Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[RCHeliguy]

If you can show me the curves you are using, I can replicate them. That part I'm very comfortable with. Maybe that would be some kind of benefit, if I gave you those configurations matching the curves you are using in the DSPs to allow more people access. Many already have an investment in their amplifiers they won't want to walk away from.

Otherwise I'm trying to do the best I can within the constraints of my rig and other priorities.

I understand your thoughts on this. My intent is not to frustrate you. Hopefully I can still provide some useful data points despite my constraints.

I'm very encouraged, by what I've felt so far and I'm looking forward to seeing how far I can go with this.

I hope we can find enough common ground to continue, because until I have more space to make major changes to my rig, I'm stuck with a compromise.

Eventually when I have room I'll have a dedicated flight rig separate from my driving rig and won't have space constraints, so the NLRv3 will go too. So eventually I'll be able to take this all the way. To what ever stage you reach with your efforts. Technically at that point I'll have separate tactile systems too. One completely dedicated to flight which is whole different thing to explore.

I'll be setting up DCS tactile with a focus on the Apache helicopter when it is soon released. I'm pretty excited to see what I can do with that.

BTW I'm also in a group of people whole build all kinds of scale cockpits for flight. Most have no motion. Tactile well done would be a boon to that group.

 

[metalnwood]

@Mr Latte by the time you release it all I may have been in a position to get the hardware but I do have a question about the product.

I know from your other profile that it was made for ACC and I have seen you suggest it may not be ideal or even really work in other sims that people have used it for.

So are you looking at profiles that are tailored for other sims? Obviously ACC is popular, along with iracing where lots of people spend a lot of money. Are you looking to provide out of the box profiles that will work with a general section of iracing cars?

 

[RCHeliguy]

, along with iracing where lots of people spend a lot of money.

iRacing is where the VAST majority of the whales I know of are

 

[Deleted member 1449502]

I found that the overall feedback was getting muddied when I used any RPM profile so tended to either have the volume levels very low of even off altogether.

The main culprit for me was the idle effect in any of the RPM sets. I spent far too much time trying to get a nice, full range effect that felt fantastic when sitting stationary and revving the engine, only to find that it overlapped all the other effects once out on track and moving. This is probably due to me not having enough units (2 Concerts + 4 exciters) and too many effect sets.

Not sure if anyone else has tried this but once you are out on track, toggle only the idle effect on and off and see if it makes many of the other effects feel clearer.

Could you please post a photo of where you have your 2 x BKC's and exciters. Also let me know which exciters so I can help you best utilise them, I'll try and make it work for you.

Idle effects volume balance should be subtle imo, definately not clouding the mix whilst driving. You would undeniably have a better experience with an added TST but I think we should be able to work with what you have to get something that feels satisfying

 

[Deleted member 1449502]

I’ll give this a crack, definitely. I’m finally going to start with effects tuning after mounting the new units so I’ll put this to the front of the list. A pack of engine effects for all the GT3 cars would be interesting. There is enough variety there to test if it’s worthwhile having multiple effects for cars. I’ve always just ran one profile and when I had motion I only had 2. One for open wheel cars and one for everything else.

Looking forward to it. You currently have a BKC and TST239 right? Did you also get your replacement amp?

 

[Mr Latte]

If you can show me the curves you are using, I can replicate them. That part I'm very comfortable with. Maybe that would be some kind of benefit, if I gave you those configurations matching the curves you are using in the DSPs to allow more people access. Many already have an investment in their amplifiers they won't want to walk away from.

Otherwise I'm trying to do the best I can within the constraints of my rig and other priorities.

I understand your thoughts on this. My intent is not to frustrate you. Hopefully I can still provide some useful data points despite my constraints.

I'm very encouraged, by what I've felt so far and I'm looking forward to seeing how far I can go with this.

I hope we can find enough common ground to continue, because until I have more space to make major changes to my rig, I'm stuck with a compromise.

Eventually when I have room I'll have a dedicated flight rig separate from my driving rig and won't have space constraints, so the NLRv3 will go too. So eventually I'll be able to take this all the way. To what ever stage you reach with your efforts. Technically at that point I'll have separate tactile systems too. One completely dedicated to flight which is whole different thing to explore.

I'll be setting up DCS tactile with a focus on the Apache helicopter when it is soon released. I'm pretty excited to see what I can do with that.

BTW I'm also in a group of people whole build all kinds of scale cockpits for flight. Most have no motion. Tactile well done would be a boon to that group.

