap of most tracks without having to use more of it than the rest of us, but that's another story.

Well done Lars for bringing this up.

PS personally I wouldn't call this sandbagging, I'd just call it showing off when used in club racing.

 

[Andy_J]

Speechless

Well if you are speechless and rolling your eyes you probably disagree with the OP's assessment. How about giving your reasons? Do you see it differently? Good to hear it from all sides.

 

[GuitarTech]

Is No Quali Sandbagging gonna become the next club rule added? Lol

My .02.
I was under the assumption club races were for fun, practicing racecraft and helping out others?
So why should it matter if someone chooses to qualify or not? Leagues are for serious racing!

The whole pressure/bully/arrogant good for youtube viewers thing is lame if you ask me.
I am pretty sure the fast guys don't change there racing style when trying to pass a slow or fast driver and use the same pressure.
Racing is about chasing down the guy in front of you or defending your position while handling the constant pressure.
Instead of getting upset when someone does this, why not try and watch and learn from the fast guys to see how and where they set up there passes, if and when they do pass you get a chance to follow their line for a bit and take some tips.

I am no alien by any means nor the slowest....mid packer at best
When I raced here, I use to not qualify for several reasons...
1. I would usually get into the lobby pretty late with little to no practice and didn't want to get in anyone's way.
2. I got tired of being punted or taken out.
If there was no apology I guess you could call me a bully as I would take a name & number, chase them down if I could then ride their ass for a few laps hoping for them to buckle under pressure and make a mistake
3. Since club races were for fun I use to enjoy starting from the rear as it gave me a chance to race with guys I usually wouldn't and would allow me to observe there driving style and learn their tendencies.
4. As I am not an alien it gave me a chance to try and fight through the field to help me get comfortable and practice my racecraft.
A lot of races by mid race I usually found myself racing alone in no man's land as I was too slow to keep up with leaders and slightly faster than the backmarkers.

How will anyone ever improve there skill if they're afraid of a faster guy behind them?

Edit: so my comment doesn't get taken the wrong way.... I see no harm in a fast person starting at the rear and working there way through cleanly....but if there pushing there way through it becomes an issue that needs to be dealt with.

There, they're, or their.....details matter

 

[Patrick Fournier]

As someone who, for a while, decided to start from the back for the extra challenge, I feel it important to defend my point of view. There is absolutely no malice intended from anyone doing it and there generally are some legitimate reasons to doing it.

Going back to my first club races last March or April of last year, I usually qualified mid-pack and it still felt a bit overwhelming racing with other people. The more I raced, the better I got, which is in line with what the racing club is all about: have fun, and try to get better.
As I got faster, like @Kurupt CDN said, I started to notice that I wasn't quite quick enough to match the leaders pace (which was sometimes a good .5 or 1 second faster per lap), and being .5 or 1 second faster per lap than the next person behind.That means that after two laps, I was just hotlapping for the next 10-15 minutes, only passing when the leaders made mistakes and went off, or passing backmarkers. It felt like I was not getting enough good practice racing in packs and it really hurt when I finally raced in an event where I qualified around 8th or 10th for instance, or worse, when I made a mistake and ended up further down in the pack, I wouldn't have the right strategies to overtake and I'd just make more mistakes...

That's when I started to not qualify and start from the back. I don't think I've bullied anyone while doing it, and when I did overdrive on a few occasions and dive bomb someone (I think I was a bit more aggressive in short races because it's a race against time to make up as many positions as possible), it really was not intentional and I felt quite foolish and mean doing it, and that's when I decided to stop doing it. Hell I remember having some fun fights with @Steve Le Gallez on a few occasions (either after starting from the back or after making a mistake). He fought me for position and based on his reactions after passing, he seemed to enjoy the challenge (if you didn't Steve, I'll apologize )

What I'm driving at is that yes it can seem frustrating and condescending for slower drivers to be "bullied", but rather than seeing it as a negative experience, use it to perfect your racecraft: after club races, everyone who was in a battle keeps saying they've had the time of their life fighting for position, either defending or attacking. There is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't feel the same way fighting off a faster guy that started from the back, either way you're fighting for position so just make his life harder. And to branch with another argument we've had a while ago about passing backmarkers, it's the same thing: the faster guys have the responsiblity to overtake in a safe manner. So regardless of whom you're racing, don't race with your mirrors, focus ahead. If the faster guys want to start from the back, don't worry about them and do your race. Defend like it was anyone else, you'll gain some worthy experience in the process.

