Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[bassun]

Hey Mr Latte- question for ya about units similar to the DSP408's. Do they make anything that does 8+ channels, for under a grand? I've found tons of mixers which do 8 (or more) x2 lol. Not what I'm after. I did see a Peavey Digitool MX16, which I think would do what I was looking for, but it's like $1200. I also found a few DSP units which did 8 x 8 channels, but they did not appear to allow channel mixing as well. I'm sure they make such a thing, I just don't know how to look for it --- or perhaps I do, and it just happens to be $1200+.

You seem to have a solid grasp of audio electronics, hopefully you (or someone here) knows what I am looking for?

 

[Mr Latte]

I have an 18 channel audio interface.

The problem with some of these is not just how many inputs they support but how many outputs they offer.
I bored people likely to death many pages back on how audio interfaces and even midi controllers can be used as well as tablets/phones to control what the audio interface is doing. Depends on what make/model you go for with these things.

The audio interface approach brings more than the DSP408 type device.
I am not sure if I want to go the whole way in relying on using a DAW to control all my crossovers/eq etc.
I have yet to look more deeply into that when the rig is built but I have all the hardware, mainly cables is what is needed and then to determine if I want to go that approach.

The more modern interfaces will use wifi, so you can connect and control the DAW or app used via any device connected to its own wifi. A laptop or other PC could be used for the DAW or I found an iPad an easy portable solution. Certainly a very professional way to go about it but not sure so many people want to go that far or need to.

What do you want to do when you say mix 8 channels?
Are you also wanting controls like Crossover/PEQ etc and other audio tools?

 

[bassun]

I am actually kind of approaching things in a different direction from you. Instead of waiting until I know what I have, I'm trying to plan ahead for options. The thought process for mixing is such that I can obviously manipulate each individual Channel with crossovers equalizers Etc but to also be able to mix in any other channel into that channel. So for example if I want to mix audio on top of telemetry to any specific Channel I would have that freedom. I am not sure what else exactly I would use it for yet. The idea is to have basically a head unit that I could do whatever I wanted to from. I'm looking to have one good source with centralized controls that way everything right of this unit is self-sufficient and doesn't need DSP or crossovers Etc. And it's entirely possible that the cost of the solution outweighs the benefit.

 

[Dadz]

Thank you very much, I take into account all your advice, I will create a dedicated post for my project.

Personally I would advise you use more professional isolators as you are using high energy units. I will upload an edited image for an idea to consider to installing 2 units in stereo.

For isolators, I thought it would be good enough, so I will do a new search. Again I do not know whether to put them on the parallel bar, or below the side supports.

Just quick examples or approach to consider.
The steel plate you used could be a shape that suits having the units in below the seat if you prefer this to them on the outer sides. I would consider a "T" shape that lets the BK sit in beneath the seat but is connected to the full length of the seat rail in some fashion as well.

The BK-CT I thought more to place them each aligned in the center, as it will be in MONO, their information will travel on both sides an equal distance. The idea of the support in "T" yes I have already seen a member of the forum create it, and indeed, the propagation of the vibrations would be extended on the totality of the lateral supports.

Green = area you could have contact to the underside of the seat to help deliver stereo

Yes it is exactly its, and that poses a problem to me, it is necessary that I find a solution so that the vibrations can be propagated in the bucket in addition to the lateral supports.

Do you need the seat rails?

The rail, no I will not keep it, it does not serve me in the end.

 

[Mr Latte]

I am actually kind of approaching things in a different direction from you. Instead of waiting until I know what I have, I'm trying to plan ahead for options. The thought process for mixing is such that I can obviously manipulate each individual Channel with crossovers equalizers Etc but to also be able to mix in any other channel into that channel. So for example if I want to mix audio on top of telemetry to any specific Channel I would have that freedom. I am not sure what else exactly I would use it for yet. The idea is to have basically a head unit that I could do whatever I wanted to from. I'm looking to have one good source with centralized controls that way everything right of this unit is self-sufficient and doesn't need DSP or crossovers Etc. And it's entirely possible that the cost of the solution outweighs the benefit.

Well its not that I have not thought ahead, I already have DSP amps for all the TST and BK units I intend to use. So they already let me tune each one individually and save a profile to that amp for the role/purpose of the unit it is powering and the effects etc it may be working with.

