Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

Right, sorry I will explain my question.
I was thinking after reading this post by bassun that maybe we could use an amp like the inuke to play around with the dsp to figure out what filtering works best with the placement of any of our shakers(but lets talk about the dayton audio DAEX32EP-4 for discussion purposes). Once we know what we want in terms of filtering, perhaps we could translate that to one of these cheap passive crossovers.

So I'm asking what kind of processing is being done? Is is mostly low pass filtering? Is it relatively consistant on each DAEX32EP-4 so that the same low pass works for the most part regardless of where its placed on the seat?
Maybe its consistent enough even for one person to find the best crossover and let everyone else know so they just skip the inuke and go straight to the fmod?

Or maybe you are boosting and dropping the signal with so much complexity that the only way to get close is to use dsp.

On another point for the frugal out there, I'm thinking one could hunt down a used AVR that has good dsp like MultEQ XT32 and use that for multi channel dsp amp. It wouldn't be made for shakers but the amps from the past with XT32 were very high end $1000+ so I bet a used one could handle the loads just fine and be found for the price of one inuke. Plus you can use HDMI to get your audio so no additional sound card. Thoughts?


edit: this looks neat too

freeDSP-aurora DSP

An Open-Source DSP with 8 inputs and 8 outputs, USB Audio Class 2 and wireless control via Wifi and Bluetooth

www.kickstarter.com

Okay so just to make something clear as confusion seems to be happening.

A user does not necessarily need to apply DSP to the "exciters" What we primarily want to do with the exciters because they are similar to full-range audio devices (like speakers) is to cut off the high-frequency sounds to them.

The easiest way we can do this by using the soundcards EQ for the soundcard(s) that are designated for Shakeit tactile. By lowering all the sliders from 250Hz and upwards down it will greatly reduce those frequencies from what is being outputted by the source. Therefore it is giving us the output primarily of the bass we seek.

Soundcard Output For Exciters

Example 1:

Example: 2

It is not a crossover but it can do the job.
This keeps things VERY simple for anyone seeking to buy into the exciters.

We have not looked at using DSP for the "exciters" and while some benefits may come from that I do not see many people wanting to spend that money on something they necessarily do not need. It's a different story when we look at more expensive units like the Buttkickers or Clark TST models. Crossovers are usually used to separate frequencies to go to independent units, eg woofers/midrange driver/tweeter so that each unit with its own specific role/purpose only gets the frequencies it works best with.

I am not sure how good the various crossover filters may work and while I have seen other rotary crossover/controls they too have had some bad reports regards affecting audio quality. May be worth a go but 3rd party PC software is also an option.

 

[Chrhun]

I have my Soundblaster EQ (same as in your pictures) set more or less like that. It reduced the chatter from the exciters.

 

[RCHeliguy]

The NX4-6000 has XLR outputs for the speakers. Why? I understand why for the inputs, but the outputs?
How do you wire them for normal two pole transducers.

 

[frebe]

Hello all,

Been lurking in this thread for a while. Building up for a post where I state my plan to get some feedback, but first a couple of questions to guide my planning. Apologies if these have been answered before.

I'm likely starting out with 4 or 6 DAEX32EP-4 attached to my Sparco chair. To power that a Nobsound NS-20G or Behringer EPQ304 Europower.
First question: Is there any quality preference here for the amp or will any do just fine? Any other differences other the obvious ones such as the form factor that I should consider? I guess an advantage of the Nobsound is that it "scales in smaller increments" if I want to go from 4 to 6 exciters. Price wise it will not make much difference to me.

For the lower freq/better kick I felt like a BK4-4 would be a nice choice, if the 4/6 exciters get me into this. I live in Sweden, Europe. Second question: Who stocks these in Europe? They seem to be very hard to get by. Not that keen on spending an additional $80 for shipping and import duties from the US.

