Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[drvrn]

Whatever floats your boat!

If you are seriously into flight, there is simshaker for aviators, but it does not appear to be in the same league as SimHub. I'll be setting it up soon to see for myself.

What's good is up to you.

Ok. Thank you for advice.

I am using Simhub and I like it.

 

[cnhoff]

I put my seat LFE and TST on one stereo output, so i can at least leverage those for Simshaker for Aviators. With only the seat LFE you basically don't feel higher bass stuff like gear or flaps moving. The LFE adds a nice "chop-chop" to the helis.

Works pretty well with minimal effort now, the same mono signal is fed to both LFE and TST. Putting my pedal and set back units to work for a multi-channel solution would require much more effort, as Simshaker is far from Simhub's flexibility and functionality.

 

[clay_statue]

I have my dial around 2-3 o'clock. I think it's around 2.30 right now. I backed it off a click or two and increased the Simhub volume from 50% to 60%. It made no sense to me to use only half of the software gain while having the amp turned up more than it probably needed to be.

Okay that's reasonable amount of gain. Needing to max out the gain would make me want to go for 3000w. 2-3 o'clock ain't bad! Seems like 1000w is sufficient for a Buttkicker LFE. I went ahead and bought one based on your recommendation. Seems like there's plenty of hardware that does 20-100hz reasonably well, but only the LFE does 5-20hz very well.

I recently have measured the power draw under full load on my tactile system which consists of 2 LFEs, 2 TSTs (239 and 329) and 2 mini LFEs, all connected to 2 NX1000D and 1 NX3000D.

Surprisingly, the power draw never exceeded 100W above idle (peak reading on a simple outlet unit), so i think although you probably need more power to drive spikes in certain situations the idea of needing several thousands of Watts for big shakers seems exaggerated.

This is very valuable information. My next mission is to buy my amp and there are a couple of reasonably priced iNuke's in the 1000w range on ebay (without DSP). Seems like the 3000w Behringer's command a premium, even used, so if I can confidently get away with only 1000w it takes the pressure off the budget enough to get a Dayton 408DSP 4x8 which gives me the ability to EVERYTHING (four DAEX32EP-4's, the TST239 and the LFE).

 

[anton_Chez]

Yes you'll not get another unit, except for the large Earthquake model which is more expensive, that does the low hz anywhere near as well as a large BK. Like I said before, if you can only get one unit, get that one, because it destroys any other unit at low hz, which is important for sim racing, and it also does reasonably well up to 100hz. You will still feel it up at that range. Once you have one of those, you can feel comfortable adding either a TST unit that matches your budget, or even a couple of Dayton BST-1 / BST-2 units for that higher end. They do surprisingly well from a small amp and mounted to the seat, give excellent feedback to compliment a large BK unit.

In a way, I honestly don't really see what the TST units do better than a BK LFE / Concert + a couple of the larger Dayton units listed above. For the price of a single TST 429, you can have a BK LFE, 2 x BST-1's and a small amp to power them. That just leaves something like an NX1000D to power the LFE. Much better use of funds in my opinion.

 

[cnhoff]

Yes you'll not get another unit, except for the large Earthquake model which is more expensive, that does the low hz anywhere near as well as a large BK. Like I said before, if you can only get one unit, get that one, because it destroys any other unit at low hz, which is important for sim racing, and it also does reasonably well up to 100hz. You will still feel it up at that range. Once you have one of those, you can feel comfortable adding either a TST unit that matches your budget, or even a couple of Dayton BST-1 / BST-2 units for that higher end. They do surprisingly well from a small amp and mounted to the seat, give excellent feedback to compliment a large BK unit.

In a way, I honestly don't really see what the TST units do better than a BK LFE / Concert + a couple of the larger Dayton units listed above. For the price of a single TST 429, you can have a BK LFE, 2 x BST-1's and a small amp to power them. That just leaves something like an NX1000D to power the LFE. Much better use of funds in my opinion.