The primary reason I used an audio interface was for monitoring all channels. It helped to learn about frequencies, harmonics and building better effects. I have to decide do I want to control all the EQ/Crossover or other tools at the interface stage instead of on the DSP amps. I can have much more control and features doing this from the comfort of an iPad pro and alter anything in real-time for any channel. It may be the route I go and I will maybe give it a try at a later stage when the build is more in completion.

Why would you want to mix various Shakeit channels into other channels? I get the reason of combining audio-tactile with the telemetry Shakeit effects.

With Shakeit you can output whatever effects to whatever channels you want. So for instance, if you wanted "left wheel suspension" effect to be active to all 8 channels you can do that in your channel mapping. You can also apply "per effect volume" as that is a feature I requested and was kindly added.

The "Output MIxer" stage of Shakeit is rather awesome compared to other tactile software.

As for game audio.
Are you wanting to mix 5.1 or 7.1 audio with 8 channel tactile?
It may not be as expensive or complicated as you think.

 

[bassun]

Oh, I wasn't insinuating you didn't plan ahead, I'm just planning in a different direction is all I meant. As for mixing, I guess there is little need to mix the telemetry channels, so yeah - the key mixing would be audio on top (or at least potentially) with enough DSP control to use it how I want.

My plan is to have everything in one place (well 2 considering shakeit itself) and have a good source. Kind of following the garbage in garbage out mentality. I know cheaper amps are cheaper sounding, but a cheap amp with a good source trumps a crap source going into the best amps. I'm hoping that since we are focused on LFE's I can provide good enough fidelity with lesser amps than I would for audio. But I know that means it needs a good source to have any chance. If that makes sense. Spend where I need to, save where I can.

 

[Mr Latte]

I will get back to you later this evening and @Dadz we can look into highlighting some better isolators when you start up your own thread. I have three other people in PM at the moment looking to get into tactile and installing to their rigs.

Dadz, where do you live regards using suppliers?

 

[Dadz]

ok, thanks for your involvement, it helps a lot.

I live in France.

 

[daniav]

It will be awesome if someone could post a very basic manual on how to configure the soundcard and how to configure the shakeit application for the simulators.

I know that there are tons of variations to tune, number of shakers, etc.., but I'm seeking for something really basic to start from

 

[frebe]

No probs, I bought both but have not done proper comparisons on them (been too busy). I personally prefer the EPQ304 (with fan mod). One reason not previously brought up is, while it also looks more professional/rack-mountable it can use balanced cables for its source inputs.

As it is not relying on unbalanced inputs like the Nobsound does with its RCA connections. So the EPQ 304 will not suffer from any potential interference from airwaves or other electronics.

A plinth/base of some type for the cockpit is the way forward. You could add various isolation to this and maybe even use the base if you wanted to store amps and cables. Depends how much work you want to give yourself but yes I have the same issue as my rig is upstairs in a bedroom.

For a cheap solution, then an mdf board covered with 1-3 layers of different sound/vibration isolation, and with 4-5 of these in beneath could be rather effective. Just an idea, depends on what dimensions you intend to use for a base as well what may be suitable.

Perfect, thanks. And with base (MDF board covered in rubber mat), feet, and various exercise equipment () tugged underneath you do believe it's a good chance that this will not propagate (significantly) downstairs? (even with an LFE)

 

[Mr Latte]

Perfect, thanks. And with base (MDF board covered in rubber mat), feet, and various exercise equipment () tugged underneath you do believe it's a good chance that this will not propagate (significantly) downstairs? (even with an LFE)

Rather than go with rubber matt, see this (3way solution) I purchased.
Good isolators can be used instead of gym accessories. You should be able to kill a large amount of the vibration this way.

You want good isolation on the seat as well, not them cheapo ebay/type basic rubber bobbins.
Layers is key and materials for specific purposes.




Also for @Dadz
See Here for lots of options on isolators

 

[bassun]

As for game audio.
Are you wanting to mix 5.1 or 7.1 audio with 8 channel tactile?
It may not be as expensive or complicated as you think.

Did you have some specific solution in mind? As it stands, my lean is towards doing a 408 and just running what I need through it - as I expand if I feel the need I can run two 408's.

 

[Mr Latte]

Did you have some specific solution in mind? As it stands, my lean is towards doing a 408 and just running what I need through it - as I expand if I feel the need I can run two 408's.

Yes but how you handling the mixing?