Finally, I live in an apartment building. That means that I have neighbors on the floor below. I have a TR1 Simlab 80/20 rig. Third question: If I isolate my chair, do the MDF board with rubber mat + rubber feet between rig and MDF, as well as MDF and floor (and/or additional mat underneath). What effect should I expect on my neighbors? With only the 4 or 6 exciters? With an additional LFE or BK4-4 under the chair bolted to the 80/20?

Thanks a lot in advance!

BR,
Fredrik

 

[bassun]

Building on frebe's question - has anyone tried those Rockville rack amps? I'm sure the wattage is grossly overestimated, but even at 1/2 or 1/3 of their listed power, they look fine to handle a few of the 50W tactile options we see... if they are "ok" they have bigger options too. (Rockville RPA12 5000W Peak/ 1400W RMS - 2x700 RMS at 4 Ohm $239)

Rockville RPA5 1000 Watt Peak / 500w RMS 2 channel w/ crossover $110USD
RMS Power Output:
Stereo 8 Ohm: 2 x 125W
Stereo 4 Ohm: 2 x 250W
Bridged 4 Ohm: 1 x 500W
Peak Power Output:
Stereo 8 Ohm: 2 x 250W Max
Stereo 4 Ohm: 2 x 400W Max
Bridged 4 Ohm: 1 x 1000W Max

I'm guessing they must be fodder, based on the price, but maybe?

 

[Mr Latte]

The NX4-6000 has XLR outputs for the speakers. Why? I understand why for the inputs, but the outputs?
How do you wire them for normal two pole transducers.

Have another look, need to look closer, the connections are different shapes.
Speaker Outputs are twist/lock SpeakOn connections
Source Inputs are "Combi Jacks" which accept either 6 1/4" or XLR

Advice = Do not buy the NX4-6000
Buy 2x NX3000D (it should be clear by now the benefits the DSP brings for powering large BK units)

As for others querying other amps.
Why did we bother researching, buying/testing the recommended options if people keep trying to better them with something else that has not been bought and tested? The options selected are good quality and good prices for the specs or features or build they offer. Time and effort was put into TRYING to make this simple.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Can I ask why ?

 

[Mr Latte]

The reason is, if your going to buy an amp that will power large BK units

Be it the BK Advance, BK LFE or BK Concert then do not do what some, have done in the past and ignore the advice. Maybe to try to save a few bucks on the non-DSP versions or other options. You gain a lot of control and tuning abilities with having the DSP features.

In particular for creating very high energy deep bass sensations for specific effects.
When you have effects using under 10Hz or indeed, 5Hz that will shake the crap out of your body fat and internals due to the thick bass energy that these units can produce. We get the best out of these, when we have it tuned to work with the source material and get the most out of using the lowest frequencies aiming to achieve a more professional level of high-quality effects. Some effects have been worked on extensively for many hours, even months of testing. These effects were created and tested via the recommended hardware, they will not operate the same on different hardware.

Therefore, we lose this control without the DSP, you will not get the same level of quality or control in the bass then going to the shakers.

The NX4 does not have the DSP.
It may be possible to power the BK Advance and even the BK LFE models with the NX1000D but it seems not much cheaper than the higher wattage NX3000D model.

These amps in USA do seem to be more expensive than the older iNuke DSP models.
I bought several of mine on ebay, you should be able to get them (iNuke 3000DSP) at well below the price of the new NXD models.

I can only give advice and make recommendations based on my own experiences and understanding, yet sometimes I wonder why I bother.

 

[dirty1]

Hi All ..will any of these Amps work with a Buttkicker 2 ? My Buttkicker Amp bit the dust. Thanks

 

[RCHeliguy]

OK I think you talked me out of this. Definitely don't like the idea of shaking the crap out of my internals.

 

[Mr Latte]

OK I think you talked me out of this. Definitely don't like the idea of shaking the crap out of my internals.

LOL did you miss the part where I have been talking about "control of bass" you can use volume and have customised effects to determine the output strength you want.

In a motion rig the vibrations from the movement will shake/penetrate the whole body too. As your aware the user can also determine the energy used as clearly no-one wants to be shaken like crazy. Yet we have guys with motion, spent $$$$ on them and it seems a crime to spend $$$$ on tactile as you can just buy $50 units and experience it, errr well it's not quite the same.

