Dispensing with the sandbags.

[Lars Hansen]

I'm not entirely sure how to do this politely, to be honest.
Then again, I'm not racing much these days due to time-constraints, so I don't have any particular personal stake in it.
So I'm just going to state a personal opinion, and people can take it for whatever they like.

But can we please get people to stop sandbagging during qualification in the Club races?
I'm not out to start a witch-hunt, so I'm not naming any names. This is simply a general observation.
I started noticing it a few months ago, and now it's becoming just blatantly obvious.
I get that it's a way to challenge yourself against what might be a weaker field, and if you have a YT channel, I'm sure it makes for exhilarating viewing for your followers.

Unfortunately, it also means that you regard the rest of the Club racers as nothing more than cannon-fodder, which is not only f*cking annoying, it's also arrogant to the point of contempt.
Besides, you're not fooling anybody. Once you've raced against the same people 3-4 times you get a pretty good idea of their pace, which means that now you have a bunch of people in front of you who know they'll have to let you through at some point. And if some of these people are newcomers or simply less experienced, you've just increased the chances of a racing incident manifold, for no reason whatsoever.

You wouldn't do it if this was a league-race.
You wouldn't do it if there was a MP ranking-system in place.
So pretty please, with sugar on top.......

<mod-edit: removed foul language>

 

[Alen Terzić]

I don't really see a problem with it if the faster driver is respectfull to the slower ones. I haven't sandbagged in qually per say, but i have dropped back to have some battles with the guys behind when i was leading. It might seem like i'm being a bit of a dousche, but really i just don't wanna do hotlaps for 20+ minutes.

 

[RasmusP]

I read that all and I'm just gonna say:
Racedepartment stands out for the fairness and the responsibility each staff member carries with best intentions for everyone.

This isn't really about fast guys starting from the back. It's about bad behavior on track no matter the pace. As it seems the bad guys here are for some reasons also these fast guys.

But for real: if you get bullied, start a pm, make a video, tell the race host and/or talk directly to the "bully". Problem will get solved! That's one reason we staffs are here for you. To help with this!

No need to start a bitch fight over this. If someone is unfair, talk about it. About each and every case until the rate of new "incidents" goes down.

I wish you all a great next race. Don't feel bad, don't feel attacked, don't fight about this if you are not part of the ones who are to blame.
Just enjoy racing as you did before and if something comes up, talk about that directly and if you want, get a staffy to help out

 

[BhZ]

So now it matters what we think about the slow guys? If we start from the back or qualify at the front, it doesn't change the way we see our opponents. It's about having a different challenge. I said this in 2017 and apparently it didn't change with 2018...It's so easy to offend people in 2018.

 

[Christian Moreau]

Hmm, touchy subject I see.

I don't really see the issue. So long as the person with the better pace drives respectfully and makes the right moves, which they do most of the time, I don't see what the problem is. This is racing after all. There's no real rule against this in club racing, and if you really take this type of thing personally, I don't know what to tell you. Sim racing is by nature, competitive. People want to improve/challenge themselves, and have fun doing it. If that means starting at the back of the grid and cutting their way through à la Sebastien Vettel Abu Dhabi 2012, then so be it. To start putting words into the mouths of these people is a little out of line. In the end, we're all playing a game, and we all just want to have fun.

Really guys, I feel I have to mention this. What has happened here? When I used to drive regularly in the club, everyone co-existed just fine, regardless of skill, and it was a truly fun club to be a part of. I can recall tons of memories from the past year and a half that put a smile on my face. There are lots of great people here. Things seem have gotten increasingly touchy on certain subjects, and I think that's a real shame.

 

[natedogg1867]

As an outsider, I would have to agree with Christian above.

You dont go into a race expecting everyone to get out of your way, or to never have any competition for your position on the track.

From my experience (mostly in public lobbies so take it with a grain of salt), many of the fast guys start in the back just to give themselves a bit more of a challenge, and things go just fine. You will occasionally get an A-hole that forces their way through, and causes wrecks, but from what I understand, RD club events arent like that at all.

