Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

Hello, I'm new to tactile and have a question with which I hope this experienced community can help. To setup my tactile configuration (only seat for now, no pedals yet). I have ordered a BKE LF, a TST 209 (the only TST available in my country, unfortunately) and 4x Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4. I also have ordered a NX3000D to control the BKE and the TST. I see in the builds in this thread that usually an EPQ304 + the T.tracks DSP 4x4 mini is used to control the 4 exciters. Given that the EPQ304 seems to suffer from some fan noise, I was wondering whether replacing the EPQ304 + the T.tracks DSP 4x4 mini with a single the T.tracks DSP 4x4 Mini Amp (4x60W @4ohm) has any disadvantages, @Mr Latte (or others who'd like to chime in)? Thanks for any insight you may have!

I do know one person that bought the amp/dsp variant for the t.racks.
However it has no volume dials so you have to go into the software to then reduce gain for different channels which for some is maybe a bit of a pain. Also many of the customers I help are buying 19" racks to put their gear in and the EPQ304 looks nice, with two NXD amps from images I have seen. EPQ304 is also quite well built but yes the fans are better swapped out. We may only use the amps with very little wattage, the exciters are best when not being constantly hammered.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I do know one person that bought the amp/dsp variant for the t.racks.
However it has no volume dials so you have to go into the software to then reduce gain for different channels which for some is maybe a bit of a pain. Also many of the customers I help are buying 19" racks to put their gear in and the EPQ304 looks nice, with two NXD amps from images I have seen. EPQ304 is also quite well built but yes the fans are better swapped out. We may only use the amps with very little wattage, the exciters are best when not being constantly hammered.

I have little doubt it would be easy to burn the exciters up. This makes me wonder if I'm better off just doubling them up with 8 total, but working in pairs, obviously with a more powerful amp. Not sure about the best layout if I do that. Are they better paired up front to back symmetrically or in quadrants on the seat.

Left Side x 2
Right Side x 2
Left Back x 2
Right Back x 2
or
Front side L+R,
Back side L + R
Lower back L + R
Mid back L + R

FWIW, I think the Q10B's flexible mount points are excellent and they would make the modifications I was considering for my front plate much easier as I could just bolt them to the top mounts through bolted sideways to a pair of arms using them as part of the structure. They would be out of the way very nicely.

 

[Mr Latte]

I have little doubt it would be easy to burn the exciters up. This makes me wonder if I'm better off just doubling them up with 8 total, but working in pairs, obviously with a more powerful amp. Not sure about the best layout if I do that. Are they better paired up front to back symmetrically or in quadrants on the seat.

Left Side x 2
Right Side x 2
Left Back x 2
Right Back x 2
or
Front side L+R,
Back side L + R
Lower back L + R
Mid back L + R

FWIW, I think the Q10B's flexible mount points are excellent and they would make the modifications I was considering for my front plate much easier as I could just bolt them to the top mounts through bolted sideways to a pair of arms using them as part of the structure. They would be out of the way very nicely.

Think you are then overcomplicating things, as keep in mind with more channels this then also gives you more mapping of effects to manage. It would be wiser to try the recommended approach to see first what your thoughts are.

I can see 6 units in the back being a nice number for additional channels but not everyone will want that many. Although I see the possible potential to introduce "game audio-tactile" for two exciters to be combined with telemetry tactile for those who like to tinker. Still something Im not yet done with and believe is possible to incorporate both.

 

[RCHeliguy]

So start with 4 exciters and go from there?

I'm curious if people have moved their exciters after sticking them to a seat. How would you pull them off and what kind of adhesive would you use to reapply them?

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Heel plate exciter worth it?

As I had a channel available on my amp and an BST-2 lying around I did some tinkering with "exciting" my heel plate.

I used some 12mm wood composit board ( Siebdruckplatte in German) in the first iteration only isolated from the DIY aluminium rig by double 6mm rubber strips.

The felt vibration was underwhelming and a buzzing noise disturbed me.
The thought was then that the vibrations were "escaping" into the aluminium frame.
Dialling it up was not an option as I have a "pesky neighbour"

Then I took some pains to isolate the heel plate from the aluminium with stacked up rubber isolators which are quite soft, i can easyly bend them by hand.
Though the heel plate moves around when moving my feet the feeling is still not very satiesfiing. The board is vibrating quite strongly, it just doesnt´t add that much to the driving experience.