Stop for a moment to consider I have been experimenting with all types of units, over multiple body regions for almost 2 years. Plenty has been learned and improvements made in effects creation as well. Advances in software and what it enables with Shakeit. Currently, right now we can do things with tactile we could not do in the past 12 years since I had my own first experiences with it. So its a rather exciting time (no pun intended).

The expression I gave was to highlight the potential in power we can apply to high energy scenarios.
Yet I fully understand to use that power we need "control" of it. This is why/where the DSP features are beneficial.
I have tested and compared specially built effects for lowest frequencies with DSP features on and off and its easy to conclude the benefits they bring.

This "lowest bass and high energy" can be used in different ways....
Here are some examples:

Powerful impacts (not 40Hz punch) as I am talking deep, robust slam for the chassis, or positional strong energy with suspension bumps. It can be progressive bass sensation building with increasing speed, to replicate force and engine strain. Lateral G forces, making cornering much more satisfying and this building at high speed / applied steering angle. The sensation of inertia, much more realistic engine idle, high energy braking and usage of longitudinal Gs moving front/back in the cockpit. Front or rear felt engine placement, detailed wheelslip, and the best engine RPM sensations combined with what the exciters do.

When we combine the lowest bass with the exciters, we vastly increase the "range" we can use and then apply this felt range to various effects. Either to give different effects their own sensations or to have an effect use a wider range for its operation.

So why should you be interested?

It's far more immersive and what it achieves, increases the emotion as we can tailor the felt sensations and reactions to be different for our own fave cars or types of cars. You "feel" much more connected to the car/track and your user inputs. As tactile compared to motion in this regard has much more potential with expressing "feel" simply because with audio in how frequencies and their output are used, we can continue to create effect sensations that "feel" different or suit individuals' preferences or usage.

To do tactile in the most immersive way we can, then here is what I learned from 2 years experimenting and testing.

1) You want the full 1Hz-200Hz bass range to be at your disposal and control of it
2) Multiple body zones are essential
3) Combining and controlling high energy low bass enables us to deliver much more realism and emotion
4) Installation is important as is vibration control.

People that follow the guidelines for the "concept" will have very enjoyable and immersive tactile. I know this based from months testing and effects experimentation. Others with their own ideas/theories or hardware options are welcome to do their own thing and ignore what is being recommended and shared.

 

[Mr Latte]

Hello all,

Been lurking in this thread for a while. Building up for a post where I state my plan to get some feedback, but first a couple of questions to guide my planning. Apologies if these have been answered before.

I'm likely starting out with 4 or 6 DAEX32EP-4 attached to my Sparco chair. To power that a Nobsound NS-20G or Behringer EPQ304 Europower.
First question: Is there any quality preference here for the amp or will any do just fine? Any other differences other the obvious ones such as the form factor that I should consider? I guess an advantage of the Nobsound is that it "scales in smaller increments" if I want to go from 4 to 6 exciters. Price wise it will not make much difference to me.

For the lower freq/better kick I felt like a BK4-4 would be a nice choice, if the 4/6 exciters get me into this. I live in Sweden, Europe. Second question: Who stocks these in Europe? They seem to be very hard to get by. Not that keen on spending an additional $80 for shipping and import duties from the US.

Finally, I live in an apartment building. That means that I have neighbors on the floor below. I have a TR1 Simlab 80/20 rig. Third question: If I isolate my chair, do the MDF board with rubber mat + rubber feet between rig and MDF, as well as MDF and floor (and/or additional mat underneath). What effect should I expect on my neighbors? With only the 4 or 6 exciters? With an additional LFE or BK4-4 under the chair bolted to the 80/20?

Thanks a lot in advance!

BR,
Fredrik

Hi, @frebe
Keep in mind Nobsound NS-20G is 2channel so only powers 2 units by 1 amp. So you need a new amp for units 3/4 and 5/6.

