Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software
- Thread starter Mr Latte
- Start date
Hey folks -- Been reading, and reading, and reading... wow. Anywho - I know that one of the top suggestions for amplification is say an iNuke w/ DSP. Really, it seems the DSP and the ability to handle ultra low frequencies are the keys for that suggestion. I have also seen some really cheap single channel inline amps suggested. If one is looking for a solution which gives them room to grow, while saving as much money as you can in a hobby like this - is there not a good solution to spend a decent amount on a multi-channel digital signal processor (or maybe two etc), then power the outputs from that with those cheap amps and a few power supplies?
I would have to do the math, but it seems like you can quickly save a chunk by processing separately, then powering the transducers cheaply. Plus, if you have one or two processors you wont have to go through and tweak multiple DSP capable amps.
Maybe I am missing something?
Added since no replies yet:
Something like this Dayton DSP: (just happened to be a cheap one that popped up w/ a quick google. $150)
Dayton Audio DSP-408
It has 4 channels in, 8 channels out, channel mixing, phase adjusting, crossover (up to 24db), 10 band EQ.
I would have to do the math, but it seems like you can quickly save a chunk by processing separately, then powering the transducers cheaply. Plus, if you have one or two processors you wont have to go through and tweak multiple DSP capable amps.
Maybe I am missing something?
Added since no replies yet:
Something like this Dayton DSP: (just happened to be a cheap one that popped up w/ a quick google. $150)
Dayton Audio DSP-408
It has 4 channels in, 8 channels out, channel mixing, phase adjusting, crossover (up to 24db), 10 band EQ.
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Mr Latte
Premium
Yes that has been covered in the past.
The Dayton 408 is a decent unit and offers 4 inputs, as several other options only offer 2 inputs.
I do not think people that mostly buy into affordable tactile will buy such and tbh with the cheaper tactile its not so much needed. I highlighted this product many months ago, dont know of a single person that follows this thread, if indeed they bought one.
The idea is to control and improve the lowest bass frequencies and these really will only be felt properly with capable large BK models or others like Earthquake Q10B.
By the time a person buys an amp that can power the larger models, they will find that the Behringer with DSP is good value. Certainly still likely cheaper than buying DSP processor and amps. More cables, more power plugs etc too.
German brand Helix make some good DSP for the car hi-fi sector but those are not cheap.
The alternative is to buy a decent multichannel USB audio-interface and then we connect that to PC or tablet via DAW or specialist software apps. Here again, buying at least a 4 channel or more interface while amazing in what it makes possible in control and monitoring the audio. It too is going to cost quite a bit to do when you get all the cables and everything else.
The DSP Behringer amps are the easiest and still cost-effective approach.
If using budget tactile, then it may work fine to use possible PC equaliser software options.
Annoyingly, still almost a year ago when these options were mentioned in this thread, nobody has come forward to highlight such software with a thread giving an overview in using it for tactile that would benefit others.
The Dayton 408 is a decent unit and offers 4 inputs, as several other options only offer 2 inputs.
I do not think people that mostly buy into affordable tactile will buy such and tbh with the cheaper tactile its not so much needed. I highlighted this product many months ago, dont know of a single person that follows this thread, if indeed they bought one.
The idea is to control and improve the lowest bass frequencies and these really will only be felt properly with capable large BK models or others like Earthquake Q10B.
By the time a person buys an amp that can power the larger models, they will find that the Behringer with DSP is good value. Certainly still likely cheaper than buying DSP processor and amps. More cables, more power plugs etc too.
German brand Helix make some good DSP for the car hi-fi sector but those are not cheap.
The alternative is to buy a decent multichannel USB audio-interface and then we connect that to PC or tablet via DAW or specialist software apps. Here again, buying at least a 4 channel or more interface while amazing in what it makes possible in control and monitoring the audio. It too is going to cost quite a bit to do when you get all the cables and everything else.
The DSP Behringer amps are the easiest and still cost-effective approach.
If using budget tactile, then it may work fine to use possible PC equaliser software options.
Annoyingly, still almost a year ago when these options were mentioned in this thread, nobody has come forward to highlight such software with a thread giving an overview in using it for tactile that would benefit others.