The amps allow users to apply scientific audio filters that are commonly used in the audio industry. I’m not sure you can get the same response with this approach you want to take as you have not confirmed such filters are possible on this approach. To even determine how well the approach you want to do works would then need comparisons done, and before that, you first need to confirm no other issues are at play with multi channels Simhub and recording outputs to ensure no crosstalk or blips from the virtual routing
is happening. As yet who has went that far to test and demonstrate.?

As I have said the vast majority of people that follow will buy the recommended dsp amps, so the position you put yourself in and needing an alternative solution is not going to be followed by that many people and it goes against the whole principle that we are trying to reduce the differences between users rigs.

Go the recommended path or go your own the choice is yours.
Ask yourself what so far from advice you have been given has not been good or worked well?

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte by the time you release it all I may have been in a position to get the hardware but I do have a question about the product.

I know from your other profile that it was made for ACC and I have seen you suggest it may not be ideal or even really work in other sims that people have used it for.

So are you looking at profiles that are tailored for other sims? Obviously ACC is popular, along with iracing where lots of people spend a lot of money. Are you looking to provide out of the box profiles that will work with a general section of iracing cars?

Yes, general profile that works okay on most sims but then also specific car and sim profiles. Also offering people access to a club/membership that covers guides/tutorials on how to better make and share profiles with others. Possible a way members can vote on what profiles I then also work on as well. I also want to do libraries, so for say a specific effect (road vibrations) a user can pick from 5 variants that feel operate a bit different to build their own profiles.

Ideally to offer something that currently does not exist and make tactile much more accessible and enjoyable to a high standard.

 

[Deleted member 1449502]

Yes, general profile that works okay on most sims but then also specific car and sim profiles. Also offering people access to a club/membership that covers guides/tutorials on how to better make and share profiles with others. Possible a way members can vote on what profiles I then also work on as well. I also want to do libraries, so for say a specific effect (road vibrations) a user can pick from 5 variants that feel operate a bit different to build their own profiles.

Ideally to offer something that currently does not exist and make tactile much more accessible and enjoyable to a high standard.

Really looking forward to this!

 

[RCHeliguy]

@Mr Latte Can you see that you've given me some mixed signals this week?

"I was teasing on the amp." On Monday you said you were teasing about my getting a DSP amplifier.

Then in the conversation that came from this, you mentioned that there was a lack of documentation whenever you looked at Equalizer APO. When I said that I was going to figure out the Equalizer APO software, and create an instructional video you said.

"Well I think people on the forums might appreciate that. excellent that you are up for it."

You mentioned potential issues with multiple cards or soundcard compatibility issues and then wished me

"Good Luck!"

I found out that there are no sound card compatibility issues and that it does support multiple cards and then I created the YouTube Video that I committed to when I said "Challenge accepted."

"Also, can you illustrate what types of filters are possible and what slopes for those filters can be set? " I demonstrated in a video how to set the slopes for the filters by adjusting Q values including stacking low or high pass filters.

You said, "Having to manually set curves sounds like a bit more work." So I offered to map any filtering and processing for the transducers you are recommending and share those files so they would be easy for people to use and spare them from this work.

I've only done what I set out to do and that you seemingly encouraged me to do. I saw a challenge and accepted it. I feel like I have done everything in good faith.

 

[worms14]

I would like to ask for your opinions on what I want to do to complete my project.
Namely, in order to improve the sensations, following the example of what has already been written here many times, I would like to enrich the armchair with one more body shaker.
The idea was: to separate the two BST-1s that I have mounted under the pedal platform and to mount one of them on the Bimarco seat, screw it directly to it, just like I did with the LFE. In the photo it is item V1.

Instead of BST-1, install additional LFE in pedals.
In this state, I believe that I would bring the project to its end.

Layer profiles that improve immersion would probably take on a different dimension.

I know that the TST units recommended here are probably much better, but for me it is much too much of an expense.

I sincerely hope that the plan I want to implement will improve my experience a bit.

In addition to the greater immersion, I have a belt tensioner which I made from the Wather project.
Plus an additional Daytona Puck T25 on the brake and accelerator pedal.

And all in conjunction with Vr Pimax 5K +, it can take me to a completely different world.

Please let me know if the installation of V1 on the seat will be ok?

The v2 position for the BST-1 is just an assumption that I hope not to use, I would prefer to mount it in the V1 position, I think it will provide a better impression.

 

[metalnwood]

@worms14 if it were me, and I wanted to mount those three to my seat I would mount the 2 bsts directly to my seat underneath in L/R configuration. I think their power is good for that. The LFE I think you should mount on to something that spans the rails. I think that unit it too powerful and the results far to localised based on my smaller unit. It will feel like someone ramming something right up your arse there with some effects.

