Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[chris82009]

Yes, many of us have done that. It's pretty much the best way to get the output straight into your rear end.

It really boils down to how much putting holes in your nice seat will bother you going forward.

Not at all, when modifying almost anything you will often have to break an egg to make an omelete. I just wanted to make sure that this was indeed what most people were doing. Should I make a metal bracket to help provide less stress on the fiberglass holes? Or is just straight onto the chair fine? Its 2 x BK advance powered by an nx1000d if the helps. The chair is a NRG FRP300BL.

 

[blekenbleu]

NRG FRP300BL

Adding a substantial metal bracket works against tactile energy transfer.
25mm or so o.d. washers, perhaps neoprene-backed, should adequately distribute stresses.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Not at all, when modifying almost anything you will often have to break an egg to make an omelete. I just wanted to make sure that this was indeed what most people were doing. Should I make a metal bracket to help provide less stress on the fiberglass holes? Or is just straight onto the chair fine? Its 2 x BK advance powered by an nx1000d if the helps. The chair is a NRG FRP300BL.

Other option is connecting to seat mounts with some brackets like the one from sim-lab. But you absolutely need to isolate mounts from the rest of the rig after that, plus impact won't be as direct.
If you don't have seat yet, Corbeau FX comes with M8 threaded mounting posts at the bottom that can be used to mount transducers.

EDIT: Almost forgot RaceBass solution, which is a big square plate on isolators with the seat sitting on the top.

 

[Peterpan6666]

Yes, many of us have done that. It's pretty much the best way to get the output straight into your rear end.

It really boils down to how much putting holes in your nice seat will bother you going forward.

Will a fibreglass seat support a BK Concert plus a TST329 or is this being done with smaller transducers? Any pics? I’m at the stage of considering ordering a metal plate(s) to fix to the bottom of the seat brackets and am now rethinking the whole installation.

 

[Atak_Kat]

Will a fibreglass seat support a BK Concert plus a TST329 or is this being done with smaller transducers?

I have my BK CT mounted straight to the bottom of my seat (Sparco Grid Q) and no issues have ever been seen. I even have some extra holes in the same area, where I had a BK mini before changing to the BKCT. I use it constantly, with spotify as well while I'm not sim-racing. I don't find any stressing or cracking anywhere. No idea if my seat is stronger/weaker than others.

 

[EsxPaul]

is just straight onto the chair fine?

Straight on will be fine. Just use some washers as @blekenbleu mentioned and you won't get any cracking on the seat

@Perterpan6666 I haven't got a TST myself but I don't see any reason why one of those would cause any more stress than a large BK.

 

[chris82009]

Other option is connecting to seat mounts with some brackets like the one from sim-lab. But you absolutely need to isolate mounts from the rest of the rig after that, plus impact won't be as direct.
If you don't have seat yet, Corbeau FX comes with M8 threaded mounting posts at the bottom that can be used to mount transducers.

EDIT: Almost forgot RaceBass solution, which is a big square plate on isolators with the seat sitting on the top.

Do you have a link to this racebass solution? I tried googling it and could not find it anywhere. I just want to see what my options are. I just bought these rubber isolators and was going to install these under my seats. Seems like an affordable way to get SOME isolation. Is it the best, no, but I think it should provide enough isolation when the shakers are mounted right to my seat to not matter...? I also ordered four to go on my pedal plate section.

4pcs Anti vibration Rubber Shock Mounts Isolator Absorber M4-M5-M6-M8-M10-M12 | eBay

Anti-Vibration Isolator Mounts,Rubber Cylindrical Vibration Isolation Mount.

www.ebay.com

 

[Peterpan6666]

Same here Chris, I’ll be using four of the original hard rubber feet that came with my P1X and further down the road can always upgrade if required.

@EsxPaul Thanks very much for those images. Looks nice and tidy and keeps things simple by not placing an additional material through which the vibrations must travel, which I’d say is a good starting point. Experimentation with all that stuff can come later should the need arise.

So that leaves the placement of the TST329 in question. I have decided to remove the seat mover, in part because it is being replaced under warranty in January, but also to allow me to focus on a good tactile installation and setup without the distraction of motion.

I recall having seen an image of Heliguys rig where I believe there was a TSTXXX attached to the side of the seat and mounted to the seat bracket in a vertical position. If I were do to that then I’d only have one TST329 on one side (with the BK CT under the seat). Would that work in terms of asymmetric sensation I wonder. Seems like I’d get a strong sensation on one side and less on the other.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Do you have a link to this racebass solution? I tried googling it and could not find it anywhere. I just want to see what my options are. I just bought these rubber isolators and was going to install these under my seats. Seems like an affordable way to get SOME isolation. Is it the best, no, but I think it should provide enough isolation when the shakers are mounted right to my seat to not matter...? I also ordered four to go on my pedal plate section.