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@Mr Latte thanks for explanation, im not fully understanding the horizontal axis though...... in all the units ive looked at they say things like 20Hz-80Hz , or 5Hz-200Hz
How do those numbers correlate to the graphs ( or dont they ? )
Reason I ask is I see the exact same scale on my 3000D (obviously) and im sitting here trying to figure out all the settings ;-)
Attachments
Ok , think ive found it in your 3000D setup thread.....20Hz to 20Khz ( human hearing range )
Mr Latte
Premium
Audio is basically measured from 20Hz - 20Khz
So what you have is a frequency chart.
Tell me again what transducers you are using, I can share/send you settings you load into your amp, via PC.
Do you own an iPad?
If you do you can buy a cheap 2 channel audio interface that will show the realtime audio from the soundcard.
I can help you configure such....
Sitting here with me right now I have the following , just really getting to grips with the Amp and teaching myself from your posts. I have the BK and the Aura connected atm
Behringer NX3000D
1x Buttkicker Advance BK4-4
1x AuraSound AST-2B-4
2x NobSound Ns-20G
4x Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4
I think we have an ipad laying around here somewhere, got an android tablet as well.........I was wondering if i could get something to 'see' the audio and help my understand what the changes are actually doing
Mr Latte
Premium
Okay will discuss in that thread.
Yes being able to see the audio generated helps a lot with the understanding.
It blows my mind why others have never bothered it seems to do this.
For iPad it depends on the model, new USB C or if older you then need camera connection kit which basically lets the USB from audio interface connect with the iPad. You then just run various apps on ipad and select it to detect the audio input. Your up and running in no time....
You could easily just use 2 channel interface (cheap) and monitor whatever 2 channels you want.
This will require some extra cables of course...
One of the most affordable 4 Channel Options or as a 2 Channel Option
Thats one of the easiest ways into being able to monitor any audio sources.
Yes being able to see the audio generated helps a lot with the understanding.
It blows my mind why others have never bothered it seems to do this.
For iPad it depends on the model, new USB C or if older you then need camera connection kit which basically lets the USB from audio interface connect with the iPad. You then just run various apps on ipad and select it to detect the audio input. Your up and running in no time....
You could easily just use 2 channel interface (cheap) and monitor whatever 2 channels you want.
This will require some extra cables of course...
One of the most affordable 4 Channel Options or as a 2 Channel Option
Thats one of the easiest ways into being able to monitor any audio sources.
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Well, that's even better news for newcomers or budget limited!
Since we only need DSP "to control and improve the lowest bass frequencies and these really will only be felt properly with capable large BK models or others like Earthquake Q10B" then that is a huge win! Since only a few units can effectively even be impacted, then no need to spend on it! 40W exciters, and other mid-range units not needing it, means we can go with the ultra cheap module amps of Amazon and let simhub handle the rest!
Sure you may need to buy a couple power supplies, but even the meanwell 24v power supplies are cheap (unless you go huge) which you wont need since the smaller tactile units need lower wattage's. A couple $25 PS's, a handful of the $15 amps, and another handful of the budget (but recommended) tactile units and we are off and running! (the exciters, and even some other options) Then put some money into at least 1 BKLFE and a NX3000DSP to get started on the big hits and BOOM! Tons of immersion!
I'm more excited now than I have been in days! Thanks so much for clearing things up Mr Latte!
Mr Latte
Premium
Good to hear you are excited....
Soon be time to try and get a group of people to test effects created and help others learn how to build/control effects when we go into overviewing Simhub/Shakeit in depth. I am hoping in a month or so this gives a few people time to get into this as well.
Keep in mind I am trying to cover everything from cheap entry into this, right upto what my own build is seeking to do with tactile. Its a case of trying to bring the best immersion for little cost as well as taking the possibilities with tactile immersion beyond what has been possible in recent years and to new heights.
I am not recommending the d.i.y based amps as I cannot be certain how good they are. Nothing personal with others highlighting or sharing them but not all amps will produce good bass or maybe up to the demands tactile places on them.
To be honest what some people expect from an amp costing $15 seriously?
What is that, 2 coffees and a favorite slice?