Most people seem to be respectful of others and pass appropriately.

That said, it should be fairly simple to reprimand an individual if they purposely cause mayhem. If someone is purposely run off the track or spun out... bring it up to the stewards or the RD staff afterwards.

While I agree with some points in the OP, much of it kind of sounds like... RD club events are meant to be fun and non-competitive, and everyone should be entertained... except the fast guys.

If you force a rule that requires them to qualify up front, but only 1 or 2 people that are quick join a race... what happens after the first corner when they pull away never to see another driver again? Im sure they can hotlap on their own time just the same.

And if it means anything, I've never known @Georg Ortner to be a dirty driver... If anything, he is one of the more fair drivers around, and that can be seen in any of his streamed races. Bit odd to single him out honestly.

Really guys, I feel I have to mention this. What has happened here? When I used to drive regularly in the club, everyone co-existed just fine, regardless of skill, and it was a truly fun club to be a part of. I can recall tons of memories from the past year and a half that put a smile on my face. There are lots of great people here. Things seem have gotten increasingly touchy on certain subjects, and I think that's a real shame.

Clearly there is only 1 solution here... RD RR club events need "The real Canadian Prime Minister" back

 

[Yetch]

For me, a mere observer the timing of this argument seems a bit off, a ranking system is on the cards, thus everyone will be in their pigeon hole and this problem will be mute, I myself have been guilty of this so called sandbagging (not on RD might I add) quite regularly on the open servers though, started last and finished last on more than one occasion and started last and finished first as well, no cars or drivers were damaged in this exercise, in fact I would recommend it to improve ones craft. Every now and again forums return to the school playground with certain topics. There is not a driver here who hasn't been t-boned by an over zealous Numbnut in their pursuit of greatness, normally lap one, turn one and unfortunately that is one of the many catastrophe's that bestow our little virtual world, may I remind everyone at this point that our little virtual world, in the grand scheme of things, is tiny the last thing a small community needs is angst and disharmony, we're all here for the same thing and just as in life, we all don't have the same goals or indeed the same abilities to fulfil said ambitions. The trick is to take the odd accident on the chin but come down hard on persistent offenders, hence the reason I drive in a club that has a modicum of control BUT it is called Race Department and not Sunday Drive Department so, personally I think the more red tape the scarier it becomes for newbies. The majority of people that go to the trouble of joining a club, do it to further their enjoyment and are aware of the basic rules of racing a car, what they generally don't have is race craft, that comes from holding off faster drivers, keeping one's cool under pressure, having the ability to follow someone for lap after lap, looking for where you're quicker and most important of all, knowing where you are on the track in relation to those around you. I have watched countless video's where the minute someone appears in the mirror you can physically hear their arsehole contract and they'll be lucky to make 2 turns before disaster, this is not the person in the mirrors fault, it's the drivers lack of experience. If you don't like to be in front of people then how are you ever going to win? If it's not the winning but the taking part you prefer then no one is stopping anyone doing anything. By the way sandbagging is totally the wrong term, what this is, is talented people wanting to show their subscribers something other than an empty track and most importantly, promoting my favourite pastime (and this club) to a broader audience. Complaining of not liking faster drivers behind, only in front, beggars belief, chaps, can you hear yourselves?

 

[Kurupt CDN]

Reading through this.....if this is really a concerning issue that needs to be addressed. RD needs to decide if there here to offer casual fun club races for all or cater to new comers of sim racing.

The only other solution is they start launching 2 servers on race day. One for racing and the other for new comers so everyone is happy and theres no issues with people getting offended.
Once new comers get up to speed and feel comfortable, jump in and try the race server.

Than the argument of lack of staff and smaller grids arises.......back to the question in my opening paragraph.