4pcs Anti vibration Rubber Shock Mounts Isolator Absorber M4-M5-M6-M8-M10-M12 | eBay

Anti-Vibration Isolator Mounts,Rubber Cylindrical Vibration Isolation Mount.

www.ebay.com

These are not good for seat due to high lateral flex.
I used them for few months and recently replaced with this solution. Much more stable while still providing good isolation.

https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/isolation-for-rig-on-wheels-in-apartment-block-inc-tactile-feedback.206140/page-3#post-3450105

Video in action

 

[chris82009]

These are not good for seat due to high lateral flex.
I used them for few months and recently replaced with this solution. Much more stable while still providing good isolation.

https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/isolation-for-rig-on-wheels-in-apartment-block-inc-tactile-feedback.206140/page-3#post-3450105

Video in action

Can you per chance check what the length of the bolt you ordered was? That looks perfect, but the links on that page are old. So now the bolt has multiple sizes to select from, and the locking nut is not there any longer; because I'm guessing it was a m8 locking nut, but I can just grab those from the local hardware store. Thanks

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Can you per chance check what the length of the bolt you ordered was? That looks perfect, but the links on that page are old. So now the bolt has multiple sizes to select from, and the locking nut is not there any longer; because I'm guessing it was a m8 locking nut, but I can just grab those from the local hardware store. Thanks

Yeah, locking nuts are M8 of course, seems like amazon is out of those and shows the wrong size. The bolt is M8 x 45, but length might vary depending on installation.

 

[chris82009]

Straight on will be fine. Just use some washers as @blekenbleu mentioned and you won't get any cracking on the seat

View attachment 524772
View attachment 524773

@Perterpan6666 I haven't got a TST myself but I don't see any reason why one of those would cause any more stress than a large BK.

@EsxPaul Where did you get those nice-looking countersink washers used in that last picture? Also, what head type is that bolt? I can't tell from the picture. Thanks

 

[Peterpan6666]

This vibration isolation stuff is a rabbit hole, lol. So the neoprene washers are hard to find in the UK and I have been looking into alternatives. The link below is for a UK website which has a large selection of components for such a task.

So we’re after minimal to no flex with maximum isolation which is why I did like the neoprene solution in that it can be adjusted to reduce flex. When it comes to flex the term seems to be “compression load“ which is the maximum load a material can take before deformation occurs.

What I’m thinking is to go for vibration isolation where the total weight is as close to the compression load figure as possible, so that we maximise the vibration reduction while keeping unwanted flex under control. My untested assumption is that we are after as soft a material as possible to maximise the vibration dampening effects and that matching weight to compression load achieves that. A material with a compression load of 300kg will be harder and not as effective at reducing vibrations, right?

e.g. Myself, chair, seat brackets, transducers plus fixings combined weight is around 87kg, so with four anti vibration mounts spreading the load, each mount should have a compression load as close to 22kg as possible.

Here is a decent selection I made having specified some criteria…

Anti Vibration Mounts | AV Mounts | RS

Shop our range of Fixed Height Mounts & Feet supplies & accessories. Free Next Day Delivery. Browse our latest Fixed Height Mounts & Feet offers.

uk.rs-online.com

Here are the ones I am ordering….

2520VV20-35 | FIBET M8 Anti Vibration Mount, Male to Male Bobbin with 22.4kg Compression Load | RS

uk.rs-online.com

Another factor to consider is compression deflection which for the ones I’m buying is 4mm. I’m no engineer so may not be on the right track here, but it all seems to make sense.

Edit: With all that said, I hadn’t factored in that when braking hard there will be more load on the rear vibration mounts as the seat presses back. Also, a seat mover will apply much stronger jolting forces than a stationary seat. Offset by going on a diet?

 

[Deleted member 197115]

This vibration isolation stuff is a rabbit hole, lol. So the neoprene washers are hard to find in the UK and I have been looking into alternatives. The link below is for a UK website which has a large selection of components for such a task.

So we’re after minimal to no flex with maximum isolation which is why I did like the neoprene solution in that it can be adjusted to reduce flex. When it comes to flex the term seems to be “compression load“ which is the maximum load a material can take before deformation occurs.

What I’m thinking is to go for vibration isolation where the total weight is as close to the compression load figure as possible, so that we maximise the vibration reduction while keeping unwanted flex under control. My untested assumption is that we are after as soft a material as possible to maximise the vibration dampening effects and that matching weight to compression load achieves that. A material with a compression load of 300kg will be harder and not as effective at reducing vibrations, right?

e.g. Myself, chair, seat brackets, transducers plus fixings combined weight is around 87kg, so with four anti vibration mounts spreading the load each mount should have a compression load close to 22kg as possible.

Here is a decent selection I made having specified some criteria…

Anti Vibration Mounts | AV Mounts | RS

Shop our range of Fixed Height Mounts & Feet supplies & accessories. Free Next Day Delivery. Browse our latest Fixed Height Mounts & Feet offers.

uk.rs-online.com

Here are the ones I am ordering….

2520VV20-35 | FIBET M8 Anti Vibration Mount, Male to Male Bobbin with 22.4kg Compression Load | RS

uk.rs-online.com

Another factor to consider is compression deflection which for the ones I’m buying is 4mm. I’m no engineer so may not be on the right track here, but it all seems to make sense.