PC Audio - 408 A
Shakeit - 408 B

Adapt via EQ/Crossover each and then to an HA6000 or HA8000 mixer and then to amp?
That could work okay perhaps as you are controlling the crossover and EQ independent for each source then mixing them with potential for real time adjustment (via bass/treble controls) on HA 6000 and monitoring the channels activity too which looks awesome. Lastly, you could be applying DSP via NXD amp to tune the "combined mixed output" to suit the installation for large BK units.


The best approach from a performance perspective really would be to use a PC/Laptop and DAW software or my own preference is to use iPad with a multichannel interface. Once your audio is in the interface you could do everything in the PC/iPad with software and specialist audio plugins.

You can get 8 channel interfaces for decent prices, if you need more inputs then it gets more costly.

If seeking good control and performance, to do it with various hardware, it would likely get more expensive as needing hardware for Audio EQ / Crossover / Mixing / and then DSP to tune the input to amp to suit the hardware and installation you have or your preferences.

Ideally you want to be able to split/duplicate your game audio output.
Simply because the EQ /Crossover you want for the tactile usage would not be the same for headphones/speakers. (this is easily forgotten about)

You then need to mix the game audio with the multi-channel audio you use for Shakeit and after that you may then want final EQ and crossover control prior to amplification.

iPad software like AUM allows you to place on each channel whatever software plugins you wish to use.
I briefly looked into it and was impressed. You can then also control it with a midi controller as well.

Many music professionals use it as the power it brings from apps developed by people in the community is quite amazing. It brings these tools without the need in spending £££s on software plugins made by professional audio companies that make DAW plugins for PC/Mac.

This is to the level I probably will go to in using midi and with (motorized sliders) but as yet not decided as quite happy with the HA6000 abilities for mixing. (I even bought 3x HA6000 to monitor each channel and cover upto 18 channels)

This is far beyond what any average user would consider but for anyone wanting to go in a more professional direction to control multiple transducers and if wanting to mix audio with the telemetry tactile.
Basically it is forming a small studio to control multi-track audio like a band or musicians do. We just add the plugin tools you want/need and apply these to the channels and then control what is output on each channel to your amps.

It might be worth investigating, depends how far or serious you want to get into it I suppose.

If using large BK units then my advice is to ensure you buy the NX3000D amp as you will benefit from its DSP at the amplifier stage to then calibrate how your transducers will perform and to your rigs installation.

 

[bassun]

Ok, cool. I appreciate the detailed conversation. I know that I will not be taking it to the level you touch on here, unless I really get bitten and go way over the top. The idea with the 408's would actually not be just one for audio one for tactile - but rather having an audio feed coming into the 408, probably as a mono channel, so I could fill that into any other effect. Basically 3 telemetry channels in, 1 audio in. Definitely processed separately from game "listening" audio. That logic could be duplicated on additional 408's // one 8 channel etc. I liked the idea of one bigger unit so I could do it all - but I think I'm honestly not really sure that I need or will even want it though. I like the idea, but not so sure that the benefit is worth the hassle and expense. Especially just getting started.

I am planning on building out w/ a BK-G2 which while it does have an amp and is good to go, it absolutely needs some frequencies addressed to mitigate piston pang, but I'm hesitant to spend the money on a DSP capable amp on top of the BK Amp (I could try to resell the amp, sure, but that's a pain). I am looking at 4 -Aura AST Pro's (pedal/seat), and probably 6 exciters (pedal, wheel platform, seat). Although probably 4 thruster, 2 HESF (for the seat). Seat design just doesn't fit the exciter experiment proper, attaching anything to the seat will be an engineering challenge - but I have a fun solution for stacking 4 [question about that at the bottom]. Since I'm going to be getting reduced sensation, I think the slightly more robust HESF will be beneficial on the seat. However, from the get go I have championed mixing in higher frequency units for a better, multi-dimensional feel - your 6/8 per seat is just taking that concept to a whole new level. Regardless, I absolutely agree that frequency and amplitude management per channel can be helpful.

