Dispensing with the sandbags.

[Lars Hansen]

I'm not entirely sure how to do this politely, to be honest.
Then again, I'm not racing much these days due to time-constraints, so I don't have any particular personal stake in it.
So I'm just going to state a personal opinion, and people can take it for whatever they like.

But can we please get people to stop sandbagging during qualification in the Club races?
I'm not out to start a witch-hunt, so I'm not naming any names. This is simply a general observation.
I started noticing it a few months ago, and now it's becoming just blatantly obvious.
I get that it's a way to challenge yourself against what might be a weaker field, and if you have a YT channel, I'm sure it makes for exhilarating viewing for your followers.

Unfortunately, it also means that you regard the rest of the Club racers as nothing more than cannon-fodder, which is not only f*cking annoying, it's also arrogant to the point of contempt.
Besides, you're not fooling anybody. Once you've raced against the same people 3-4 times you get a pretty good idea of their pace, which means that now you have a bunch of people in front of you who know they'll have to let you through at some point. And if some of these people are newcomers or simply less experienced, you've just increased the chances of a racing incident manifold, for no reason whatsoever.

You wouldn't do it if this was a league-race.
You wouldn't do it if there was a MP ranking-system in place.
So pretty please, with sugar on top.......

<mod-edit: removed foul language>

 

[Lars Hansen]

Is it me or do other sims have these kind of issues or just raceroom?

It's pretty common, or at least it has been.
Haven't been racing much elsewhere to know for sure.

 

[jimortality]

It's pretty common, or at least it has been.
Haven't been racing much elsewhere to know for sure.

Yeah, was just wondering how they dealt with these issues

 

[Case_]

Of the three racing clubs I frequent most here, I see similar issues in two of them. One of them discusses them more openly and more frequently (for better or worse), while in the other one, they kinda fester away from sight.

 

[Georg Ortner]

The other, and to me more important, issue is the way it reflects on other less skilled players.
Carving your way through a grid might be fun (wouldn't know myself. ), but deliberately starting from the back also implicitly tells everyone ahead of you that you regard them as nothing more than moving chicanes.
It's condescending, okay? Pure and simple.

I'm sorry you see it this way.
But don't project your own view onto others.

 

[Deleted member 387850]

I'm genuinely really interested in both sides of this debate and it's cool to see both arguments represented. I watched your stream last night @Georg Ortner and really enjoyed it (great drive by the way!). Also your driving was clean and I certainly didn't see any incidents that were as a result of you making your way through the field. That said, I could see how in the early laps some drivers might feel like fish in a barrel being picked off one-by-one.

One thing I love is the depth of grids on RD. There is generally a great mix of lap times that means you can enjoy a battle wherever you are in the field. It would be a great shame if the fastest guys were put off because they struggle to find enjoyment in a lights to flag victory, but equally as a community I'm sure we all want to see grids grow. That involves removing as many barriers to entry for newcomers as possible. And the newcomers that are struggling at the back of the grid today whilst they learn the ropes could be the drivers that end up giving everyone a run for their money tomorrow.

 

[Lars Hansen]

I'm sorry you see it this way.
But don't project your own view onto others.

Oh, I doubt I'm the only one.
But fair enough, let's just assume that I am.

In that case, what would you call the rest of the grid?
You've already stated that you don't regard anyone at RD as a similarly paced racers, thus you have to start from the back to get any enjoyment.
So you obviously wouldn't call them opponents.
Nor are they apparently moving chicanes.
What then?
Pace-cars?
Humanoid AI?

My point here is that starting from the back when you know you're much, much faster is the equivalent of a prize-fighter walking into a bar to pick a fight, just to see how many people he can knock out before the police arrives.
And that might very well be a highly impressive number of people.
None of which asked to be a part of that particular experiment.

 

[Case_]

Carving your way through a grid might be fun (wouldn't know myself. ), but deliberately starting from the back also implicitly tells everyone ahead of you that you regard them as nothing more than moving chicanes.
It's condescending, okay? Pure and simple.