The EPQ 304, easily lets you control the individual volumes for each channel, a typical amp will not as it has one volume control for all its channels. So you can balance the output or lower the output to specif units easily.

Yes, that can be done in the software too but its a convenience perhaps to some people if on the amp as well.
As Brexit approaches, I am not sure how some UK suppliers may affect prices to your region.

Shaker Center has stocked the BK Advance but to be honest looking at current prices the BK LFE is about £25 more. I would advise you to get the LFE for the very best low Hz response.

LFE Europe
BK Advance (UK)

Spoiler: Do You Want To Know More?:

Just as one effect example:

One of the layers I use for "Lateral G" uses from 2Hz-5Hz it has a unique feel/element to the sensation felt.
I do not think we can get this same sensation with units like the BK Advance. I presume it will deliver more energy with its harmonics closer to 8Hz-20Hz. Still will be nice bass but its not the same sensation.

If you want the best then think beyond "wattages" regards the largest units as its how they can output the low frequencies that is important. BKs listed specs for frequency range look good but are meaningless in this real world application.

Users with typical units in the $50/£50 range (which are many models) cannot experience properly these sensations. That 2Hz-5Hz (fundamental frequency used) on their units would be felt with decent energy only by around the 5th teir or higher harmonic it generates.

About Harmonics

So probably something closer to starting at 20Hz with limited energy will be felt on those budget units as they are incapable of delivering high energy below that. Now this felt sensation from the harmonics is a very different sensation to the one I specifically used/incorporated by design to be felt for the effect.

I spend a LOT of time trying to build very good effects but this is one of the problems.
We need to build effects for specific units to test on those to be certain we get the best from their own operational performance or limitations they have.

For people that buy the recommended hardware that the effects I myself create and test on are sure to get the benefits of the work/experience learned put into those effects. People running around looking to buy different amps or different exciters or transducers are not. Part of the whole idea of the concept is to limit the variations and ensure people get the same quality of experience and immersion.

For the exciters EU/UK look here
Sound Imports


As for vibration control, just search the forums, I have purchased a lot of materials for this. A combination of different vibration/sound deadening can be used as they work more effectively and for different frequencies. Also using isolators for the rig, it is possible yes but it is just something that has to be trial/error.

There are specialists in flooring or the car industry that offer materials for these purposes.

I will show more in time, of my own method used and its a bit crazy what I have done but then so is the tactile my own build is to use. I need to buy 8020 frame to start putting my isolation supports onto and then the seat onto that.

Hope its some help...

 

[Mr Latte]

NEW EFFECTS TEST

Here is the chance for others to perhaps experience the "low bass" effects sensations I have referred to and been developing. So as mentioned over at the Simhub Discord earlier today.

I am seeking owners of the largest BK units:
BK Advance
BK Concert
BK LFE

I want testers that are willing to give feedback on the following latest effects. These have had many hours spent on their development and are amongst the best effects I have created for enhanced "low bass" extension.

These effects I am calling "Pro Bass" effects will be offered via private test for people that have the hardware above as that is the only units these effects are made/intended for.

If interested feel free to contact me over PM stating what units you own, how many and the amps you use.

 

[Dadz]

@Mr Latte a question, for the support which will be under the bucket seat, I plan 2 BK-C.
Can I leave them on the same support or is there a problem?

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte a question, for the support which will be under the bucket seat, I plan 2 BK-C.
Can I leave them on the same support or is there a problem?

Is hard for me to keep up with what different people are doing regards their tactile plans and units they use.
It's easier if people do threads on their own builds then share images and details and place questions in their own threads.

If you seek stereo effects then install them directly to plates for the seat that can be bolted to the seat-risers or seat rails. Have the most direct connection to your seat as possible. Then detach your seat from the main rig with isolators.

I have two Concerts at the moment under my seat, while they do not offer (stereo) they can be used to separate (rpm from speed) as with the quality effects I use a single unit cannot cope with both running and other effects also.

Both, however, can be felt independently and any concerns that multiple large units can/cannot be used on a seat do not seem to be a problem with well thought out effects management.