 

[Christian Moreau]

I have watched countless video's where the minute someone appears in the mirror you can physically hear their arsehole contract and they'll be lucky to make 2 turns before disaster, this is not the person in the mirrors fault, it's the drivers lack of experience.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[kedy89]

[sarcasm]
How about introducing an Alien tag (similar to the Premium tag), and everyone that's been given it is no longer welcome in club races? Seeing that they only intimidate and discourage slower drivers that be the right thing to do.
[/sarcasm]


Honestly I don't see a problem with it, unless the person in question drives others off track in order to move up. But then it's probably safe to assume he does that no matter where he starts from, and you can simply report him. I did start from the back a few times in the past, the only reason being that I wanted to have battles for position for most part of the race, because those are fun.

As for setups, I've said quite often that in my opinion you gain the most time by getting your lines and braking points sorted. If you still want one from the get-go, as Ish mentioned he and Georg have plenty on youtube, then there also are the setup threads by Mr. C and Mike.

With the hostility shown towards faster drivers over the last couple of months, it doesn't really surprise me that a whole bunch of the faster guys I used to race against regularly seem to have left RD more or less.

 

[Calvyn White]

This is all about starting at the back of the grid cos you know you're faster than everybody else plain and simple. If I was that fast I would not be racing in the club I would find something else for the challenge not for reasons of entertaining my YouTube subscribers or to prove how consistently fast I am.
Most will find the challenge. If you're a fast driver why on earth would you want to race in a club when you're consistently winning by any means. Is it about showing off? Is it about the faster driver who is a YouTuber uses other driver as guinea pig to entertain himself and others just because he can without a thought of respect.
By starting at the back of the grid knowing full well he has a possibility of ruining somebody else's race just to get to the front in time. And are prepared to get a further ban just to prove how quick they are, for the sake of his ego and subscribers entertainment. Which I have witnessed.
A faster driver who takes the decision because he's faster than everybody else to start at the back of the grid is selfish. And thinks nothing else except his own amusement. And has no regard of the feelings of the other drivers.
Quite frankly if you don't qualify you don't race. Which I can only see that being abused as well. The club I know is meant to be fun not a circus of entertainment of once selfish needs. Find a challenge that equals your abilities. If and when I get that fast I know I will just like many others they move on and leave the slower guys to their fun. I have no problem that some drivers stream and make videos of their races it's the way they do it is the problem. I am not a tool of amusement for others.

 

[natedogg1867]

If you're a fast driver why on earth would you want to race in a club when you're consistently winning by any means.

Because you enjoy the company of those in the event with you?

This kind of sounds like a new form of elitism where you dont want other people to have fun, and want to exclude them because they are a bit faster than you.

And wasnt that the whole point of the RD club events in the first place? If it isnt meant to be competitive, why are you chuffed if someone else that starts behind you is quicker? And if they pass cleanly while applying normal racing pressure, why is that bad?

 

[Calvyn White]

Because you enjoy the company of those in the event with you?

This kind of sounds like a new form of elitism where you dont want other people to have fun, and want to exclude them because they are a bit faster than you.

And wasnt that the whole point of the RD club events in the first place? If it isnt meant to be competitive, why are you chuffed if someone else that starts behind you is quicker? And if they pass cleanly while applying normal racing pressure, why is that bad?

Yeah well right this has nothing to do with how fast they are this is about how they prove how fast they are buying using others as guinea pigs as entertainment try reading my post again and stick to the point. And try not to read between the lines as all sentences has relevance to each other. How is it fun being used in a club for others entertainment as simple as that.

 

[PicoBp]

Yeah well right this has nothing to do with how fast they are this is about how they prove how fast they are buying using others as guinea pigs as entertainment try reading my post again and stick to the point. And try not to read between the lines as all sentences has relevance to each other. How is it fun being used in a club for others entertainment as simple as that.

So what you're saying is I shouldn't have good fun with whoever is slower than me? When the Club is all about fun and not pace and competition? Many of us don't come here to win, but to spend some time racing cars, tracks or people they like. If you think that a faster driver should go for best results, and should not be enjoying a good battle at the end or middle of the field, then I think you have a problem understanding the Club's purpose yourself.