So far, the only thing that "needs" DSP is the BK-G2. BUT ... and here's the crux, I have a lead on a couple BK-LFE's, supposedly with a good working BKA-130c. Now, that's potentially 3 channels that could legitimately benefit from DSP massively. But, also all three already powered. The financial outlay for the units and amps, then to buy better amps w/ DSP doesn't justify the gain unless I can turn around the other two amps. Maybe I could, but to be candid, I really don't like trying to sell stuff like that. As such, I am heavily leaning towards cheaper amps for the Aura's and Exciters, and a 408 to manage the BK's, and likely forgoing the audio layer component as I think it would be more beneficial on the AST's than the BK's or Exciters. Maybe down the road add in mixing, but not today. Either way, I will eventually add some true bottom end capable units - it may just be down the road if this deal falls through.

I mentioned "stacked" earlier. Have you, or anyone, tested stacking units on the same plane? Like literally:

SURFACE || Unit A || Unit B

In my case, Small Mountable Flat on the back of the seat with an Exciter attached directly and an Aura AST 2B-4 Bolted on behind that suspended just behind the Exciter on 4 long bolts (not actually touching the exciter - and sending the vibrations through the bolts into the mounting flat). [Technically, two sets of these one left one right at roughly shoulder height.]

I don't see why it would be a problem, and if it were not for wanting to have good response from 40-80 AND 120-180 (roughly) I wouldn't bother. But I do, and it seems like it would work. I do not think that having them physically touching is a good idea, however. Hence the "raised platform" idea, so to speak. I think I will start a build thread once I finally decide on what, and my stuff comes in as I think my solutions could at least be interesting to a few.

Anywho - thanks for getting into that Mr Latte. More food for thought...

 

[Mr Latte]

You are placing a lot of things on possible theories or estimations in how it may work or it working well.
If you insist on different exciters than the ones tested recommended then I would advise you buy 1 of each and do your own tests before committing to buying multiple units.

Here is a video shows the exciters

I tested many possible methods of adding tactile, so you can take this advice or continue to go the path you want to go. At the end of the day it is your money and your rig to do how you please.

Multi-body zones on the seat should not be underestimated compared to having the typical installation of tactile via seat rails or seat supports. If you do not have a suitable seat, my advice if wanting to build towards achieving much better tactile immersion would be to consider obtaining one and go this path.

The exciter concept lets a user start at a low price point and get the benefit of multiple units all with greater frequency response than units like Aura Pro or other commonly purchased models. When it comes to outputting multiple effects they will wipe the floor with what having 2 Aura Pro on the seat will do.

You are much better focusing on the seat first for immersion and then maybe add tactile to the pedals.
Some people are keen to get engine vibes into the pedals or other effects. A seat using multiple units and bodyzones is not like a seat with 2 units like most people have and then with that it is more important to maybe have 2 units in pedals to work with 2 units in seat.

4 exciters and amp(s) to power them is affordable.

It is costly to start going with multiple BK Mini lfe or Aura Pro and doing the Simvibe based Chassis Mode configuration with 4 units on corners. The vast majority of installations that do this, waste a large portion of the energy as it's going into the rig's frame rather than directly into the user. Also in a lot of cases, their installation easily lets the L/R units energy mix and they lose the stereo feedback, so what's the point in having two units if they do not maintain their independence. One larger mono unit that can output better low bass is then a better option for the immersion.

4 exciters on a compatible seat and 1x Large BK will be much better for immersion, over what you are proposing to do and its also built as a configuration to be expandable. So with a large BK, buy the NX3000D amp and it is ready to go for a 2nd large BK in the pedals if you wish or having stereo large BK on the seat.

Best immersion.....
You want, multizone contact points and that 1Hz-200Hz range from the tactile you use to get the most from effects we can create. This is why the large BK unit Vs 4x Aura is a better idea. With the ability to use effects on multiple channels it vastly improves over having only 2 units in seat/pedals. Additionally, it's an easy upgrade to 6 exciters if desired or to then focus on pedals.

 

[bassun]

I agree that more is better, 100%. I also agree that multiple peak frequencies from different units is better than one unit's peak performance. I think we are on the same page there. Where we differ, it would seem, is that I see a benefit in more types of units being used - specifically for their peak performance. You don't like the idea of running Aura AST's - I think it's a solid idea. Not for the low's - BK-LFE or Q10's are where that shines - even the concerts and TST's are going to be a bit higher than those. I am looking at it much like car audio.