That's my opinion. I totally understand how it can be annoying for some to see people starting from the back, but I don't believe it should automatically be seen as a negative thing.

 

[Georg Ortner]

@Andy Jackson I can explain my point of view, but you won't like it.

And tbh i have to choose my words wisely, given the hostile OP.
I don't want to escalate the situation.

But some of you guys are taking this way too seriously.
And funnily enough this is coming from people, who don't actually take part in the races, but feel the need to stir up drama, and think that everyone quicker than them has to be cheating.

I've participated in and streamed many RD Club races over the past years, always promoting RaceDepartment to my audience, only to be called a bully and an arrogant show off?

I gotta question who the bully is here..

A Club race is not a league race. And nobody is being ranked by his performance.

The only way for me to enjoy these events, is to find a bigger challenge than winning races from pole position, driving 60 min by myself.

Unfair driving should be punished. No doubt about that.
But i like to think my driving is anything but that.
Not saying i do not make mistakes either. Nobody is perfect.

But the day we start regulating racing due to somebodys feelings being hurt, not being able to whitstand the pressure of a car trying to overtake him, we might as well stop racing alltogether.

Where do we draw the line?
Do we forbid a quick driver to pick a slower car, because if he wins using that car, that would make the other drivers feel bad?

These sort of discussions and animosities are the reason many people i know stay away from RD.

What is the difference between Club and League racing?
Club events are for casual racing only. It's not about the winning or losing but about having a good driving experience. This is the perfect environment for your daily races as there is no pressure involved. Fun is King.

If we start applying this rule only to the slower half of the grid, i guess i will find another place to race.

 

[Andy_J]

And funnily enough this is coming from people, who don't actually take part in the races, but feel the need to stir up drama, and think that everyone quicker than them has to be cheating.

Thank you for your honest answer. You make some good points.

 

[Georg Ortner]

How am i supposed to interpret this generalization then?

Sadly these uber competitive chaps are the same type that can't seem to do a fast lap of most tracks without having to use more of it than the rest of us, but that's another story.

 

[Patrick Fournier]

Yeah I don't think it's necessarily a question of being faster = cheating but rather extra pressure on those who are not as quick and feel they're being put in an unnecessary stressful position (from their point of view).

 

[Georg Ortner]

You are disagreeing with a question @Andy Jackson?

 

[Andy_J]

How am i supposed to interpret this generalization then?

Nice little punch to the lower ribs there. But my generalization was just that. It only applies to those it applies to and if you mean it's OK to break the rules and not have it called cheating then that is fine by me but let's not make this thread about that shall we. It can remain civil and on point.

 

[Andy_J]

You are disagreeing with a question @Andy Jackson?

No, with a lack of suitable emoticons I am merely disagreeing with you and your attitude in general. I am not continuing with this discussion though. Some on here will take it as an excuse to have a go. Please discuss your reasoning with others and the OP.

 

[Case_]

not being able to whitstand the pressure of a car trying to overtake him

Then again, while I certainly agree with you're saying in general, you do have to see this from the other side as well. It really can be quite a pressure for a new driver to have an alien breathing down his neck centimeters behind him, trying to get in front of him as quickly as possible, and if it's right at the start amidst the general chaos of the first lap and first corner, it *does* increase the chance of an accident right at the start quite significantly.