Again, there's the egoist chap, that does this to show off. Good for him, let him enjoy a cheap achievement, if he behaves properly on track. Whoever's an idiot, a risk, a bully, report them. Simple as that!

P.S.: Next time I want to overtake, I should be frustrated if I hurt the feelings of the driver in front of me... Seriously?

 

[natedogg1867]

Yeah well right this has nothing to do with how fast they are this is about how they prove how fast they are buying using others as guinea pigs as entertainment try reading my post again and stick to the point.

You are far too hostile, so i will refrain from commenting further.

 

[Calvyn White]

No that's not what I'm saying at all and I think you know it. The thread is about starting at the back of the grid without qualifying because they know they're faster than everybody else on the grid for the sake of a video. And slower members of the club used as guinea pigs for somebody else's entertainment and amusement.

 

[Calvyn White]

You are far too hostile, so i will refrain from commenting further.

 

[PicoBp]

No that's not what I'm saying at all and I think you know it.

No, I actually don't. Your phrasing is so general and, that it doesn't suggest any difference between one that does this for fun, and one that just wants to show off in your view. By the way, who decides? If I'd do this for a fake sense of achievement, but I don't stream at all, does it make it a right thing to do? If I do this for having some good battles, and no other intention, I'm a good guy right? And if I cause mayhem in the process and ram through everyone?

If you have an issue with a specific person, report it. The Golden Rules are there for a reason. But please, pretty please, stop accusing every single guy faster than you, but starting behind, that they do this to disrespect others.

 

[Calvyn White]

Ok I'm wrong and I cannot correctly express my opinion that can be understood. No offence was intended but I do give up as I no longer give a . Have a nice day people.

 

[whip]

i don't get what the fuss is about? i really dont

this thread is just created for no reason and comes across as butthurt

who cares where the fast guys start? if they are at the back all the better for me, gives me a better chance at a good result, worrying about them behind you just shows you can be pressured easy and can't cope with the pressure, moaning like a little kid on the forum about a non issue like this is stupid, they are fun races, why you taking it so seriously?

 

[Warren Dawes]

Wow! This is a rather sad thread to read, the Racing Club must have changed since I used to race here.
As one of the founding members of the Racing Club, which was a spin off from my first concept of the original Friendly Development Series, perhaps I can explain what the original ideals of the Racing Club was supposed to be.
It was about friendly racing, still competitive of course, but in a different way to "League Racing" which is more serious competition. In the Racing Club, the emphasis was on clean racing, driver development, encouraging new drivers to put their toe in the water, and not for race winning to be the primary focus. In most cases, that's how the Club Members participated.

When I first started on-line racing, people like Bram (and I could also name many top class racers here) used to deliberately wait for me (and others) to catch up and continue racing with me to help my development, and also to add to the fun. I loved the atmosphere, and continued racing here and learning to improve. NEVER, did I consider these guys to be trying to belittle me or boost their ego's, we all knew they were faster but they didn't care about winning every race. The League Races were for that.
Throughout my on-line career, this friendly atmosphere was carried through to the main Race Sections I participated in. Probably the best example was in the GTL Racing Club. Almost every guy in that Club raced in the true "spirit" of the Club, friendly, clean, respectful, and left the ego's behind. Yes, many of us qualified at the back, drove slower cars in the mixed races, waited for others when they spun off or got left behind. We were mostly all on TS, chatting and laughing during and after the races, gave post race reports on the forum about the fun we had battling with others, and very little about who won (because it didn't matter). I never once experienced someone accusing others of "sandbagging" (if that is meant in a derogatory way), most were appreciative of having someone to race with rather than a lonely race (at the front, mid pack, or at the tail).
BTW, dis-respectful, overly aggressive, or abusive driving was not tolerated and would be dealt with.

So, if this "spirit" has been lost, then maybe RD should consider closing the Racing Club and substituting more competitive League style racing, with drivers racing to their full potential. Hopefully, that might limit any negative "sandbagging".

It would be sad to see the "spirit" lost, but perhaps times have changed.