Dispensing with the sandbags.

[Lars Hansen]

I'm not entirely sure how to do this politely, to be honest.
Then again, I'm not racing much these days due to time-constraints, so I don't have any particular personal stake in it.
So I'm just going to state a personal opinion, and people can take it for whatever they like.

But can we please get people to stop sandbagging during qualification in the Club races?
I'm not out to start a witch-hunt, so I'm not naming any names. This is simply a general observation.
I started noticing it a few months ago, and now it's becoming just blatantly obvious.
I get that it's a way to challenge yourself against what might be a weaker field, and if you have a YT channel, I'm sure it makes for exhilarating viewing for your followers.

Unfortunately, it also means that you regard the rest of the Club racers as nothing more than cannon-fodder, which is not only f*cking annoying, it's also arrogant to the point of contempt.
Besides, you're not fooling anybody. Once you've raced against the same people 3-4 times you get a pretty good idea of their pace, which means that now you have a bunch of people in front of you who know they'll have to let you through at some point. And if some of these people are newcomers or simply less experienced, you've just increased the chances of a racing incident manifold, for no reason whatsoever.

You wouldn't do it if this was a league-race.
You wouldn't do it if there was a MP ranking-system in place.
So pretty please, with sugar on top.......

<mod-edit: removed foul language>

 

[Lars Hansen]

Wait, what? So it is now forbidden to have a stream even showing the names of the people involved? You're kidding, right? This wasn't in the rules before.

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, it has always been illegal.
Or rather, anyone in the streams have the right to ask for it to be removed.
It has nothing to do with RD as such, it's a result of the ToS of both YT and Twitch.
You can't show anything that makes a person uniquely identifiable in a stream, and since the RD races are run under peoples real names.....

Personally, I couldn't care less either way, and have no plans to ask for anything being removed.
But it is something to consider.

 

[Georg Ortner]

If there are any people (1 or 100 doesn't matter) feeling that for whatever reason they feel intimidated with (vocal?) faster drivers chasing them from the rear of the field (for no apperant reason, as to use your words we are racing, and racing means doing a qualy) then all drivers should just take that on board as an opinion / view and try to do something constructive with it. People are obviously concerned and try to improve things.

1. This thread was started by a user who according to himself hasn't been racing much lately.
2. The OP has been anything but constructive in the way he presented his opinion.
3. RD should have its own principles, rather than trying to desperately adhere to a vocal minority.

It has always been the rule to ask for permission to stream.

It's never been a rule of the RD Club, until it was added today.
Not once have i heard a complaint from a user being on the stream. On the contrary.

 

[BhZ]

I am dealing with the absolute newcomers in simracing in the Premium Driver Academy and the general sense there is that even our social clubs are a massive barrier for most people to take. You should really not underestimate that.

I don't doubt but at the same time i could say that a simple driver academy for a couple of hours is not enough to start racing and i've often seen the results. If to that you add the fact that every time someone say "practice a bit" an army of admins come to say that "RD doesn't force you to practice, you can race without practicing" then you get a lot of people that won't learn, will forever be scared of racing because they don't know what to do and they are not prepared for what it's coming. Hell, i'd be scared to race among people in a track i don't know.
I say this because i think RD should focus a bit more on the preparation of the newcomers and that the community is willing to help, it already showed it multiple times. I often find myself giving advice to people who don't have much experience. I'm sure that for many the first races are really stressful and part of the reason is the fact that they are not prepared for them...

they feel intimidated with (vocal?) faster drivers chasing them

We got admins on teamspeak in case of vocal aggression and we have a report system in place to report this kind of people. I must say i've never been in a race where i've heard a vocal aggression by a fast guy. What i often hears are people in the midfield shouting when they have an incident with someone else. If they are not willing to report those people, it's their problem and there's nothing we fast guy or RD can do.

racing means doing a qualy

Not really. Slow guys won't learn how to defend or how to deal with pressure if no one is aroud them. The pressure we put on a slow guy is similar to the pressure a guy of the same pace can put on the one in front of him. The fast guys are generally very very clean. I've had many close races with fast guys and there was hardly any contact. We all look for a challenge in the end.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Like I said above @Georg Ortner the rule was multi interpretable and now corrected as that was the point of rule #11 from to start when we added it. Don't stream club races without asking for permission to the drivers.

We haven't got many complaints about it either but we did in the past and taking people's privacy concerns is good practice. If there are any privacy lawyers that would like to take a look at this please by all means do so and let us know. We have looked for legal advice on a few issues in the past (privacy, skins, etc) and I follow what we have been advised to do.

I get the feeling that whatever we say here is the start of a new discussion so feel free to drop me a line if you feel the need to discuss privacy sensitive information or legal matters.