For explanation:

I use an AST-2B4 basshaker directly under my seat cushion for road information and gear shift, a Dayton Puck in the backrest for gearshift and rpms and two DAEX32EP-4 on brake and throttle pedal for wheel lock/slip.
The pedal exciters are the most usefull for driving, rpms are used as a "shiftbuzzer" instead of shift lights.
The road impact/vibration ( at least in Asseto Corsa) add a little to the immersion but don´t help immensely with the driving/positioning of the car.
(Disclosure: wheelbase is SC2. So this relays more and better info than the basshakers)

Had I known up front I wouldn´t have bothered with the shaker under the heelplate, it adds little to the experience.
It might be worth your while if your still on a belt drive wheel base or want the most out of your equipment since the whole basshaker update was way cheaper that the upgrade to a DD wheel. ( all around cost about 350€ with a used 5.1 amp for power.)

MFG Carsten

Finally found time and will to relocate AuraSound Pros from heel plate to under the seat next to BK Mini LFEs.
Same experience, it adds much more to immersion there than under pedals.

 

[Mr Latte]

Finally found time and will to relocate AuraSound Pros from heel plate to under the seat next to BK Mini LFEs.
Same experience, it adds much more to immersion there than under pedals.

TIP FOR YOU GUYS:
Trying to use exciters on their own, comes with expected limitations.

Combine them with a BK, and the larger the better.
Use the lower bass of the BK to deliver the primary energy into the pedal plate section and use the exciters for additional harmonic detailing entering via the pedal stems/plates.

This way you will get much more convincing results with the potential if using the larger BK to apply effects into pedals using the full 200Hz bass range.

 

[HoiHman]

Today i added 4 exciters to the GS-5 mainly for engine RPM.

I was pleasantly surprised with the performance these small transducers offer.

Of course there was a reason why the holes in the panels were pre-cut by SimXperience. It's an ideal situation because the GS-5 panels can move quite freely and thus are easily shaken by the small Dayton pucks.

Right now the 4 small exciters easily outperform the buttkicker advance at the back of the seat. Still need to tune the stuff though.

Will still use the Advance for shift effect, since it give a much better (low end) kick.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Very impatiently waiting for my new TST429 to arrive.... any time now!

I may have room to put a couple MQB-1's on either side of the TST429 and given their 8ohm impedance, I could run them in parallel for 4ohm total which should put about 750W on tap from my NX4-6000. With their 1.5" of excursion at 22Hz, I guess the question is whether a pair of them would give me enough additional bottom end kick coupled with the TST429. I still prefer the idea of directly mounting transducers to the bottom of my foot plate over a more complex design.

Then I would add another 8pole Neutrik receiver above the existing receiver on the lower right for the 4 x exciters.

@HoiHman, Nice how your actuator plates were already configured to accept transducers! I'm sure that adds a LOT!

 

[EsxPaul]

I'm curious if people have moved their exciters after sticking them to a seat. How would you pull them off and what kind of adhesive would you use to reapply them?

I had to remove one and move it slightly (OCD ) and the pre applied 3M tape sticks like sh*t to a bucket seat. I had to gently prise it up with a scalple like flat blade and managed to leave some small scratches on the seat so be very careful if you ever attempt it. With hindsight, I think I should have tried to apply some gentle heat to ease the process. The adhesive was still good to reuse but that might be due to me moving it straight after the initial application.

As for replacement 3M, I believe it is 3M VHB GPH110GF which you can most likely cross reference and find pretty easily in the USA. Some were using 3M SJ4570 Dual Lock to make their relocation tests simpler but I'm not sure if a 2 piece adhesive would dull the transmission into the seat surface.

 

[Mr Latte]

As the GS4 and GS5 both had the pre-drilled holes and mounts for the "Dayton Puc" or its additional installation rings.
These

Can you 3d Printer specialists not form a solution that lets the smaller exciters fit into a plastic-type shallow cup to help lower it into the pre-drilled hole (intended for the larger puc model) and then mount this printed accessory via those drilled holes in the seat panels?

 

[HoiHman]

As the GS4 and GS5 both had the pre-drilled holes and mounts for the "Dayton Puc" or its additional installation rings.
These

Can you 3d Printer specialists not form a solution that lets the smaller exciters fit into a plastic-type shallow cup to help lower it into the pre-drilled hole (intended for the larger puc model) and then mount this printed accessory via those drilled holes in the seat panels?

Probably Yes, but i see not reason to it.

The Dayton puck performs really wel and there's no reason to replace it with other smaller alternatives. I tried adding Dayton pucks to the GS-4 back in the days and that did not turn out like i wanted.

Installing them on the GS-5 was a breeze.

To be honest i can slap my self having missed this for over 2 years. It's a minimal investment with maximal performance.