Headunit - Processor - Amps - Speakers (Tweeters, Mids, Subs)
In the tactile case Headunit=Simhub || Processor=DSP(408 or on amp etc) ||Amps=Amps|| (Speakers=Shakers || Tweeters = Exciters || Mids = [BKmini/Aura AST Pros/Dayton BST-1 (maybe)/ADX Max/MQB-1 etc] || Subs = BKLFE/TST/Q10

I like my seat, and am not prepared just yet to justify buying a new one in order to get the absolute best of the best possible attachment options (plus it was a gift, so there's that), I would upgrade my pedals and wheel first - but that's a whole different can of worms and should take precedence over tactile, but I am more interested in tactile atm lol.

You keep repeating that the BK-LFE is better than 4 Aura Pros. I agree. But it isn't better than a BK-LFE AND 4 Aura Pros. That is where I am going, I must not have been clear about that. I am, however, looking for deals vs buying full cost for the BK-LFE's so I may well have no BK-LFE's until I find a good deal. The others are cheap enough to buy new and not have buyers remorse, and I already have BK-G2. I cannot convince myself to buy 3 BK-LFE's at full cost today - much as you probably would not buy all of your gear new today based on the advice of someone on the internet.

I'm not taking my rig as far as yours is. Few, if any, will. But, I do intend on growing it to have at least the above with the seat isolated from the frame, and the frame isolated from the casters. This is not a permanent fixture, and runs on a dual use PC so I needed mobility.

Now looping back to your first two sentences.
"You are placing a lot of things on possible theories or estimations in how it may work or it working well.
I tested many possible methods of adding tactile, so you can take this advice or continue to go the path you want to go "

Yes, I am basing everything on theory. Theory and research. I am also extrapolating other peoples testing and applying those results in what would work best for my rig. You are building a tactile specific rig. I am only adding tactile to mine. You feel no need to add tactile to wheels. I need it. You felt inclined to utilize a hard shelled seat so you could add 8 exciters I am choosing to use what I have, and find the best non-destructive solution for that. I cannot easily place 8, which may be prime, but I think I came up with a way to use slightly more power in two locations to be better than no power in no locations.

I feel like you often think people are ignoring your advice (not just my posts but in general), and get upset that people do not do exactly what you say. But, you also recognize that your rig is being purpose built and that no one else even has the same platform to build tactile on, certainly few if any have the tactile gear you already have, so certainly no one can follow your advice 100%. And they shouldn't.

But we can look at what you are doing, look at the concepts and ideas you are implementing, look at the results of the testing you have already done, and apply that information into theories about what would benefit each of us individually the best. Certain concepts seem universal, such as Big Units deliver Big Low Bass. There is no debate there. Just as I think everyone would agree that more units tactfully applied in different locations is better than one or even many poorly placed (same with tuned). Just because we may choose to not copy your rig, does not mean we are ignoring your advice...we are just applying it in what works best for our individual situation.

Consider your planned rig build. The size, the weight, the mounting options and configurations you are building in. Consider your gear you plan to run on it, and the way you plan on connecting and tuning it.

Now - do that to a GT Omega ART with a stock seat and a Logitech Driving Force GT wheel and pedals. I 100% know that your personal solution would not work as well on that rig in that configuration. Who would expect it to? So, keep in mind that sometimes its not someone just ignoring your input, its merely taking it and applying it to our specific situation. I see you often aggravated that people ignore your input -- don't take it that way. If we are here and conversing, we are interested in your experience and knowledge - we may or may not choose to apply your suggestion, or we may simply not be able to. My rig is right for me. I would not put nearly the money into mine as you have. They are different, but I suspect I am just as happy with mine as you are with yours. I may not have a Corvette, but it still beats the crap out of a Chevette. Except my wheel. That's pretty much a pinto. An old beat up, rusted out, creaky door, no heat pinto with a busted tail light and 1 dimly lit bulb on the dash and some sort of smell coming from the back. BUT -- it beats the devil out of WASD.

 

[Mr Latte]

Firstly I am not expecting people to build what I am building, that goes much further than any build I know of will regards tactile but again that is just part of my own journey as a hobby in itself I have longed to achieve. So its great to of made the findings I have from experimenting with that and to see how improved software as well, has let us build and implement effects much better than we could before. Discovering the exciters was a real surprise in how well they could be implemented as originally I only planned to use them to increase RPM sensations to higher frequencies.