 

[Case_]

It's really bad practice to just fire up streams and disclose private discussions on teamspeak and real names without people knowing or giving consent.

The closest to getting a permission even staff members have ever come to was saying "hey, you're on stream now". Very rarely did people add "is it OK?", and only ever when they were going to include TS. And plenty of people put up streams or recordings with TS included without ever asking anyone, and the staff know about them and didn't seem to care in the slightest, only ever speaking up about how you should never include TS in your videos in discussions such as this one.

And never before has it been said that it's forbidden to even show names in stream/on video. That's a completely new thing that just came up now.

I have no problem with saying every race I'm streaming or recording it. I think it's silly to do so in 2018 when half the grid streams and records their races, but fair enough, I can do it as a common courtesy to people. If you however explicitly require getting permissions from everyone, like it says in the rules, and will be policing it (and not in a way like you did with TS) then you've just killed community streaming of RD events.

And honestly, the whole "getting permissions" stuff is just flawed. Am I supposed to keep recordings of every single person saying "yes, I give you my permission" for every race in case somebody complains about not really giving permission later? Am I responsible for people who don't even respond to such inquiries (the main reason why asking permissions for TS was hard enough, barely anybody responds to that, be it on TS or in the forums). Or should I get it from them in writing? And how long should I be keeping records to be in the clear? It's really easy to say "you have to get permissions", but if you ignore the technical issues that go with it, such request is virtually impossible to follow.

 

[Georg Ortner]

I'm sorry @Bram Hengeveld , but i don't see how this was multi interpretable.

It's strictly forbidden to record and broadcast TeamSpeak voice-chat via YouTube, Twitch and/or other media unless you have permission from all the drivers in the session.

No mentioning of driver names whatsoever.

But ok, it was changed now and we all have to live with the consequences.
I hope you're all happy now.

I'm gonna go race somewhere else for the time being.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

What exactly are the consequences?. As you say nobody has ever complained and probably nobody ever will.

Most people, me included, love it when races get streamed so just asking for permission as a disclaimer won't hurt anybody.

 

[John Wiesenmueller]

Wouldn't it make more sense to add a line that you allow that your real name can be expressed on club race streams? As mentioned before, the streams are are important to get new people addicted to sim racing and real names are common in use and how should a streamer always ask joining people?

 

[Lars Hansen]

Well, first of all, I'm not racing much these days because the RD Club races happened to collide with my work-schedule.
That doesn't mean that
a ) I don't plan to race as and when I can, or
b ) that I've stopped caring about the Club races.

With that out of the way, let's try a different tack.
First of all, these aren't battles for position. That would imply that the outcome was somehow in doubt. The final outcome is a foregone conclusion, the only thing that is to be resolved is how much time is wasted getting past the slower guys.
And if you seriously think I have a chance in hell of defending against someone whose lap-times are 2-3 seconds faster than mine, I thank you for the confidence in my abilities, but you're wrong.
Through the thread, there have been various opinions on this. Some see it as a challenge, others are indifferent to the whole thing.
I have stated my own personal opinion, which you may or may not agree with.
But even if you don't agree with it, consider the following:

I'm in P15, trying to get past P14, when when one of the guys starting from the back suddenly appears in my mirrors.
I now realistically have one of two choices; I can either pull to the side, and do a quick lift-off to let him through, in which case there is no battle, and the whole thing becomes an exercise in futility.
Or I can try and defend my position for as long as I can, which will slow me down allowing P14 to put some distance between us.
In either case, it interferes with my battle for P14 which is the one that interests me because it's the one I might actually win.
If you're in a battle for the lead, you'd much prefer not having to deal with lapping any backmarkers, correct?
So why isn't the opposite equally true?

 

[Case_]

You can't show anything that makes a person uniquely identifiable in a stream, and since the RD races are run under peoples real names...

You think showing a virtual car and a nametag in a game makes a person uniquely identifiable? I think you push the privacy concerns a bit too far if you do. Half the people I race with I'm not even sure what nationality they are, let alone how they look. And I race them and interact with them almost daily. Or if their real name really is what they're saying it is, incidentally - the fact RD asks people to use their real names doesn't really mean anything, it's not legally binding to do so and you could easily be using a fake name without anyone ever knowing, provided you're smart about it.

The best you can do when you see a virtual car with a familiar name in a sim is assume, but certainly not uniquely identify. If I really wanted to, I could stream a race where every single driver would be called "Lars Hansen", and I certainy wouldn't need to have access to cloning machine to do so. There's nothing uniquely identifying about it and your privacy would not be breached by me doing it. It would be childish and maybe in a bad taste (if that's the correct expression to use here, not sure), but it would have nothing to do with privacy. I mean, it really is comparable to racing someone called "Genghis Khan" or "Justin Bieber" - it tells you nothing about the identity of the actual person behind the wheel.