However i did have to make one sacrifice to make this happen. The channel that drives the pucks was the channel that normally powers the mini LFE at the shifter. That's the downside of having a mobile rig.

Currently i'm still limited by the 13 pole trailer connector. With 4 poles need for the wind sim, there's only room for 4 channels, nothing more.

 

[Mr Latte]

Probably Yes, but i see not reason to it.

The Dayton puck performs really wel and there's no reason to replace it with other smaller alternatives. I tried adding Dayton pucks to the GS-4 back in the days and that did not turn out like i wanted.

Installing them on the GS-5 was a breeze.

To be honest i can slap my self having missed this for over 2 years. It's a minimal investment with maximal performance.

However i did have to make one sacrifice to make this happen. The channel that drives the pucks was the channel that normally powers the mini LFE at the shifter. That's the downside of having a mobile rig.

Currently i'm still limited by the 13 pole trailer connector. With 4 poles need for the wind sim, there's only room for 4 channels, nothing more.

Really comes down to what level of effects you are content with.

I have heard rather differently, with one user preferring the exciters over the PUCK units.
The main drawback, especially for engines, you get much better harmonic detailing from the exciters than the more restricted output of the puck and have much greater (@3x) wattage output for the exciters.

Also as Simx limits how the channels are used via 4x Mono EM with Simvibe.
That then would mean using these also for stereo effects is not possible. However of course, we can send what we want to each of the 4 units with Simhub.

 

[dwightyone]

Mm....got nowhere to stick the little exciters to on my seat (sparco r100) - I have a buttkicker gamer2 clamped to the rear seat base cross bar, that works for road vibration. I'm thinking are the self adhesive exciters small enough to stick on the seat rails and then get some engine rpm out of them. Anyone attached them like that?

Been reading the thread like I do often. I can't afford the setup I would like and tbh even if I could, attaching the bigger stuff comes with problems when using a soft foam faux covered recliner car seat with a wooden base - but nevertheless I do enjoy reading this thread and I do pick little things up here and there even if admittedly I am daft as a brush.

 

[No Depth]

So start with 4 exciters and go from there?

I'm curious if people have moved their exciters after sticking them to a seat. How would you pull them off and what kind of adhesive would you use to reapply them?

I moved my exciters constantly around the seat. Had some 1.5” diameter circular 3M double sided discs on hand which were good enough as replacement for the default pre-applied tape. The 1.5” ones perfectly match the exciter base size.

The default tape wears down fast after a couple adjusts, but the 3M tape can really keep em glued easily. But they will too need replacing if you keep i sticking them as well, but they stay on very well that first or second stick.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HLYC8Y...abc_V51QHQFHXXP1QBAP6CPT?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

 

[anton_Chez]

Finally got everything back together, cleaned up and did a few test laps. Have to get used to having the seat a little higher again, but if I adjust everything around it, it shouldn't be any different to before. Probably just the pedal deck needs to move up as much as the seat went up, the wheel height seems to be fine as I think I had it unrealistically high previously. In VR it doesn't matter, but I feel if it was an actual car I'd struggle to see over the top of the steering wheel, so probably had it incorrectly aligned even though it was comfortable.

Both units fit under the seat, in between all the framing it needs to and the 5th harness point is just able to avoid the front TST. So far the feeling is absolutely spot on. Feels great. Only tested the BK CT for now as I wanted something to compare to the places I had previously. On all fronts, this is the clear choice. The sensation is centered on the seat and my body, I can get in and out of the rig without bending backwards like with the CT being upright and in the middle. Fired up the Aston profile (V2 specifically as it's the one I was previously using) even at the risk of being a hypocrite . Feels absolutely great. I didn't touch ANYTHING at all, just fired it up, went out in ACC and everything just felt perfect. So the profile itself is great, which we already knew, but the main thing I wanted to try was how the unit felt where it is. The seat is semi isolated with the rubber pads now but I've no idea how that is comparing to how it was before. It's hard to tell as I got plenty of feeling before where the unit was placed without isolation, both at the rear and in the middle.

I have to get back to effect tuning now that it's all put back together. Aiming to create a profile using a bunch of all the effects I've collected over time and maybe a couple of my own. Will share once I've got something that's worth mentioning.

I do have a constant hum coming from the TST, however, which comes on when I fire up the game, not before. I have the unit disabled in Simhub and I have it connected the same as the BK CT. I've no idea how it's receiving a signal but it's definitely there even while receiving no effects and as soon as I go out of the game, it stops. Will have to look into that a little further when I get into testing it.