 

[worms14]

At the moment I have installed:
Seat, LFE and Realteus mat want to add BST-1
platform for 2 x BST-1 pedals, I want to put one BST on the chair and put the LFE in its place
The accelerator pedal and the Daytona Puck brake pedal remain the same.
I have the impression that we did not understand what my plan was.

 

[metalnwood]

Thanks Worms, yes I did misunderstand.

I have one exactly where you have the V1. On the lower back. I think its a good place. I hve two underneath, one on the lower back where you have V1 and I had one higher as well. I think the higher one didnt feel like it worked well. It was out of place.

The lower one seems to work well for me though.

 

[anton_Chez]

@RCHeliguy You have mate. The great thing about these forums is that there are multiple people sharing various solutions to problems. There’s no hard and fast way of doing anything. There’s normally an optimal way but there’s no way every person is going to be able to implement that. For those that are in your predicament, your contribution is very valuable. They’ll be able to benefit from your passion and enthusiasm to solve your own problems and make the best use of your equipment. They would be zero innovation and ingenuity of every problem is life was able to be solved by “just go out and buy the absolutely perfect system”. Be it a car, a home renovation, even problem solving on the job, very rarely are you in a position to just “do it the BEST way “.

Don’t be discouraged. The work I’ve done in several tech and sim racing areas has always been the the love of it and I’ve always enjoyed sharing my progress, for free, along the way so that others are encouraged to try it out for themselves. Ignore the gate keeping. If the information is not available through the sheer enjoyment sharing for the benefit of others, you’ll never get it by reasoning or worse, begging.

Plenty of us will have alternative experiences that we can all learn from and share. It’s not solely reliant on a single person to achieve a satisfactory tactile platform.

 

[anton_Chez]

Looking forward to it. You currently have a BKC and TST239 right? Did you also get your replacement amp?

Yeah I have both under the seat. The amp is on hold since lockdown dictates when and where I can live my life. So I’ve bought another one as soon as I heard they were going low on supply and knew that it would be at least a month before mine even got looked at. It’s ready to be returned when I can get down there to drop it off but I’ll be selling that one if it’s replaced/repaired.

 

[mgh24]

@Mr Latte Can you see that you've given me some mixed signals this week?

"I was teasing on the amp." On Monday you said you were teasing about my getting a DSP amplifier.

Then in the conversation that came from this, you mentioned that there was a lack of documentation whenever you looked at Equalizer APO. When I said that I was going to figure out the Equalizer APO software, and create an instructional video you said.

"Well I think people on the forums might appreciate that. excellent that you are up for it."

You mentioned potential issues with multiple cards or soundcard compatibility issues and then wished me

"Good Luck!"

I found out that there are no sound card compatibility issues and that it does support multiple cards and then I created the YouTube Video that I committed to when I said "Challenge accepted."

"Also, can you illustrate what types of filters are possible and what slopes for those filters can be set? " I demonstrated in a video how to set the slopes for the filters by adjusting Q values including Couldstacking low or high pass filters.

You said, "Having to manually set curves sounds like a bit more work." So I offered to map any filtering and processing for the transducers you are recommending and share those files so they would be easy for people to use and spare them from this work.

I've only done what I set out to do and that you seemingly encouraged me to do. I saw a challenge and accepted it. I feel like I have done everything in good faith.

I would love to see the video you made! Could you post a link? Thanks

 

[mgh24]

...BTW I'm also in a group of people whole build all kinds of scale cockpits for flight. Most have no motion. Tactile well done would be a boon to that group.

My biggest regret it not thinking ahead on how I could incorporate flying controls on my racing sim. I was late getting into sim racing, and still have not got into flying. Maybe I could put wheels on my racing rig and roll it out of the way, but that would mean disconnecting all controllers every time I wanted to switch At any rate, scale flying cockpits sound very cool!

 

[RCHeliguy]

I would love to see the video you made! Could you post a link? Thanks

I won't post it here, but there is an equalizer apo thread where I posted it as well as my build thread.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte Can you see that you've given me some mixed signals this week?

"I was teasing on the amp." On Monday you said you were teasing about my getting a DSP amplifier.

Then in the conversation that came from this, you mentioned that there was a lack of documentation whenever you looked at Equalizer APO. When I said that I was going to figure out the Equalizer APO software, and create an instructional video you said.

"Well I think people on the forums might appreciate that. excellent that you are up for it."