The Nobsound G20 is the recommended "cheap solution" and it seems one of the good options, considering it will be able to power the Mini BK models. It should last and be upto the job. I don't think it would be very hard for some 3D printer equipped person to come up with a solution that could neatly house 3 or 4 Nobsound amps into a nice single holder.
An alternative is for someone to buy the Behringer EPQ 304 and do the fan mod as stated.
Though it is less likely to power mini BK LFE it nicely packages 4 channels with individual channel volumes into a slim form factor and all with a single PSU and plug.
Looking at the exciters: I know the primary choice right now is the DAEX32EP-4 but what about the DAEX30HESF-4? I ask because the HESF has a Fs of 300 vs 395 in the EX32EP's. Since the exciters are going to be handling 100-200hz would it not be more useful to have a resonance that is closer to the intended range? I don't know the drop off, but it seems like we could pick up a little more umph. (not that my seat lends well to them regardless...)
Mr Latte
Premium
The 30HESF model would likely perform rather well and in some ways similar, it though is bulkier/larger in diameter and height. Also the "Thruster" model just looked less intrusive, more robust with a nicer finish and I think it cost a bit less too. That was why I opted for it to compare with others. It performs well so it seemed the best overall option for the usage we have.
While we do not so much need DSP like "Parametric EQ" for these some effects using frequencies in the 100-200Hz range may need to be kept dialed back in volume as the noise from second-tier and third-tier harmonics (often in this range) may annoy some users.
They don't just handle 100-200Hz that is where they will shine more, over many other transducers. You can use these from around 20Hz or so but they start to have more energy around 30Hz. At 40-50Hz they pack quite a decent amount of punch (with direct seat mounting) but this is certainly not low bass.
So yes if a user wants to apply some form of EQ control (via hardware or software) you can go in and trim out any potential Hz that may have resonance peaks with different seat/rig materials. Just listen or try some test-tones and you will find going beyond 200Hz becomes more audible than actual felt bass.
Where these units shine, is having much nicer detail beyond 70Hz over some popular models including Buttkickers.
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Ok. yeah the HESF was a few dollars more expensive (20 vs 25 IIRC). I suspect (purely guess based on the numbers) that the size increase is probably relative to sizing of the internals which is putting it into a lower frequency Fs. I plan on using a few of these guys (one or the other) in the long run. When I pick up a couple for testing, I may well pick up both variants and try some 1:1 comparisons. I don't have a lot of test tools, but my phone does have vibrometer installed. I should be able to do some frequency specific testing and see how the two units compare.
If I were to guess, I suspect that the HESF will have a little more intensity in the lower range while the 32EP will have a small advantage on the higher end. Assuming their reported numbers are accurate.
If I were to guess, I suspect that the HESF will have a little more intensity in the lower range while the 32EP will have a small advantage on the higher end. Assuming their reported numbers are accurate.
Mr Latte
Premium
Yes, it does appear to look a bit stronger with a lower range, but that may make it more susceptible to bottoming as I found with one of the other units. It still will not handle properly the lowest bass, so its best to focus on BK units for that.
Your welcome to do your own tests or comparisons.
oh yeah, definitely not expecting anything in the lowest range from these guys at all. I purely meant lower comparatively. Even if it has a better response / feel in the 80-150hz range, and the other exciter does better in the 150-200 slot -- that could give us the best of those two higher ranges in two cheap units. If you are going to run 2 or more pairs, why not take advantage of the strengths of both cheap units.
Take your plan of 4 pairs. If you run two sets of the HESF and two sets of the 32EP's [assuming my above theory is correct] you could pull the best out of both and focus on their specific strengths for your custom tune. Maybe an increasing frequency span as you go higher up the seat, for example.
Take your plan of 4 pairs. If you run two sets of the HESF and two sets of the 32EP's [assuming my above theory is correct] you could pull the best out of both and focus on their specific strengths for your custom tune. Maybe an increasing frequency span as you go higher up the seat, for example.
Mr Latte
Premium
Yeah, I get what your saying and I did consider that in the early stages with 2 of the models I looked at. As we could then distribute effects using specific Hz suited to the performance benefits/characteristics for a bit more optimal output.