In the end, for now, I'm very happy with the 5 hours it took me to rework everything into the rig and I think it's going to benefit me longer term. Bit of pain now (adjusting 8020 is a frickin nightmare) but it looks better, is semi isolated, it's right where you want the units performing (at the seat) and the overall feeling initially has no downside.

So a win, then.

 

[EsxPaul]

I'm thinking are the self adhesive exciters small enough to stick on the seat rails and then get some engine rpm out

I haven't tried them that way but I don't think they would work very well like that. You'd most likely end up disappointed with their performance and having to over power and possibly damaging them in order to get any feeling transmitted up through the various materials. They really work best when you can position them as close to your body as you possibly can. Mr Latte shared an idea for mounting exciters here that might be worth a try though.

@RCHeliguy a post showing the dual lock adhesive with the exciters.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Let me recap what I've seen first hand. It matches exactly what Mr. Latte has been saying. No surprise.

1. The TST429 is a nice piece of equipment, but has proven to be serious overkill for my foot plate and I can't make it go low with equalization curves like I had hoped based on some accounts I've read. I feel like all I did was diminish what it does well. The bottom line is that I could have gotten a lesser TST model and saved some money to put elsewhere.

2. Despite the more speaker like design of the TST's they still do not handle multiple effects well. I can get some great feeling effects pressing the test button in SimHub but they get covered up in use. ( Edit: At lower volumes I seem to be getting better multi-effects through it )

Meanwhile I'm leaning more on the TST329 on my seat and freeing the BK-CT to do what it does best. The multi-layer wheel slide is working beautifully. I can feel the tires just starting to slide safely and the TST329 ramps up and then the BK-CT kicks in when things are really sliding. However this effect is something that has to be dialed in for the car on a track to get it just right. I'm trying to find reasonable more generic settings that work well on a variety of tracks.

I also need to start getting comfortable with the extra effects and start dropping their intensity so they are there, but not as distracting.

 

[anton_Chez]

How do your TST's sound when in game, but not actually assigned effects? I'm trying to work out why when I launch a game that a constant signal is sent to them, which is affected by the gain levels (lower and the effect goes lower/off, higher and the effect becomes stronger) and results in a hum no matter what I do. If it were too high a gain overall, you'd think that you'd be getting that effect just sitting in Windows desktop, but it doesn't, it only happens when launching a game. The game is outputting sound to my actual audio sound card (Sound Blaster Z) and the tactile units are connected to the on board sound card output which shouldn't be receiving an audio signal at all apart from the telemetry Simhub sends to them.

It's strange. The same thing happened with the exciters, but they made a bit more sense as having too much gain sent to them (in all scenarios, not just when a game launched) caused them to output the same sort of hum. Getting the gain down to a level where they still had enough power but were for the most part inaudible worked fine. The TST doesn't do that. Only happens when a game is launched. I even tried turning the channel down completely in Windows sound settings, don't think it made any difference.

 

[RCHeliguy]

My TST's are fine and making no sound when they are not producing an effect.

I'm running a 7.1 Audiology board in my computer driving the 4 channels and using two stereo 1/8" plugs to XLR connectors in the back of my NX4-6000.

However I do have equalization curves applied to all of them, so my TST's have two stacked high pass filters above 600Hz that take their signal down to -30dB by 1100Hz. I'll probably move that knee back to about 300Hz since I'm not using much there.

I am also starting to feel more differentiation and more effects now that I've turned the effects down a chunk. I think everything was just overwhelming before. I'm starting to find "just right".

So I take back just a little in that I'm getting more effects out of my TST's now that I've pulled the volume back.

I'm still experimenting with all the effects and how they interact, but overall it is starting to feel more long term livable.

 

[lovemesomespeed]

I'm running a 7.1 Audiology board in my computer driving the 4 channels and using two stereo 1/8" plugs to XLR connectors in the back of my NX4-6000.

@RCHeliguy - you mention you are using two separate stereo 1/8” plugs to XLR connectors to go from your sound card to the NXD… is there any reason to use two 1/8” to XLR cables instead of using a stereo 1/8” to *dual* XLR and run that into the NXD?

I just placed an order for the NXD3000D, EPQ304, an LFE, and the TST329. The Dayton exciters are on backorder right now. I’m just wondering if I bought the wrong cable since I bought this cable:

Hosa HMX-015Y Pro Stereo Breakout Cable - 3.5mm TRS Male to Dual XLR Male - 15-foot

3.5mm TRS Male to Dual XLR Male Breakout Cable with REAN Connectors - 15'

www.sweetwater.com