I fully appreciate what the TSTs i have in addition to the LFEs contribute especially in the 60-80Hz range which are e.g. important for a crisp kerb feeling. I agree, the LFE delivers in the very low range which gives very nice sensation, but if you can, add a TST for better mid bass stuff, it just feels much more defined to me. The TSTs can deliver well into the 1xx Hz range but that is not important to me

I would totally vote against a 429 though, it is grossly overspeced for our application. I am using a 329 under the seat and a 239 under the pedals and both are easily able to handle those at medium gain settings on my NX1000D. They are not cheap, but definitively much better priced than a 429 which you would anyway probably only run at 25%. A 239/209 along with 2 LFEs could probably achieve the same. I am fully aware that even that lower configuration would be a pretty high-end tactile setup though. There might be other units that can achieve the same at a lower price point, i am commenting about the units i have

 

[RCHeliguy]

Anton, I'm curious how you measured the wattage used.

Measuring from the outlet side doesn't work. There is a buffer that is being constantly refilled so that very high transient spikes can be handled without. Obviously my NX4-6000 can not actually deliver 6000W continuously. It has a single plug and can only pull 1800W before the circuit breaker will pop. In fact they have been tested and shown to produce below their rated capacity.

I have a Wattmeter, but I've yet to see one that captures instantaneous max values.

Are you using something inside the DSP unit that measures this?

 

[cnhoff]

Anton, I'm curious how you measured the wattage used.

Measuring from the outlet side doesn't work. There is a buffer that is being constantly refilled so that very high transient spikes can be handled without. Obviously my NX4-6000 can not actually deliver 6000W continuously. It has a single plug and can only pull 1800W before the circuit breaker will pop. In fact they have been tested and shown to produce below their rated capacity.

I have a Wattmeter, but I've yet to see one that captures instantaneous max values.

Are you using something inside the DSP unit that measures this?

Mark,

I have used a simple outlet meter and put that into the disclaimer. I am aware that a PA supplies make use of large capacitors to support large transients.

My point was to highlight that the maximum ratings on the shakers and the amplifiers mean little about the actual requirements to drive a larger tactile setup. The average power draw from the outlet might be of interest to people though.

 

[anton_Chez]

Anton, I'm curious how you measured the wattage used.

Measuring from the outlet side doesn't work. There is a buffer that is being constantly refilled so that very high transient spikes can be handled without. Obviously my NX4-6000 can not actually deliver 6000W continuously. It has a single plug and can only pull 1800W before the circuit breaker will pop. In fact they have been tested and shown to produce below their rated capacity.

I have a Wattmeter, but I've yet to see one that captures instantaneous max values.

Are you using something inside the DSP unit that measures this?

I think you have me mixed up with cnhoff. I did not do any measurements, simply stated how I am using my amp to power the BK Concert.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Mark,

I have used a simple outlet meter and put that into the disclaimer. I am aware that a PA supplies make use of large capacitors to support large transients.

My point was to highlight that the maximum ratings on the shakers and the amplifiers mean little about the actual requirements to drive a larger tactile setup. The average power draw from the outlet might be of interest to people though.

The average power draw is going to be pretty low. That is a given.

Whether you clip the split second impulse given to the transducer is another story.

I'm not saying that invalidates anything.

I can say that I've got my TST's set to 11 and 1pm on my NX4-6000. At 4ohm that would ideally allow about 375W, but it is actually lower than that. The TST-429's can handle 160W continuous and 400W peak. My BK-CT's are both set at about 12 o'clock and they are 2 ohms so that would ideally be 750W at full power but it is lower than that.

Having head room prevents clipping which tears things apart. However I still have yet to find a reasonable way to measure what is actually going to my transducers.

 

[cnhoff]

The average power draw is going to be pretty low. That is a given.

Whether you clip the split second impulse given to the transducer is another story.

I'm not saying that invalidates anything.

I can say that I've got my TST's set to 11 and 1pm on my NX4-6000. At 4ohm that would ideally allow about 375W, but it is actually lower than that. The TST-429's can handle 160W continuous and 400W peak. My BK-CT's are both set at about 12 o'clock and they are 2 ohms so that would ideally be 750W at full power but it is lower than that.