Sharing the "concept" is taking the approach of better utilising body regions. It has been pointed out enough times. We then capitalise on that with directly mounted tactile that works over a far better frequency range. Effects are then made to operate various layers for the exciters and then whatever size or performance level of BK unit the persons rig has installed. So we combine the low bass potential and the increased mid-high bass range. This has been pointed out several times and is why it is superior to conventional or most common installations that people have been doing for years.

Keep also in mind that the larger BK units are not just like the smaller ones but with more wattage. So the better the user decides to buy then the greater the specially made "low bass" effect layers will feel.

The "concept" also takes a totally different approach to how effects themselves are created and used. Not based on theory, not based on potential possibilities but based on months of testing and exploring, using advanced hardware and experience. Monitoring the effects frequency output that is generated from the settings within the software. In building effects this way, we can create effects to get the most out of the actual hardware being used.

What you are seemingly missing is that a tactile configuration needs good effects, it needs good understanding in how to build not just okay but really good effects. Part of that comes from studying how audio works but also knowing the limitations a single tactile unit has when we start to apply multiple effects to them. The "concept" removes these limitations. A user with more exciter units then has more freedom to use more effects or use them more effectively.

So you can go on and on about placing 4 Aura Pro in corners, they will not be as good as you think they will be when it comes to delivering stereo sensations into the pedals and the seat and getting bogged down with little variation in response, especially when placing a few effects on them. Having already owned these and other units installed with this approach, I know its limits.

Now, just because you do not have a suitable seat does not mean lots of people cannot easily place into a build multiple exciters and at least one BK unit from the range available.

You may refuse to look at the limitations the Aura Pro are going to give you, want to tell me based on paper specs what exciter may be better (yet have not tested any) and have lots of theories now also about stacking units, come now really?

Nobody tried to make this work for a GT Omega ART, and as stated before you are more than welcome to do with your build how you see fit as is anyone. My own rig build the the "concept" for people to adopt are not the same thing. What is however the same is the level/quality of effects I make for the hardware the concept uses. So anyone that goes down this route has the ability to have effects I spent months working on and continue to improve. Someone trying to get them to work on their own tactile hardware or installations is not going to get the same experience with them due to the way they are created to work with the specific hardware recommended.

I am not aware of anyone else that has attempted to build effects with this approach or attention to detail in making the most out of the increased frequency ranges and multiple body-zones. These as factors all combine to make the "concept" what it is.

All in all, for anyone seeking to get into tactile these, are pretty good things to consider and take the benefits it will bring in immersion. It's up to people to decide if they want to go this path or not and have the benefit of the effects I personally create or experiment with for my own usage too.

 

[bassun]

Ok - I am really confused. Did you read my post, or are you replying to someone else? Where did I ever mention planning on 4 Aura Pros in the corners? Where did I mention chassis mode in Simvibe? I think there is a disconnect between what I am doing, and what you perceive everyone must be doing. So that we are on the same page, I will outline the idea I am building towards, disregarding the Amps etc.

Seat: One BKG2 extended from a central bar spanning the riser/slide adjustment. IE direct connection to the seat, mono. BK-LTE left and right direct attachment to the seat risers (these will come later based on finding good deals), obviously stereo setup. Back of seat, about shoulder height (mainly because of a potential mount option) two HESF exciters and two Aura Pros stacked, again stereo setup. Seat itself is already isolated from the frame and any other connections. It is in essence free floating. If I find a good deal even further down I would like to add one more central BK-LTE/ TST/E Q10B for dead center under the seat. That is way down the road. I would also like to find a way to utilize one BK-LTE for the seat back. I have some ideas, but not sure how that would work out. Once I have some BK-LTE's I can test that though.

Pedal plate: Two stereo Aura Pro's bottom left and bottom right (may swap top to bottom after testing), and two "thrusters" either directly below the center or directly below the top of my pedals (again after testing). One BK-LTE bottom center of plate (again, a later add). I cannot easily isolate my plate, nor separate it, so I have to rely on direct placement and the flex of the plate itself. Here I am hoping that the directionality of higher frequencies plays a bonus in felt stereo separation, but that is 100% theory. They frequencies are so low, I suspect to see a more areal effect in reality. I do have an idea of how I could potentially isolate the pedal set with the exciters from the main plate, but I'm not sure of the benefit yet. If I had split pedals, then I would absolutely do that, but I don't so I am not likely to spend the effort for a very minimal gain.

