Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

It's unfortunate you found out the hard way but everyone has to try for themselves before they are satisfied with the results, which is totally normal and perfectly fine. I will say however, that obviously I'm not surprised.

For your potential Mini LFE purchase, there is NO WAY you need a 1000D to power those. AT ALL. Do yourself a favor and grab an SMSL or Nobsound amp for half the price and save yourself not only some money but a bucket load of space and noise. If you get the SMSL amps that I had, the 160W 2 channel one, you'll have way more than enough power to fuel a pair of Mini's. I definitely would NOT recommend putting more than 2 on the seat. I had one mounted directly to the seat using that amp and the feeling is very high. 2 would be even more of course, but I could not imagine any need to put more than that, especially if you have other units mounted under the chassis in combination with them.
 
It's unfortunate you found out the hard way but everyone has to try for themselves before they are satisfied with the results, which is totally normal and perfectly fine. I will say however, that obviously I'm not surprised.

For your potential Mini LFE purchase, there is NO WAY you need a 1000D to power those. AT ALL. Do yourself a favor and grab an SMSL or Nobsound amp for half the price and save yourself not only some money but a bucket load of space and noise. If you get the SMSL amps that I had, the 160W 2 channel one, you'll have way more than enough power to fuel a pair of Mini's. I definitely would NOT recommend putting more than 2 on the seat. I had one mounted directly to the seat using that amp and the feeling is very high. 2 would be even more of course, but I could not imagine any need to put more than that, especially if you have other units mounted under the chassis in combination with them.
Agree to more than 2 probably being massive overkill.

Fortunately I can still return all but one exciter, so I think of it as a 25EUR experiment.
 
go figure
Exciters can have useful response above 25Hz or so;
physics determines whether that energy gets transferred to attached objects.
For objects of rigidity and effective mass greater than that of exciter's frame+magnet, less energy gets transferred.
A relatively rigid racing seat represents higher effect mass
than thinner and more flexible sim racing seats. From my Thruster testing,
here is response of a fairly rigid, non-resonant high mass (30mm thick MDF):
strapHeld.png


...while here is thruster energy that failed to transfer into that mass:
thrusterStrapHeld.png


Meanwhile, a DAEX30HESF-4 is relatively good at delivering energy into a brake pedal:


HESFbrake.png

... compared to a Thruster into the same pedal:
BrakePedalModerate.png
 
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That's all well and good, but the real test is can you actually feel them with other, larger units operating within the same vicinity? If we take the last 2 people as an example, the answer is they are simply not worth it. Having one attached to a brake pedal is both very different and not possible compared to other units. So for this instance, if you want a shaking brake pedal, personally I have no interest in it at all, then you really don't have many options.

But for the purpose that has been touted in the so called "must have" kit to be part of the cool kids club, they really are just another box to tick for someone that wants boxes ticked.
 
I do feel the 4 exciters on the back of my seat, but they are "mostly" supportive of the effects by the TST and provide additional fill. I miss them if they are not there. I absolutely feel that a tight harness like I'm using to get maximum effect from my G-Belt makes a difference in what you will feel from the exciters. If your back is not pressing against the seat, you won't get much out of them.

They will not have the impact of the BK or TST, but when leveraged correctly have a useful impact. I think the sticking point is the expectation of what they add. They are supportive with the overall emersion. I'm also filtering out the lower frequencies for the exciters and still am only running them at 2 notches on my amplifier.
 
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I think not being able to feel them and I think they are not worth the hassle are getting a little misconstrued. I did feel them, but not enough to make mucking around with them worthwhile, in my opinion. In some situations they could probably be really good. But my feeling now of going larger units with less quantity, these go completely against it. They are also extremely easy to overdrive since you're trying to get them to come through with the larger units also working at the same time.

At the end of the day they are an option for people to try. But if Tony spend $70 USD on 8 of those units, plus an amp to power them, there is no way I could recommend getting them at all. We're talking BK LFE + TST Silver prices there almost. That price though is way out of whack. Amazon AU have them for $60 AUD, which is still pretty high, but not as high as what he paid for them.
 