I don't think this is fair. It's only condescending if you choose to interpret it that way IMO. Yes, by willingly starting from the back, he's basically telling you he's much faster than you. But don't you already know that? I certainly know Georg (and many others, obviously) will run circles around me any time he wants to. Whether he's on pole or last on the grid doesn't change that in the slightest. If he's starting in the back, he's just trying to have fun. There's no implied disrespect other than the one you bring yourself.

You can certainly view his decision as a move that implies he only considers you a moving chicane. But you can just as easily interpret it in a completely different way - that he considers you a challenging enough opponent to try and overtake. Or you can also simply ignore it completely and focus on your own race, dealing with the opponents one at a time. It really is that simple - your attitude is what ultimately decides how you perceive such move, not his.

And you can actually even learn a lot both from him trying to overtake you, as well as from him driving in front of you once he does, so you can even choose to welcome such occurences, however brief they may be. I know I did enjoy following Georg tremendously in yesterday's race, happy with the fact he wasn't getting away as quickly as I would expect, and also watching his lines and braking points carefully.

If someone starts from the back and then just ploughs through the field with complete disrespect, then obviously he *does* seem to only consider you a moving chicane. But that doesn't mean everyone that decides to start from the back does. Please, let's judge people's actions based on what they actually do, not on what we assume they did (or will do, even).

 

[Patrick Fournier]

The other, and to me more important, issue is the way it reflects on other less skilled players.
Carving your way through a grid might be fun (wouldn't know myself. ), but deliberately starting from the back also implicitly tells everyone ahead of you that you regard them as nothing more than moving chicanes.
It's condescending, okay? Pure and simple.

Look, if you're in the lead, and are coming up on a lapped car, there's an expectation for them to give you the racing-line so you can continue whatever duel you're involved in. And that's absolutely fine, I have no problem with showing respect to people who are clearly faster than me.
But you can't have it both ways.
If you want the slower guys to wherever possible stay out of your fights, is it too much to ask for you to return the favor?

Nobody is saying that anybody is too fast to race at RD.
But if you're going to join a race, then RACE. Don't treat it like it's something you do because you happened to be bored that day.
Believe it or not, the slower guys are actually driving to the best of their ability.
At least grant them the common courtesy to acknowledge that fact.

It's difficult for me to see how starting from the back and passing slower drivers going up the field appears to be more arrogant (and condescending) than lapping backmarkers... To me, it's basically the same situation, just delayed. In fact, many have voiced their opinion that it is stressful getting out of the way of faster cars lapping them, so it's the same problem either way. The risk of accident is more or less subjected to the same factors such as different braking points, except maybe for more traffic which usually occurs at the start of a race.

Again, I understand your point and how it could be taken that way, but there's no compromise really.

 

[Lars Hansen]

@Martin Fiala @Patrick Fournier You're both saying basically the same thing, so I'm lumping the answer into one.

First of all, the worthy opponent argument. Doesn't hold water.
Had I been an opponent worthy of an overtake, the battle would've been taking place in qualifying, not in the race.

Nor can I simply ignore whoever is behind me. If I have to defend my position, it also changes my line making it less likely to overtake whoever is in front of me.
I could obviously just pull to the side, and let him pass, but I shouldn't have to.

And yes, the situation would occur naturally when being lapped, but......
Let's say my laptime is 1:40, and the leaders time is 1:38. Not entirely unrealistic, I'm usually somewhere around 2-3 seconds slower than the fast guys.
Meaning that after 50 laps I'll get lapped. Fifty laps at 1:40 is 80 minutes plus change.
So in a standard 45min race, the situation would never occur in the first place.
And even if it did, it would be at the end of the race when everyone is spread out, instead of at the start of the race, when there is traffic everywhere.
So I agree that the situation isn't entirely avoidable.
But there's no need to seek it out.

Granted, there is something to be said about the attitude on both sides.
Here's the thing though: I could easily replicate the same situation with myself as the hero. All I have to do is lower my normal AI level by 5, and that would do it.
And therein lies the crux of the matter.
Whatever else can be said about attitude, I truly resent being treated as AI.