My own seat will have to two central Concert for mono effects,
Then also Stereo LFE pairs and another Stereo Concert pair.
For even further detail and performance I then use crossover to combine the stereo BK units with thier own Stereo TST units which is done to separate the low/mid bass on those stereo channels.

Its been a challenge trying to cram it all into a seat space but it will be awesome...


New revised installation is in progress.

 

[Dadz]

yes I understand that it is difficult to give advice without having photos or other ..

I have 2 solutions for my 2 BK-C,
1 solution: I fix them using a plate on the rails of the bucket seat
2 solution I fix them directly under the bucket seats.

If I choose to fix them on the rails, in the future I intend to put BK-LFE in stereo and use the support for fixing the bucket.

By choosing this option, all vibrations will have the same path, and I do not think that the rendering is conclusive.

And if I choose the 2nd solution, each will have its own path.

At the moment I have a slider to adjust the position of the bucket. but I will not keep it, I just ordered 6 silent blocks to fix the bucket on the chassis.

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[frebe]

Hi, @frebe
Keep in mind Nobsound NS-20G is 2channel so only powers 2 units by 1 amp. So you need a new amp for units 3/4 and 5/6.

The EPQ 304, easily lets you control the individual volumes for each channel, a typical amp will not as it has one volume control for all its channels. So you can balance the output or lower the output to specif units easily.

Yes, that can be done in the software too but its a convenience perhaps to some people if on the amp as well.
As Brexit approaches, I am not sure how some UK suppliers may affect prices to your region.

Shaker Center has stocked the BK Advance but to be honest looking at current prices the BK LFE is about £25 more. I would advise you to get the LFE for the very best low Hz response.

LFE Europe
BK Advance (UK)

Spoiler: Do You Want To Know More?:

Just as one effect example:

One of the layers I use for "Lateral G" uses from 2Hz-5Hz it has a unique feel/element to the sensation felt.
I do not think we can get this same sensation with units like the BK Advance. I presume it will deliver more energy with its harmonics closer to 8Hz-20Hz. Still will be nice bass but its not the same sensation.

If you want the best then think beyond "wattages" regards the largest units as its how they can output the low frequencies that is important. BKs listed specs for frequency range look good but are meaningless in this real world application.

Users with typical units in the $50/£50 range (which are many models) cannot experience properly these sensations. That 2Hz-5Hz (fundamental frequency used) on their units would be felt with decent energy only by around the 5th teir or higher harmonic it generates.

About Harmonics

So probably something closer to starting at 20Hz with limited energy will be felt on those budget units as they are incapable of delivering high energy below that. Now this felt sensation from the harmonics is a very different sensation to the one I specifically used/incorporated by design to be felt for the effect.

I spend a LOT of time trying to build very good effects but this is one of the problems.
We need to build effects for specific units to test on those to be certain we get the best from their own operational performance or limitations they have.

For people that buy the recommended hardware that the effects I myself create and test on are sure to get the benefits of the work/experience learned put into those effects. People running around looking to buy different amps or different exciters or transducers are not. Part of the whole idea of the concept is to limit the variations and ensure people get the same quality of experience and immersion.

For the exciters EU/UK look here
Sound Imports


As for vibration control, just search the forums, I have purchased a lot of materials for this. A combination of different vibration/sound deadening can be used as they work more effectively and for different frequencies. Also using isolators for the rig, it is possible yes but it is just something that has to be trial/error.

There are specialists in flooring or the car industry that offer materials for these purposes.

I will show more in time, of my own method used and its a bit crazy what I have done but then so is the tactile my own build is to use. I need to buy 8020 frame to start putting my isolation supports onto and then the seat onto that.

Hope its some help...

@Mr Latte : It helps, absolutely. Thanks.

I do realize that the Nobsound offer 2 channels. So prize wise my conclusion is for 4 exciters it's basically the same prize if I go with 2 x Nobsound vs. 1 EPQ 304. Hence the question whether this mostly a matter of taste, or if there are any considerations I've missed. But I think I have all information I need to make this decision (will be based on how I think I will proceed with upgrading)

Good point on the BK4-4 vs LFE.