  • Deleted member 1449502

I feel a crazy level of vibes from my BKG2 on my back, obviously elevated massively because it's only resting on mesh right against my back. So my hopes for the exciters are that with the el'cheapo rig it should work to my advantage at passing on vibes with such a light mass

I also have 3 x TST429's, 2 x Q10B's, 1 x BKC, so by comparison the BKG2 isn't much stacked against them on paper, but the transfer is unreal as the seat is light weight as they come
 
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Exciters can have useful response above 25Hz or so;
physics determines whether that energy gets transferred to attached objects.
For objects of rigidity and effective mass greater than that of exciter's frame+magnet, less energy gets transferred.
A relatively rigid racing seat represents higher effect mass
than thinner and more flexible sim racing seats. From my Thruster testing,
here is response of a fairly rigid, non-resonant high mass (30mm thick MDF):
strapHeld.png


...while here is thruster energy that failed to transfer into that mass:
thrusterStrapHeld.png


Meanwhile, a DAEX30HESF-4 is relatively good at delivering energy into a brake pedal:


HESFbrake.png

... compared to a Thruster into the same pedal:
BrakePedalModerate.png
My "go figure" statement was about me losing the big picture a bit getting so much into tactile and not really weighing of the bang-for-the-buck factor anymore, so the quote is a little bit misleading given the topic of your post.

Besides that I totally agree to the physics you are describing and that other people's mileage may vary, but as I am using a fairly common Sparco EVO seat and would not recommend any of my friends to cash out 500 bucks for that HW, I think it could be valuable info to the community.

The Mini LFE seems also not to be made exactly for that job, but I would rather drive those at 30% to get what I want, than to buy 8 exciters and drive them at 100% leaving me underwhelmed with possible damage to the units along the way.
 
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I feel a crazy level of vibes from my BKG2 on my back, obviously elevated massively because it's only resting on mesh right against my back. So my hopes for the exciters are that with the el'cheapo rig it should work to my advantage at passing on vibes with such a light mass

I also have 3 x TST429's, 2 x Q10B's, 1 x BKC, so by comparison the BKG2 isn't much stacked against them on paper, but the transfer is unreal as the seat is light weight as they come
I have owned BK Gamers before and those were able to shake my whole rig with the right amount of power. No comparison to what an exciter can do.
 
  • Deleted member 1449502

I have owned BK Gamers before and those were able to shake my whole rig with the right amount of power. No comparison to what an exciter can do.
Obviously, I was only talking of the transfer being felt on the lighter seat being very significant. I intially had another BKG2 when I first got into tactile and nothing compared to the direct contact through the mesh, I found them rather limited when placed anywhere else on the rig
 
  • Deleted member 197115

It's unfortunate you found out the hard way but everyone has to try for themselves before they are satisfied with the results, which is totally normal and perfectly fine. I will say however, that obviously I'm not surprised.

For your potential Mini LFE purchase, there is NO WAY you need a 1000D to power those. AT ALL. Do yourself a favor and grab an SMSL or Nobsound amp for half the price and save yourself not only some money but a bucket load of space and noise. If you get the SMSL amps that I had, the 160W 2 channel one, you'll have way more than enough power to fuel a pair of Mini's. I definitely would NOT recommend putting more than 2 on the seat. I had one mounted directly to the seat using that amp and the feeling is very high. 2 would be even more of course, but I could not imagine any need to put more than that, especially if you have other units mounted under the chassis in combination with them.
SMSL will struggle to drive Mini-LFEs at full power, it just start clipping making them clank.
Not a problem if you not planning on maxing them out. It's a wonderful amp, compact and very well built.
 
I have not seen anyone


In Good Hands
A fair bit of research has been done on effects creation on how we best apply the BK/TST and multiple exciters. The concept has been well proven to work when used properly. We still have a lot of things to do in effects creation and ideas on how to build much better effects to test with our own team of enthusiasts.

Do not be discouraged with what you may read by tactile noobs and some who have an attitude against the approach I promote or what can only be seen as being on a personal mission to tarnish my own efforts or credibility.

In three or six months, you can compare what others come up with in effects or their own approaches/recommendations to what we seek to achieve on the RB discord.

Skills?
Some may want to copy the early groundwork and ideas of others and a popular format, yet appear to have no clue or vision of how to best implement it within effects. You can buy into the best tactile hardware, but without good effects and calibration, it can be rather disappointing or unenjoyable. To some extent regards effects, tactile is an art, and like any form of art, you have to develop your experience or understanding in that to then be able to express your own creativity.