Having head room prevents clipping which tears things apart. However I still have yet to find a reasonable way to measure what is actually going to my transducers.

You would typically use a measuring bridge to couple out some amount of power and a spectrum analyzer or scope to be able to judge the time-domain signal and spectrum. Don't have any of those handy at home

 

[RCHeliguy]

You would typically use a measuring bridge to couple out some amount of power and a spectrum analyzer or scope to be able to judge the time-domain signal and spectrum. Don't have any of those handy at home

I sold my last oscilloscope because I never used it. Owning one was a stupid craving of a BSEE who thought it might be cool.

I was thinking I could just use my power meter but quickly realized that was pointless.

 

[TyPolar]

I fully appreciate what the TSTs i have in addition to the LFEs contribute especially in the 60-80Hz range which are e.g. important for a crisp kerb feeling. I agree, the LFE delivers in the very low range which gives very nice sensation, but if you can, add a TST for better mid bass stuff, it just feels much more defined to me. The TSTs can deliver well into the 1xx Hz range but that is not important to me

I would totally vote against a 429 though, it is grossly overspeced for our application. I am using a 329 under the seat and a 239 under the pedals and both are easily able to handle those at medium gain settings on my NX1000D. They are not cheap, but definitively much better priced than a 429 which you would anyway probably only run at 25%. A 239/209 along with 2 LFEs could probably achieve the same. I am fully aware that even that lower configuration would be a pretty high-end tactile setup though. There might be other units that can achieve the same at a lower price point, i am commenting about the units i have

Have you tried the TST 429?
I ordered 2 NX3000D amps yesterday and can’t decide on what 2 TST to buy. I could get 2 TST 329, 4 exciters and amp for the price of 2 TST 429. I also don’t want to have regrets for not getting the 429 later down the road.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Have you tried the TST 429?
I ordered 2 NX3000D amps yesterday and can’t decide on what 2 TST to buy. I could get 2 TST 329, 4 exciters and amp for the price of 2 TST 429. I also don’t want to have regrets for not getting the 429 later down the road.

I've got a TST-329 and now 2 x TST-429's.

The TST-329 is a good unit and works well.
The TST-429 is twice as efficient and goes a bit lower.

I would consider the TST-329 good enough and the TST-429 better. I initially got a TST-329 and then decided to try a TST-429. When I got setup with both my feet and my seat, I decided I wanted a matched pair.

I like the TST-429 because I can run it at a lower volume making me less likely to blow it up and because it has a higher max wattage for the same reason. It is more powerful.

I can't say if you would regret it or not. There is one practical difference. The 329 can be mounted vertically. The 429 needs to be horizontal.

 

[TyPolar]

I've got a TST-329 and now 2 x TST-429's.

The TST-329 is a good unit and works well.
The TST-429 is twice as efficient and goes a bit lower.

I would consider the TST-329 good enough and the TST-429 better. I initially got a TST-329 and then decided to try a TST-429. When I got setup with both my feet and my seat, I decided I wanted a matched pair.

I like the TST-429 because I can run it at a lower volume making me less likely to blow it up and because it has a higher max wattage for the same reason. It is more powerful.

I can't say if you would regret it or not. There is one practical difference. The 329 can be mounted vertically. The 429 needs to be horizontal.

Thanks.
Can the 429 cover the same frequencies or close to 4 of the 32EP-4 exciters on the back of the seat?
Is the Dayton audio dsp necessary for the 32EP-4 exciters? I'm good with buying the exciters and an amp, but if the exciters only increase the tactile immersion by 5-10%, than the additional cost and time of the dsp isn't worth it to me.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Thanks.
Can the 429 cover the same frequencies or close to 4 of the 32EP-4 exciters on the back of the seat?
Is the Dayton audio dsp necessary for the 32EP-4 exciters? I'm good with buying the exciters and an amp, but if the exciters only increase the tactile immersion by 5-10%, than the additional cost and time of the dsp isn't worth it to me.