Regarding taking care of the vibrations I've seen the posts in the forum and will certainly do a more thorough study when/if I start this for real. And I do realize this is up to experimentation and trial and error. My question is however: With the solutions I find in this forum, will I be able to keep enough vibrations away from the floor in order to keep a good relationship with my neighbors downstairs or is it inevitable that some of the vibrations will "leak"? What is the general consensus on that?

 

[bassun]

@frebe vibrations are vibrations, regardless of the cause, they can be stopped. It is merely a matter of how much, and what combination, etc. it will actually take to stop it. With enough layers, you can stop it. That is the real question, how much will it take to stop yours... I don't think even Mr Latte can tell you what it will take to stop your vibrations, however, you can see he is taking a very active and aggressive approach to isolation, albeit probably for slightly different reasons. I've seen a few posts regarding the same question and the suggestions have been to use multiple "layers" of different forms of deadening / isolation materials. Ideally, the more you can isolate the vibrations from the base of your rig to begin with, the less you will need below your rig to protect your neighbors. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte : It helps, absolutely. Thanks.

I do realize that the Nobsound offer 2 channels. So prize wise my conclusion is for 4 exciters it's basically the same prize if I go with 2 x Nobsound vs. 1 EPQ 304. Hence the question whether this mostly a matter of taste, or if there are any considerations I've missed. But I think I have all information I need to make this decision (will be based on how I think I will proceed with upgrading)

Good point on the BK4-4 vs LFE.

Regarding taking care of the vibrations I've seen the posts in the forum and will certainly do a more thorough study when/if I start this for real. And I do realize this is up to experimentation and trial and error. My question is however: With the solutions I find in this forum, will I be able to keep enough vibrations away from the floor in order to keep a good relationship with my neighbors downstairs or is it inevitable that some of the vibrations will "leak"? What is the general consensus on that?

No probs, I bought both but have not done proper comparisons on them (been too busy). I personally prefer the EPQ304 (with fan mod). One reason not previously brought up is, while it also looks more professional/rack-mountable it can use balanced cables for its source inputs.

As it is not relying on unbalanced inputs like the Nobsound does with its RCA connections. So the EPQ 304 will not suffer from any potential interference from airwaves or other electronics.

A plinth/base of some type for the cockpit is the way forward. You could add various isolation to this and maybe even use the base if you wanted to store amps and cables. Depends how much work you want to give yourself but yes I have the same issue as my rig is upstairs in a bedroom.

For a cheap solution, then an mdf board covered with 1-3 layers of different sound/vibration isolation, and with 4-5 of these in beneath could be rather effective. Just an idea, depends on what dimensions you intend to use for a base as well what may be suitable.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Dadz

Thanks for getting back
Personally I would advise you use more professional isolators as you are using high energy units. I will upload an edited image for an idea to consider to installing 2 units in stereo.

Just quick examples or approach to consider.
The steel plate you used could be a shape that suits having the units in below the seat if you prefer this to them on the outer sides. I would consider a "T" shape that lets the BK sit in beneath the seat but is connected to the full length of the seat rail in some fashion as well.


Key:
Yellow = BK Units

Blue = Steel Plate (have it connect with underneath the seat)
Note it should be ontop seat rail not below as illustrated.

Green = area you could have contact to the underside of the seat to help deliver stereo

Red = Isolators (min 4)

You will need to consider how you support the seat between the horizontal sections, dropping the height to accommodate the isolators being used. Depending on where you live we can look at alternative isolators that are more up to the level you should be considering with this level of bass.

Most peoples installations, they do not consider doing what the "Green" illustrates. For a bucket seat this should be considered as the bucket seat relies only on 4 bolts to deliver its primary energy into the seat with typically installed transducers via the seat rails or supports.

Do you need the seat rails?
If you consider any recommendations, then check first your ideas before ordering.
Your welcome to start your own thread as well to discuss solely on your build