 

[Georg Ortner]

For exactly this reason, @Bram Hengeveld

And honestly, the whole "getting permissions" stuff is just flawed. Am I supposed to keep recordings of every single person saying "yes, I give you my permission" for every race in case somebody complains about not really giving permission later? Am I responsible for people who don't even respond to such inquiries (the main reason why asking permissions for TS was hard enough, barely anybody responds to that, be it on TS or in the forums). Or should I get it from them in writing? And how long should I be keeping records to be in the clear? It's really easy to say "you have to get permissions", but if you ignore the technical issues that go with it, such request is virtually impossible to follow.

Agree with @John Wiesenmueller

 

[BhZ]

First of all, these aren't battles for position. That would imply that the outcome was somehow in doubt.

False. Plus, you never know what is going to happen. The fast guys can make mistakes as well, you know?

If you're in a battle for the lead, you'd much prefer not having to deal with lapping any backmarkers, correct?

Yes, but it happens anyway, doesn't it?

 

[whip]

meh

 

[Case_]

there's some serious snowflakes in this thread, "don't show my real name" "don't let strangers listen to me on coms" *said in girly voice*

seriously.. man up, does it invade your "safe space"?

And this is exactly the kind of attitude this discussion does NOT need at all.

 

[JoelK]

I must admit I've been been guilty of this a couple of times(Though, only when there had been a small grid and guys i know and who know me).

I understand your guys point, but there is one thing i'd like to point out is it can be really boring from race to another to just fall in to the "no-mans land" with no-one to race with for a position, which can lead even to not even participating at all

Isn't the point of clubs(At least how i've understood it) to have some good close racing and some banter in the side of it with friends, but there's none of if you're +3sec to the front and -7sec to rear and no way to that change with just driving.

I've never done it if i know there's guys with similar pace with me, and knowing there's gonna be fighting goin' on.

One thing is that if you decide to sandbag, you shouldn't start being too eager about the overtakes. It was a concious choice and people should deal with it accordingly and not make moves into non-usual overtaking spots because you just know you can go faster through there.

I think this shouldn't be a problem if guys use common sense.

Edit: Didnt realise this was under R3E but This was my 2 cents from i know from the AC club

 

[Lars Hansen]

You think showing a virtual car and a nametag in a game makes a person uniquely identifiable?

I don't think anything. As I said, the whole streaming thing is a matter of supreme indifference to me.
I'm merely stating what the ToS say.

Yes, but it happens anyway, doesn't it?

Sure it does. Just as it occasionally happens that the leaders go off for whatever reason, and end up behind me before they can rejoin.
And that's just racing, I agree.
But in this case, we're talking about people making a deliberate attempt to put me in that position. It's a conscious act.
It's like if a backmarker went out of his way to block the leaders, just because he felt like it.
You really think that would go unnoticed?

 

[BhZ]

It's like if a backmarker went out of his way to block the leaders, just because he felt like it.

It's a completely different situation, don't make examples that don't fit.

But in this case, we're talking about people making a deliberate attempt to put me in that position. It's a conscious act.

A good racer is able to handle most situations. The only way to handle them is to practice and to find yourself in those situations more than once. See it as a way to improve. Also, you lose less than half a second for an overtake. Everyone choose to handle the situation the way he wants. You could decide to let him go without defending or defend, your choice. Don't forget that that same guy will have to overtake p14.

 

[Case_]

I don't think anything. As I said, the whole streaming thing is a matter of supreme indifference to me.
I'm merely stating what the ToS say.

Well, you were implying that YouTube ToS somehow come into play in the context of streaming RD races and showing people's names in the process, so you're not "merely stating what the ToS say".

 

[Lars Hansen]

Well, you were implying that YouTube ToS somehow come into play in the context of streaming RD races and showing people's names in the process, so you're not "merely stating what the ToS say".

They do come into play, at least technically.
https://www.youtube.com/t/privacy_guidelines
For content to be considered for removal, an individual must be uniquely identifiable by image, voice, full name, National Insurance number, bank account number or contact information (e.g. home address, email address)

As Bram said, no-one has ever complained about it, and probably no-one ever will.
But it's not as if I'm making this stuff up.

 

[BhZ]

They do come into play, at least technically.
https://www.youtube.com/t/privacy_guidelines
For content to be considered for removal, an individual must be uniquely identifiable by image, voice, full name, National Insurance number, bank account number or contact information (e.g. home address, email address)

As Bram said, no-one has ever complained about it, and probably no-one ever will.
But it's not as if I'm making this stuff up.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but if my name appears on a video, i'm still not uniquely identifiable.