Wheel mount platform: Two thruster exciters in stereo left and right of the wheel to add feedback. Likely a dedicated channel eventually, probably mimicking the channel to my pedals to begin with. Here I may add additional heavier units, but I'm not sold on the benefit. I'd rather spend more on a wheel upgrade vs trying to get feeling out of the pinto. The cost of a couple of thrusters is a write off to see if it helps. I will have some Aura Pro's so I can test their impact of course. I just suspect in order to make it worthwhile I would spend more time and money on equipment and tuning and get a lesser impact then by simply upgrading the wheel and pedals.

Entire frame will be isolated via 8 isolators between the frame and the casters. So I ultimately have two separated parts. The seat, then the frame / pedal plate / wheel mount. Considering the weight of the rig, I suspect great impact by the BK-LFE's once I get them.

As for the channel mix, yeah - there's no doubt it will take a lot of trial and error, and modification of what is out there as suggestions already. That's why I've been looking at DSP and channel mixing capabilities. There's no chance that stock effects are going to work as well as a good mix. Your testing on low bass coming over the BK-LFE's alone has proven that, if defeating piston pang alone isn't reason enough.


Oh, one other thought that I neglected to address initially...

"You are placing a lot of things on possible theories or estimations in how it may work or it working well.
If you insist on different exciters than the ones tested recommended then I would advise you buy 1 of each and do your own tests before committing to buying multiple units. "

Did you test the HESF variant? If I remember correctly, no. You elected to not even bother with them, as they did not suit your method of attachment. Maybe they perform even better...? They do have a resonance which is more inline with the targeted frequency range (Fs of 300 vs what, 395?). Considering the similar design, the 3M attachment PLUS screws of the HESF, and given they are the most powerful by Dayton (according to their description), I think there is a high likelihood they will perform just fine. I would expect them to operate a tad better in my specific use case as there will only be two for the back vs 8 and I will be able to screw them down as well giving just a tad more transference (likely negligible amounts, albeit).

That said, I also mentioned using 4 additional of the standard thrusters. So yes, I will be able to do some 1:1 comparisons. They are cheap enough that if I feel one is significantly superior to the other, I can add or replace.

I really like the work you have done, and I think you are on the best case approach by mixing frequency response, and trying to dedicate as much stereo impact as possible coupled with dynamic and system tuned effects. I am not looking to mimic your build, but I darn tootin' am going to utilize some of the concepts where they make sense for my scenario.

 

[Mr Latte]

Look man, go you and do what you want, buy what you want and install it how you please.
Too much theory, test first various units and ways to install to the rig. Then determine what configuration. As much of what you have as ideas may not work anyways. You come seeking help but then want to say what is best thing for you to do anyways lol.

Do not try to lecture me about HESF I tested 5 small units FYI even though HESF was not one of them.
I did not like the HESF size and as stated thought, it may have more issue with build quality and bottoming as previously mentioned. The recommended unit is more robust than some of the others and as stated performed well.

Guess what, my concept and tested solutions, my recommendations to others is all they are.
Not based on theory, not based on big ideas, not based on paper specs but actual installation testing and months of usage from years of experience. So please if you want to do something different and ignore the advice and recommendations that is fine with me.

You can go out and spend your own money on variations and then sharing it with everyone with your own findings if the recommendations are not good enough for you.

 

[bassun]

Oh i forgot about this:
You may refuse to look at the limitations the Aura Pro are going to give you, want to tell me based on paper specs what exciter may be better (yet have not tested any) and have lots of theories now also about stacking units, come now really?


As I mentioned, you have not tested them against each other either... so... there's that.

But secondly, theory about stacking units? No, it's not a theory - it was a question, and a sharing of a potential install solution. I never theorized any gains beyond the mechanical impact directly given by any single unit attached. I explained the potential install, and asked if you had done any testing with anything like that, and your opinion of any impact from doing so. I have two very small mounting locations that I can use. I want more than what either one exciter, or any one unit really, can provide.

Do you have a better option than to try something that? Now if we want to theorize, then I could theorize impacts of the stacked waves starting in the same location at the same time becoming either destructive or constructive. Superposition would lead me to suspect a minimal increase if I match frequency. Conversely, I would anticipate a less positive experience if I were to reverse phases or do not frequency match. But I wasn't postulating theories...I was just asking if during any of the testing you have done, you did anything similar or had any thoughts on potential impact.