The exciters do act in a supporting roll, but they do bring some useful immersion to the table. The DSP's help to protect the exciters that are easier to burn out.

I think having a seat belt tensioning system that keeps you snuggly belted to your seat makes a difference to how much you feel from the exciters.

If you are already shelling out some serious coin, you might consider a Race Bass system to help guarantee that you end up with something really good. It's just an option that takes the guesswork out of this and provides a path to get to a good end result. But it's also been highly politicized here, so that's all I'll say about that.

 

[drvrn]

I put my seat LFE and TST on one stereo output, so i can at least leverage those for Simshaker for Aviators. With only the seat LFE you basically don't feel higher bass stuff like gear or flaps moving. The LFE adds a nice "chop-chop" to the helis.

Works pretty well with minimal effort now, the same mono signal is fed to both LFE and TST. Putting my pedal and set back units to work for a multi-channel solution would require much more effort, as Simshaker is far from Simhub's flexibility and functionality.

I like the idea of the "chop-chop" vibrations for the helis made by the BK LFE!
I am going to buy a BK LFE.

 

[drvrn]

The average power draw is going to be pretty low. That is a given.

Whether you clip the split second impulse given to the transducer is another story.

I'm not saying that invalidates anything.

I can say that I've got my TST's set to 11 and 1pm on my NX4-6000. At 4ohm that would ideally allow about 375W, but it is actually lower than that. The TST-429's can handle 160W continuous and 400W peak. My BK-CT's are both set at about 12 o'clock and they are 2 ohms so that would ideally be 750W at full power but it is lower than that.

Having head room prevents clipping which tears things apart. However I still have yet to find a reasonable way to measure what is actually going to my transducers.

I have decided to buy a BK LFE (thanks cnhoff!) and I am looking at the TST 429 that you mention often but I can not find the 160W continuous and 400W peak that you are mentioning.

TST429 Platinum Transducer

The TST429 platinum provides the ultimate performance and output of full-fidelity, full-frequency sound with a frequency response from 5hz to 17kHz.

clarksynthesis.com

https://clarksynthesis.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/TST-429_Brochure.pdf

I see here only 135W continuous. And no mention of 400W peak also.

Do you have special edition of TST429 maybe?
Or can you please explain how you measure the 160W and 400W that you write.
Thank you.

 

[TyPolar]

The exciters do act in a supporting roll, but they do bring some useful immersion to the table. The DSP's help to protect the exciters that are easier to burn out.

I think having a seat belt tensioning system that keeps you snuggly belted to your seat makes a difference to how much you feel from the exciters.

If you are already shelling out some serious coin, you might consider a Race Bass system to help guarantee that you end up with something really good. It's just an option that takes the guesswork out of this and provides a path to get to a good end result. But it's also been highly politicized here, so that's all I'll say about that.

Makes sense. My G Belt should be here tomorrow.

What amp and dsp are you using for your exciters?
Looks like the EPQ304 is the suggested amp for the exciters, but the douk audio amp is much smaller and cheaper.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I see here only 135W continuous. And no mention of 400W peak also.

Do you have special edition of TST429 maybe?
Or can you please explain how you measure the 160W and 400W that you write.
Thank you.

It appears that there are multiple specs floating around. I'm not sure why.

I would like to think Clark Synthesis would get it right on their own website, but typically 135W is what is listed for the TST329 and not the TST429. Then again maybe Parts Express and other places are wrong.

I can google half a dozen places that list the 429 as 160W.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Makes sense. My G Belt should be here tomorrow.

What amp and dsp are you using for your exciters?
Looks like the EPQ304 is the suggested amp for the exciters, but the douk audio amp is much smaller and cheaper.

I have the EPQ304 and t.racks mini dsp,. However a number of people have reported not having the t.racks units recognized by the usb connectors on their PC's, so that one is hit or miss.

However their are all in one DSP/amp's out that are less expensive. You just have to set the volume in software.