Edit: With all that said, I hadn’t factored in that when braking hard there will be more load on the rear vibration mounts as the seat presses back. Also, a seat mover will apply much stronger forces than a stationary seat. I guess I’ll see how I get on.

Those bobbins will always have lateral flex, work perhaps for pedal plate, but if you have decent pedals with load cell the seat will be leaning back under hard braking. Solution with straight through bolt minimizes that effect.

 

[Peterpan6666]

Those bobbins will always have lateral flex, work perhaps for pedal plate, but if you have decent pedals with load cell the seat will be leaning back under hard braking. Solution with straight through bolt minimizes that effect.

Ah, right. They are designed for vertical forces so the numbers can’t be applied to sim rigs use case. Oh well, back to the search. Thanks for that.

 

[EsxPaul]

I recall having seen an image of Heliguys rig where I believe there was a TSTXXX attached to the side of the seat and mounted to the seat bracket in a vertical position. If I were do to that then I’d only have one TST329 on one side (with the BK CT under the seat). Would that work in terms of asymmetric sensation I wonder. Seems like I’d get a strong sensation on one side and less on the other.

This is just personal preference but I'd try to find a way to get a single TST in the centre if at all possible. If I couldn't find room to get it under the seat, I'd prefer to move it up toward my back and have the output centred into my body.

@EsxPaul Where did you get those nice-looking countersink washers used in that last picture? Also, what head type is that bolt? I can't tell from the picture. Thanks

No worries. They are M6 x 24mm Load Spreading Cone Washers along with M6 button head bolts. I found the washers on ebay and the bolts on amazon.

 

[Peterpan6666]

This is just personal preference but I'd try to find a way to get a single TST in the centre if at all possible. If I couldn't find room to get it under the seat, I'd prefer to move it up toward my back and have the output centred into my body.

No worries. They are M6 x 24mm Load Spreading Cone Washers along with M6 button head bolts. I found the washers on ebay and the bolts on amazon.

Thanks, that confirms symmetry is favoured. I have the BK CT and TST both jockeying for position under the seat and won’t know until I get it off and turn it over, if they’ll both fit. Just need to plan things for when the seat mover goes back into the rig so maybe the TST near the rear and the BK CT forward of that to take advantage of the extra room the tilt of the seat provides. I’m pretty sure I’ll be using a chipboard strip, spanning the seat brackets, for the TST and, given room, the BK directly into the seat.

In the end I went for these for vibration isolation. I’ll drill out the threads and drill an M8 hole all the way through and then use a separate threaded bolt through the core. I looked at other options but the material you’re getting is a complete guess with no specs on tolerances and the like.

RS PRO M8 Anti Vibration Mount, Female Buffer Foot with 57.04kg Compression Load | RS

uk.rs-online.com

 

[anton_Chez]

You will fit a TST and CT under the seat. I've done it as you say, piece of timber for each spanning the seat mounts left to right under the seat. It's a tight squeeze on my chassis, the way it's framed with the cross braces but it definitely fits.

 

[cnhoff]

For the guys and gals running isolator setups on the P1-X pedal deck/tray, I would greatly appreciate if you would post pics of how you installed/mounted them.

Trying to brainstorm ideas on how to properly install this, and figured I could leverage some of the great ideas you’ve already come up with. Thanks!

I have done a pretty straightforward solution that would probably work on most 8020-style rig using aluminium plates that hold an LFE and TST each on the bottom, while supporting the seat/pedals on top.
Those plates are isolated from the main rig via spring/rubber isolators. Don't mind the mess on the pedals, this was before the recent cable managment activities

I have since then upgraded the pedal assembly to accomodate for exchangable rudder and race pedals via a second plate that attaches to the now shaker-only baseplate via threaded rods and quick-release levers. IIt allows me to change from race-to-flight in little time with no felt effect on the tactile sensation. This also preserves the ability to use all shakers for race and flight and the actual pedal plates are quite easy to handle as they don't have the heavy shaker's mounted to them.

The picture is with the rudder pedals attached ( and impoved cabling )

 

[metalnwood]

For the guys and gals running isolator setups on the P1-X pedal deck/tray, I would greatly appreciate if you would post pics of how you installed/mounted them.

Trying to brainstorm ideas on how to properly install this, and figured I could leverage some of the great ideas you’ve already come up with. Thanks!

I have only seen Peter W and another using the racebass that you are getting and how they have mounted them.

I did this - but I didnt use the P1 pedal tray so its not a lot of use to you unless you see some benefit with what I did that you want to follow. Even so, maybe you get another idea from it.

Forgetting my pictures below, for the p1 I would think about removing the center piece of profile and mounting the isolators in the four corners on the other two remaining pieces of profile. The center piece you removed will allow space for tactile to hang in from the new pedal tray you will need to construct. The new pedal tray will sit on the isolators and you will mount the pedals on the top side and tactile on the underside where is can hang in that gap below. I hope this makes some sense?

I would look at Peters thread, he has some pictures of how he has done it, these are mine here. The top own one on mine is the actual pedal tray sitting on the isolators that are sitting on the sliders I made.