Plus, as I've mentioned, some of the fast guys can generally be a bit too impatient and try to get in front a bit too quickly, and they can even at times feel like the slow guys in front of them get in their way. I'm not necessarily saying you are, but it happens quite a lot in my experience as a mid-fielder at best. But, as I've also mentioned, that's really something that happens in a lot of races regardless of whether or not people qualify.

But I honestly don't think this has a solution as easy as making a rule. It's a result of the fact that there's a pretty wide range of skill/pace on the grid of these events, and everybody involved wants to have as much fun as possible. And it's obvious the fast guys can often be somewhat bored in these races. But I'd still much rather see the general attitude of the "inconsiderate" (for the lack of the better word) drivers change and it being dealt with on a case-to-case basis, than another unnecessary regulation being implemented that will ultimately result in even more fast guys leaving on top of those who already did

 

[Georg Ortner]

Look @Andy Jackson, i will not explain to you, what you've stated in your comment.
If putting words in my mouth is your style of arguing, then there is no point in continuing the discussion.

@Martin Fiala
In my opinion, having an unexperienced driver trying to make a move, can be much more stressful, than an experienced driver.

 

[Enzo Fazzi]

I've had a couple of races with @Alen Terzić were I was faster than the whole field but then Alen, being an alien, was even faster by quite a margin. He'd drop back and turn it into a battle. I quite enjoyed that.
Maybe doing that is a solution for the faster guys that get bored?

 

[Matheus Machado]

And once again the slow guys are complaining about not being able to be on the same track as the so called aliens.

Really guys, getting annoyed by people overtaking you. Just move on and learn that a race is done with other cars on track.

Completely agree with Georg. It seems like RD is just doing everything to make the slower drivers feel good sacrificing the race of the faster ones.

 

[TobiasR]

Hmmm... I gotta be honest, I miss reverse grids and random grids, at least in the two race format. Fighting from the back is fun and rewarding every once in a while.

 

[Case_]

@Martin Fiala
In my opinion, having an unexperienced driver trying to make a move, can be much more stressful, than an experienced driver.

We all have our crosses to bear.

 

[Lars Hansen]

Okay, sh*tstorm it is, I guess.

First, to address one important thing that Patrick stated:

There is absolutely no malice intended from anyone doing it

I absolutely believe that. No question.
I do believe that people might not be aware of the ramifications of it though. Kinda why I raised the point.

One issue is the higher risk of incidents. This might not be intentional either, it could simply be because the slower guys have very different braking-points.
I've been on the ass-end of far too many reverse-grids, where a pile-up has happened because no-one in the rear thought anyone would be braking that soon.

The other, and to me more important, issue is the way it reflects on other less skilled players.
Carving your way through a grid might be fun (wouldn't know myself. ), but deliberately starting from the back also implicitly tells everyone ahead of you that you regard them as nothing more than moving chicanes.
It's condescending, okay? Pure and simple.

Look, if you're in the lead, and are coming up on a lapped car, there's an expectation for them to give you the racing-line so you can continue whatever duel you're involved in. And that's absolutely fine, I have no problem with showing respect to people who are clearly faster than me.
But you can't have it both ways.
If you want the slower guys to wherever possible stay out of your fights, is it too much to ask for you to return the favor?

Nobody is saying that anybody is too fast to race at RD.
But if you're going to join a race, then RACE. Don't treat it like it's something you do because you happened to be bored that day.
Believe it or not, the slower guys are actually driving to the best of their ability.
At least grant them the common courtesy to acknowledge that fact.

Oh, and the OP was apparently hostile. Wasn't actually intended that way.
Pretty sure I was going for exasperated.
Although I'll be the first to admit that my people-skills are...somewhat lacking.
Speaking of which:

The only way for me to enjoy these events, is to find a bigger challenge than winning races from pole position, driving 60 min by myself

Okay.
Well, I'm sorry that the Club racers can't offer you a higher quality competition.
I'll see what I can do to remedy that.
In the meantime, is there a possibility that other people might find that attitude just ever so slightly on the arrogant side?

 

[jimortality]

Is it me or do other sims have these kind of issues or just raceroom?