 

[Calvyn White]

I have mentioned this before, some weeks ago. But it was totally ignored by most and staff so I have chosen not to take part when certain individuals are. My opinion on this is simple. I find it disrespectful and somewhat humiliating. I am here to race for fun, not to be used as somebody else's entertainment and their subscribers. I consider the action unsportsmanlike. If I reconsider my decision in taking part in an event I would have to say, I do not give permission to use me in your video or stream. Which I do believe race department grants me that privilege as an option. I certainly rather have the game played as it is intended with sportsmanlike conduct.

 

[Georg Ortner]

Are we now really talking about having to ask permission to live stream a multiplayer game?

Only in simracing.

 

[Calvyn White]

Are we now realy talking about having to ask permission to live stream a multiplayer game?

Only in simracing.

You've missed the point. Read what I said again.

 

[Eddie Ellis]

I'm not upset about sandbaggers that have patience and will ease their pace for two or three corners to pass cleanly. Driving with faster drivers can also be a learning opportunity. I learned more from following Yakabu after being lapped than I learn in a whole week of practice.
My biggest issue that gets me steaming mad in our club races is when the entire pack is crawling carefully through a tight chicane on the first lap and one or two cars from the back wedge themselves in front of my car at a 30 degree angle. If the is less than half a car length and there are 8 cars parked, wait your turn. If you are that much faster than me, and many of you are, that's fine and we can sort it out like gentleman on the second lap.

 

[Case_]

I could obviously just pull to the side, and let him pass, but I shouldn't have to.

Then I guess you're lucky the faster guys are not likely to being accommodated by RD, unlike us slow ones, because I'm pretty sure some of them would very much prefer if us slower guys would just pull to the side instead of them having to deal with us.

My biggest issue that gets me steaming mad in our club races is when the entire pack is crawling carefully through a tight chicane on the first lap and one or two cars from the back wedge themselves in front of my car at a 30 degree angle.

And *that* is exactly how treating other drivers only as "moving chicanes" looks like. And both fast and slow drivers do that, because, again, this is really about people and their attitude, not about being fast or slow.

 

[PicoBp]

Guys, it's an argument where there's truth on both sides, and one that can not be solved by generalising the issue, or simply creating a rule to favor one side or the other. I think Martin is closest to what could be the middle ground.

On one hand, I can still remember my early days, where I didn't have the courage to join an official server in other than a practice session, even after many years of simracing offline. I practiced my a** off for over a month, specifically with the guys in that league, before I signed up for my first proper online race. I made all the rookie mistakes one could, and didn't have the nerves to withstand pressure not even from others, but even from getting out on the grid. Alas, I still have some of those issues after about a decade of racing. But the only way to get used to it is to experience that pressure, in a kind environment, where others do help you grow. And the Club races are mostly that (except for reasons outside of staff's reach). If someone can't get over their own nerves to keep trying, there's not the amount of rules, friendliness and funny banter that can help them, and they are really not ready. Not to mention if someone is discouraged by speed or position, as then it's their expectations that are unrealistic, which can only be "cured" with some honest sessions in front of a mirror. It's my least intention to hurt anyone, and it's by no means about pace. It's about attitude and motivation towards what one can do and what one needs to improve on.

But on the other hand, I could as well feel attacked by the "sandbagger" stamp. I also did start at the back on occasions, or even slow down during the race for a fight. So I'm the bad guy now, just for doing so? Or did I really harm the fun of others?
Just an example for which this whole idea of a "banhammer" hurts my feelings... Hungaroring is my home track, and I usually join the R3E Club whenever they visit it, no matter the car. DTM, TT, GTE, WTCC, you name it, I was there when I could. Some of those were Rookie/Friendly events as well. As it's not the most popular venue in the online scene (outside of Hungary), not to mention it being a difficult one to master, I tend to have a significant advantage just by experience. So what did the "sandbagger" with the right intensions do? Share a setup or two, create a hot lap video from different angles showing the proper lines and braking points, give tips to others willing to learn during practice, show them good overtaking spots, etc. And give a crap about my own qualifying, but do "pace car service", share some slipstream, show the way, switch "victims", rinse and repeat. And do the same during the race, ease off the pace, give the slower chaps a battle or two, help them build confidence and learn a trick or two, while keeping them safe.