Achieving this, is also an art, and knowing what the effects generate and determining their operations are key factors to understanding how to develop that art. We do not (fluke) the highest quality in tactile, it comes from testing, research and user feedback.

Suitable Installation & Intended Purposes
We can apply the exciters in multiple ways, to suit certain effects scenarios or felt sensations. Unlike a smaller BK, which is very limited in its best output range (20-50Hz). Using those will tie the user into using repeat frequencies for multiple effects as people get into the habbit of using the better feeling frequencies over and over and over. Then the more effects you try to use the more the whole thing becomes a jumbled mess rather than variations of effects with their own sensations.

Additionally, a BK laying horizontally then has friction within its piston and can generate potentially different felt sensations. This may or not bring its own issues when combined with other (piston based) transducer units or how they may use different crossover points

(I am not an expert on harmonic distortion or phase issues regard vibrations and different materials).

Buttkicker certainly for best performance recommends vertical installations and that is why I personally stick to that.

Better Hardware Matching
What the newbies, do not appear to realise is that if they wanted to copy the idea/format and replace exciters. Then they should place dual TST at the sides of the seat and one central unit at the spine/shoulders. That will enable the benefits of a wider frequency range to be used and better blend with large BK.

The smaller BK does not make a great job of being a unit to blend best with others, as their output while punchy is rather restricted. So how we can utilise it to bring wider variations in effects felt sensations, is just not possible. Can it fill a seat with more tactile err yes, of course but these people, appear to totally miss the point of seeking to be able to achieve the (full dynamic bass range) over the complete seat or even why that matters.

Does Experience Count?
I tested seats with multiple TST with BK units, as far back as 2006 and that can also work very well. However, from an appearance aspect, it is not acceptable to some and can look a bit weird with how those jut out from the seat.

Low bass energy because it has much more bandwidth and with such units like the BK models, this energy will fill the whole seat with ease. It can feel more natural to have lower frequencies within the buttocks/thighs/lower back. Then higher frequencies in mid to upper back. The low bass energy will feel stronger at the point of installation than it will in the shoulders.

Dual large BK should fill the seat better with richer bass, it is also better to do this than try to run a single unit at its operational limits. However, trying to achieve stereo with dual BK does not really work that well as the low bass energy flows over the whole seat and becomes omnidirectional.

Failed Solutions?
On the whole, the vast majority of people's 4Way or CM-based installations seeking to deliver positional or stereo effects in both pedals and seat do a rather poor job of it. This is also why I decided when seeking to help others to abandon stereo based installations in favour of using multiple transducers more for improved performance and roles than for directional vibrational immersion.

Effects Interfering
With more than one large BK unit, this gives you the ability to separate certain effects like speed/rpm that can feel weird if we try to have them both on the same transducer. Yet it also gives you the ability to extend certain effects layers in scenarios you want max output over both units rather than one. So additional units helps with applying more types of effects but also to have them combine when sought after in certain effects responses.

Why Exciters?
Unlike the large BK, the exciters can bring nicer positional stereo feedback.
As often pointed out on the forums here, the exciters give us the ability to transfer "specific sensations" directly to "specific body regions". They also let us apply a much wider frequency range at these locations to give us more scope in how/what effects layers we can utilize them for.

Real cars, and real vibrations, use the full dynamic bass range and will have resonating harmonics. If we seek to develop effects that can best replicate that as a scenario then we should use appropriate hardware capable of producing it. This is why the hardware selected has after all been selected.

Scenarios In Using Exciters Correctly:
  • Directional Stereo Enhancement
  • Extending Certain Effects Layers
  • Reducing Workload On Other Units
  • Adding Additional Effects To The Mix
  • Fill A Seat Better With My "Multilayer Effects" Approach

It seems that a few people, the tactile noobs, as you call them have tried your approach from beginning to end, the right amps, the right dsp's the BK/TST/exciter and yet the have done it wrong or they are just on a mission to tarnish your reputation as you put it. I doubt anyone is investing this much in this without the hope of improving their tactile. It's very doubtful anyone is investing this much of money to say you are right or wrong.

I think the issue with the exciters is expectation. Setting expectation and managing expectation. It's not anyones place here to do that though, we just report back what we each feel our upgrade has done for us.

I am one of those persons who can spend a lot of money on something and then hit a brick wall of where do I go next? Which upgrade takes me closer to the holy grail. At some point you end up spending 30% of what you have already spent to achieve only 5% improvement on top. At the same time it is worth it because it was the only thing left to keep the momentum going with the goal of improving things.