The bottoming was a factoring concern as was the build quality on one of the units. As the HESF can be screwed down I do think it could offer more energy with low-mid frequencies but on a seat, people will just be using the 3M VHB and we do not know if it has potential issues with bottoming too with the constant bass we are sending to these. Keep in mind "telemetry tactile" can output more low bass than typical usage scenarios these are designed for (general audio) like music or video entertainment usage.
For me, the "Thruster" was the optimal unit taking into account everything and keeping all units the same made it less confusing for others. It performs well for the desired intention and is described as being "robust" when comparing to others.
The intention of the concept is not to just get users into experiencing "multichannel exciters" but also combining them with at least one BK unit. The better low/mid bass abilities from BK units used in the base of a seat will transfer up the back of the seat anyways so it likely will also make the better mid-bass of the HESF little benefit or redundant.
Mr Latte
Premium
One point I will add is that tactile immersion when we are seeking to use the lowest-higher bass frequencies will be best experienced when the user is wearing good headphones. An example would be stereo positional bumps as you see and hear the audio (improved stereo imaging with headphones) for these events happening, combined with the users input in steering and then feeling the tactile it all combines in the immersion level.
We also will not hear the material reverberations or mechanical noise of the tactile (something I find distracting and immersion-breaking) or issues in actual noises some effects harmonics are creating. When using speakers these aspects may be heard and such will require an adequate volume to drown them out depending on settings and gain levels used with the tactile.
Yet some of this higher bass and reverb in making the seat "live" to some extents, like a speaker can add to the detailing with felt bone conduction and tissue mass. This also becomes evident with nice RPM effects but even more so when we mix in with that the actual "engine audio" via traditional (yet controlled) "game audio-tactile". I have more experimentation to do with this but some tests were promising.
For me personally, good headphones with nice stereo imaging and quality bass work superbly with tactile, you feel much more involved with the action when you get the direct enclosed audio from the game and none of the other operational noises.
We also will not hear the material reverberations or mechanical noise of the tactile (something I find distracting and immersion-breaking) or issues in actual noises some effects harmonics are creating. When using speakers these aspects may be heard and such will require an adequate volume to drown them out depending on settings and gain levels used with the tactile.
Yet some of this higher bass and reverb in making the seat "live" to some extents, like a speaker can add to the detailing with felt bone conduction and tissue mass. This also becomes evident with nice RPM effects but even more so when we mix in with that the actual "engine audio" via traditional (yet controlled) "game audio-tactile". I have more experimentation to do with this but some tests were promising.
For me personally, good headphones with nice stereo imaging and quality bass work superbly with tactile, you feel much more involved with the action when you get the direct enclosed audio from the game and none of the other operational noises.
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I'm curious what kind of processing is being done to the shakers on the rig. I remember reading low pass filterering is helpful. Could this be enough or are you finding more complicated boosting or filtering is the right direction?
Mr Latte
Premium
Which type or models are you referring to?
As for complicated, its not hard to do or learn with some effort
Right, sorry I will explain my question.
I was thinking after reading this post by bassun that maybe we could use an amp like the inuke to play around with the dsp to figure out what filtering works best with the placement of any of our shakers(but lets talk about the dayton audio DAEX32EP-4 for discussion purposes). Once we know what we want in terms of filtering, perhaps we could translate that to one of these cheap passive crossovers.
So I'm asking what kind of processing is being done? Is is mostly low pass filtering? Is it relatively consistant on each DAEX32EP-4 so that the same low pass works for the most part regardless of where its placed on the seat?
Maybe its consistent enough even for one person to find the best crossover and let everyone else know so they just skip the inuke and go straight to the fmod?
Or maybe you are boosting and dropping the signal with so much complexity that the only way to get close is to use dsp.
On another point for the frugal out there, I'm thinking one could hunt down a used AVR that has good dsp like MultEQ XT32 and use that for multi channel dsp amp. It wouldn't be made for shakers but the amps from the past with XT32 were very high end $1000+ so I bet a used one could handle the loads just fine and be found for the price of one inuke. Plus you can use HDMI to get your audio so no additional sound card. Thoughts?
edit: this looks neat too
freeDSP-aurora DSP
An Open-Source DSP with 8 inputs and 8 outputs, USB Audio Class 2 and wireless control via Wifi and Bluetooth
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