I'm not telling this story to sound like a sacrifice, or that I'm some unappreciated hero. Just trying to bring up that generalising the "sandbaggers", or making this a war between rookies vs veterans, Captain Slow vs aliens is just creating a whole another problem without solving what we began with.

Just as Martin and Georg said, one should be measured on behaviour, not on their presumed intentions. It can't be made black and white, as it's not.

P.S.: Love y'all, and glad to see an adult conversation around such a difficult topic.

 

[Ken Hunter]

Gentleman... Admin staff, i have just read thru this "sandbagging" topic. Although there are merits on either side of this discussion, trying to justify screaming past all and sundry in front of you, from the back, to hone your driving skills, i feel is not on. You already should have those. In saying us back markers can gain experience and knowledge from a driver passing you, check out his racing lines or just try stick with him, is purely pipe dreaming and definitely not in a race, albeit league or fun, where we do not differentiate as we try our utmost to do our best at all times.
Here, i am not speaking for myself as i have had my "glory" days in sim racing, i feel for the gents who are trying to get where the fast guys are now, but can be severely discouraged with this kind of racing.

A kind note to our more illustrious drivers, if you guys really want to help the slower drivers, you may share your setups at fun events with them and give them the opportunity to improve or not. Sadly i have seen very,very little of this in the past.

Finally, for all of those faster than me, (the whole field) don't worry i will always make sure to let you through....
without incident!

 

[PicoBp]

from the back, to hone your driving skills, i feel is not on. You already should have those

I respect your opinion, but I'd like to react to this sentence. Pace and racecraft are two different things, not related to each other. For example, I'm an experienced guy that's better in attacking and defending, than going real quick and consistent. I know many that are slow, safe, and a nightmare to pass (just for their amazing defense skills), and also others that are unbelievably fast, but can't pass a squirrel without crashing. Practicing racecraft is for the better of everyone, no matter the pace.

 

[PresidentSmug]

The whole reason why i race is pressure, i wanna be able to give it out and take it when its given to me. I wanna feel the pressure of trying to overtake (in the right manner of course) or someone trying to overtake me and keep it up for as long as possible until one of us cracks. He who blinks loses. He whose focus is razor sharp wins. Some might say "no i'm here to have fun" but that's a generality because when you break down what fun is its how we deal with pressure. If pressure wasn't a factor we'd all be racing (sorry driving) these amazing virtual cars alone.

So imagine my surprise to find a thread about the fastest racers starting at the back, now bringing that beloved pressure we all cherish so much to the entire grid as a bad thing. Challenging themselves to pass as many as possible (pressure) while allowing those slower racers the chance (if they so choose to accept) to deal with pressure and to learn how the faster person got by them, to use that in the future. They would never get this sort of experience otherwise.

The fact that someone is willing to join a race means that he welcomes pressure. Now we must regulate how much pressure they should or can handle.

Am i doing this for the slower guys? No i'm doing it for me. To challenge myself because i get no pressure driving at the front on my own pulling away. But they benefit too, lets not lose fact of that.

 

[PresidentSmug]

A kind note to our more illustrious drivers, if you guys really want to help the slower drivers, you may share your setups at fun events with them and give them the opportunity to improve or not. Sadly i have seen very,very little of this in the past.

Georg and my youtube channels are filled with setups for numerous cars and tracks for people to try if the want

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

I do understand the issue, I also know that I am one of the ones that in 99.99% of the races start lower than where I finish.

This is due to me not testing at all before the server opens, which means that I will still gain some time during qual. In addition to this, I always qual with race-fuel. Always. No matter if it is club racing or league racing. This often leads to me starting some positions further back. But I find that it is easier to drive consistent if I don't mess around with the setup.

Lastly, in club races I often gamble a bit during qual, pushing a bit extra hard, as it is a club race and nothing important, this often leads to mistakes, or in R3E-style, laptime invalidated.

However, intentional sandbagging is not something I do.