I think for some reading and following they didnt have the true picture of what the exciters would bring to the table, certainly in relation to their cost and what was brought to the table with the costs of the other equipment.

You can call us all noobs and that we dont get the concept or what it's trying to do but we are going to be just like many other people that end up looking at it as a value proposition. Not someone that has 8 LFE's on their personal rig and will do whatever it takes to improve even the slightest amount.

I dont know if you have ever bolted mini's directly to your seat so its hard to know if you come from a place of experience here. They perform well, whatever their orientation when used on the seat. They output a lot more and while you have stated that they are only good 30-50 you are completely wrong about their working range on the seat. They work absolutly fine in the range that heliguy posted for his exciter settings and I bet they put out more on every frequency.

For those that want more, they seem like a good alternative if not what you went for.

I wont encourage anyone to run out and get 4 mini's and put them on their seat. Yes they do round things out, they do make you feel like the seat is more alive but other than some effects if you may like a lot of slip etc then they are not going to bring what the lfe/tst brought. They are the workhorse and the minis play a smaller role. Its a lot of money so it should be pointed out.

Your mindset is different and it doesn't take the considerations in to account that most people do, so a lot of people will be disappointed.

The other thing I will be doing today is racing, as I do every day. Good luck with that some day too. You should try it to help bring perspective as to why we are all here.
 
Well based on Alvaro de la Orden it should be very easy. At least the way he mounted these on his seat.

The way I cleaned the surface of the seat, applied them etc.....it does not seem that this will be very easy. The 3M seems to be a pretty good quality.

As Benzahh correctly wrote using some heat always help removing stickers etc....

AFAIK cnhoff also wanted to experiment with these during these days....
Let's see what his results are.....
Mmmm don´t know how exactly you infer that from my input on this thread lol
In fact I have run into some issues moving an existing exciter to reallocate it, and one of my units sadly passed away during the process.
 
Glad to finally see some real normal world opinions for the average sim racer not getting shouted down on this thread.
After trying quite hard to get some advice I decided on 2 exciters on my pedal plate, 2 mini lfes on my seat bottom and 2 exciters on my seat back, with the smsl and nobsound amp.
I wasn’t willing to spend thousands on large amps and bigger shakers, but happy I went my route and got a decent feeling out of them.
Good tactile can be had for a fraction of the price that has previously been pushed upon people.
 
  • Deleted member 1451080

Deleted
 
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  • Deleted member 1449502

There are a few factors that could lead to have a better experience with more available hardware.

1. What effects do you intend to run? What is important to you? Immersion, feedback cues?
2. Are your chosen effects clashing with each other? If the effects mapped to one shaker are too busy and indistinguisable, then: can the chosen effects be crafted better to work with eachother
3. Or further to the last point will you benefit from having more shakers to keep it clear what is going on

IMO this is how I see it, most people will be content with Level 1, and honestly with the right effects/ mix balancing and isolation is already incredible. Level 2 is the sweet spot imo, Level 3 is YOLO territory

Level 1 (1 x LFE/BKC/Q10B - 1 x TST)
Gear shift
Wheelslip (mono)
RPM

Level 2 (2x LFE/BKC/Q10B - 2 x TST)
Gear shift
Wheelslip (front/rear)
RPM
Suspension bumps (front/rear)

Level 3 (3x LFE/BKC/Q10B - 3 x TST - Exciters??? or BK minis)
Gear shift
Wheelslip (front/rear)
RPM
Suspension bumps (front/rear)
G-Forces
Speed
 
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  • Deleted member 1449502

Ok just posted V3 of the WRX RPM series.

From now on I'll post these in the AC misc mods section and provide any updates within that. I think anything posted within this monster thread is easily lost and forgotten so please follow me to be notified when I've uploaded a new effect or made any changes to existing uploads. Please let me know if I'm missing anything in the instructions presented in the description of the mod.

If anyone here has AC and wants to try the WRX i have tweaked with the effect hit me up.

Over the next week I'll start uploading other effects (gear shift, wheelslip, suspension, speed, g-load) all basically reposts of what can be found on this thread, but I think will save people time and avoid added confusion sifting through here. There we can keep them organised in the mods section with clear instructions, and ofcourse the ability to ask questions re the specific mods feedback and review section

Link is here
 
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