You mentioned potential issues with multiple cards or soundcard compatibility issues and then wished me

"Good Luck!"

I found out that there are no sound card compatibility issues and that it does support multiple cards and then I created the YouTube Video that I committed to when I said "Challenge accepted."

"Also, can you illustrate what types of filters are possible and what slopes for those filters can be set? " I demonstrated in a video how to set the slopes for the filters by adjusting Q values including stacking low or high pass filters.

You said, "Having to manually set curves sounds like a bit more work." So I offered to map any filtering and processing for the transducers you are recommending and share those files so they would be easy for people to use and spare them from this work.

I've only done what I set out to do and that you seemingly encouraged me to do. I saw a challenge and accepted it. I feel like I have done everything in good faith.

Not trying to give you mixed signals.

Sorry, I am not subbed to your own thread and have not seen your video.

Not to sound rude, but personally, I am not that interested as, well I don't need it and I think the number of people that will use it is limited. Yet possibly, yes a small group of people may appreciate it and a more in-depth look at it.

My point was, every so often it came up but nobody bothered to really look into it and show others how to get it up and running. To then test with a combined group of people that indeed yes it worked as required, with no issues like lag, distortion, crosstalk etc and a good idea would be to have tests done to record the soundcards outputs to confirm this.

It's fair to have doubts as in over two years, I simply have not seen examples or reports from multiple users enjoying what it offers. Nor anyone sharing settings for specific hardware that they found performed well, why?

I think it deserves its own thread and for people interested to then follow it and help or contribute to make it a solution at least for some. Somewhere that people following your lead can then chat/discuss things about it with you.

Crossover Filtering & EQ Filtering / Differences
I raised the point of filters with the software solution you are seeking to use because hardware solutions typically offer well-acclaimed filters for crossover usage and not just EQ filtering. Some units will offer more control of the slope in the filter per octave than others. Pro audio software solutions used on a DAW will offer even more and the best but they too rely on these industry-used types of filters.

With the DSP amps, we do not try to create a crossover curve with multiple PEQ joined and various dB and Q factors applied. I have seen some try to do this even on the Behringer amps. You are trying to create a crossover curve with EQ filters. I can't tell you what all the real differences or reasons are and why various crossover filters used in the industry. Very likely to enable people to form standardization of frequency control for values used and for specific usage cases?

I believe the crossover filter controls how the device will operate, then applying EQ only to tweak specific frequencies within that controlled curve of the crossover used. The EQ alters the source input in how frequencies are handled it is not necessarily giving the same control of the hardware it is being used with. So I do not believe you can achieve the same results with only EQ filtering via the software solution you want to use.

Much info here on the forums on the Exciters, the large BK, the TST and using a multilayer approach with these. How this selected hardware will perform really well.

Yet if multiple people bought that, installed it how/where they wanted and used a mix of no DSP, software DSP or the Behringer DSP. Giving them the freedom to choose, then you lose the "fixed platform" and results will not be the same, shared effects and profiles will not be experienced as intended.

It seems important to highlight again, to look at the bigger picture with this.
It is to get away from the problems tactile has with a solution people can use, knowing it's tried tested and has the best effects developed to work on that, so others one day can enjoy it.

So no, while I am happy if you want to pursue your own interests with your own rig regards the software DSP I am not trying to work with you on some joint effort to get this like the recommended solution if that is or isn't possible. You are welcome to do your own testing/research if you think it's a viable option and worth pursuing, to me, it's just adding to the confusion and complicates things.

 

[metalnwood]

Now tell me gentlemen?
Is it possible to open people's eyes to encourage people to buy into a new tactile hardware concept? That with customers of that concept, you create a community that specialises on tactile. Within that community offer guides, videos, info on how to install/configure different effects or help to build your own effects. To encourage other talented people to contribute. To have a vision in building a library of high-quality profiles developed for specific sims, cars that just works as intended for that hardware concept.

Every tactile solution on the market, that is sold today, show me one of those companies that have built specialised effects for different sims to suit their own sold hardware and customers? Do you see, my vision for this is to break the mold and move things forward.

Yes high-quality hardware costs more than budget hardware, if it's not for you fine but looking at the money people already spend on other sim or PC hardware then clearly there is a market for people who do want and will pay for much improved tactile immersion.

I responded to this and never did get any reply to my questions about this community, I just got walls of text sidestepping this.. It sounds great, a community for the community but you guys are going to be the community. He is going to be selling a product, if you want it then wait.

The community is the one that works for all of us.