Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[iv13]

If you mean these: View attachment 496444
.. they are essentially rigid and generally provide levelling, rather than isolation.
Rubber feet are an option:

yeah, exactly, those!

I have the rubber feet as well, i could use those for the rig, if it serves as an isolation option

or i could go with something different, if you have some suggestions?

As for the feet of a rig on the floor, I refer to that as secondary isolation in that some users may also want to apply additional materials or solutions to reduce vibrations travelling into other rooms.

One or two of my beta testers, require this but as yet they are not quite up and running to be able to get 1-1 feedback from them on how well the springs help on a typical rig to also suppress the vibes into the floor.

This is one of the things the beta tests will help determine.

This is my biggest concern, my rig is in my living room, and i dont really want to annoy my significant other with my hobby (as well as others living in the building).

 

[blekenbleu]

I have the rubber feet as well, i could use those for the rig, if it serves as an isolation option

My guess is that those rubber feet are intended more to e.g. avoid marring wood flooring than isolate.
The better approach is to, so much as practical, isolate vibrating fixtures from the P1-X extrusions,
but specifically-designed vibration isolators and more generic appliance vibration damper pads exist:

 

[Klingomucingo]

yeah, exactly, those!

I have the rubber feet as well, i could use those for the rig, if it serves as an isolation option

or i could go with something different, if you have some suggestions?


This is my biggest concern, my rig is in my living room, and i dont really want to annoy my significant other with my hobby (as well as others living in the building).

in Germany some of the Motion Rig users have put their actuators on so-called Eluflex Isolators. Might also be a good option for isolating the feets of an tactile rig. There is a short Video about it on Youtube

 

[iv13]

in Germany some of the Motion Rig users have put their actuators on so-called Eluflex Isolators. Might also be a good option for isolating the feets of an tactile rig. There is a short Video about it on Youtube

This is actually interesting.

I live like 45 minutes away from this company. Ill try to get in touch with them, and see their suggestions.

 

[Mr Latte]

With isolation options being in the dozens/hundreds it is hard to determine what is the best approach to take that fits in with the requirements of sim rigs and specifically if using powerful tactile.

Those using like above or similar, based on applying below an SFX motion rig to assumingly reduce the vibration into the floor beneath?

We have to take into account that for seat/pedals isolation, not just a rig/floor scenario, some other points need to be addressed.

The primary factors I saw that needed to be sustained for sim-rig builds but did not find with off the shelf current offerings were:

• Strong enough to use with motion without unwanted tilt
• Adjustable pre-tension to suit high load pedal depression and heavier seat loads.
• Compact, that it did not raise a seat/pedal section much over the original design
• Account for wheel decks, don't offer much additional height adjustment
• Designed to work better with a wider range of frequencies inc harmonics.
• Moddable, that the design can be combined with additional dampening materials or different springs to suit the user's preference or application requirements.

 

[iv13]

Im not sure that Ive understood, where are you aiming with this.

Let me rephrase my case;

My ultimate goal, is to have something similar to what Peter did in his seat isolation (if not the exact same thing). I wont do anything for pedals, just for the seat (at least for the time being).

My plan A was to have something like what you designed, attach something similar like he did.

Seat platform with isolation -> rig -> level of isolation -> floor

Plan B would be to have something really simplified, something like a single buttkicker gamer 2. For this, id also have to have some kind of bucket seat isolation.

Seat+buttkicker -> simplified isolation -> rig -> level of isolation -> floor

Plan A would be a long term, better overall solution. At least it feels like that to me.

In both of those cases, Id want to keep the noise comming out of the rig absolutely minimal (think none whatsoever if possible).

What i dont know is, what makes sense? Im not an expert here in these fields, and its something completely new.

 

[blekenbleu]

Starting from theory, isolation involves springs, which can temporarily store vibrations.
Springs may be metal or e.g. certain elastomer formulations.
Damping involves converting motions to heat, but necessarily involves also transmitting some energy.
Sprung masses without damping will continue to oscillate, so some damping is always wanted.
An issue for sprung seats is that they deflect not only for vibrations
but also other forces, including driver weight and forces applied to pedals.
For springs to store (and return) vibrations well while minimizing objectionable deflections
involves luck or careful mechanical configuration and selection of spring rates.

One trick for minimizing pedal force deflections would be
connecting e.g. woven cargo straps between the sprung seat and pedal box.

 

[Mr Latte]

Im not sure that Ive understood, where are you aiming with this.

Let me rephrase my case;

My ultimate goal, is to have something similar to what Peter did in his seat isolation (if not the exact same thing). I wont do anything for pedals, just for the seat (at least for the time being).

My plan A was to have something like what you designed, attach something similar like he did.

Seat platform with isolation -> rig -> level of isolation -> floor

Plan B would be to have something really simplified, something like a single buttkicker gamer 2. For this, id also have to have some kind of bucket seat isolation.

Seat+buttkicker -> simplified isolation -> rig -> level of isolation -> floor

Plan A would be a long term, better overall solution. At least it feels like that to me.

In both of those cases, Id want to keep the noise comming out of the rig absolutely minimal (think none whatsoever if possible).

What i dont know is, what makes sense? Im not an expert here in these fields, and its something completely new.

Let's make it simple to understand.

I have already hinted that in the near future their (may) be a package solution you can buy from an *exclusive collaborating Sim company. One that has been tried and tested based on and improving my own ideas/efforts.

This could let a user purchase a seat or pedal or both isolation platforms like has been teased. Such platforms will allow a certain array of tactile to be installed.

More development is needed and some other design ideas are to be tried.
All I can say is, I will soon have several (private testers) offering feedback on the current (beta) spring/isolators.

Part of the testing process will let us determine not just how this helps to improve the felt tactile (energy/detail) *which already is confirmed, but also what it does to help reduce vibes into the floor.

It will be possible to add additional materials to further suppress vibrational/audible frequencies with how my own solution are made and can be connected to a rig. This is not perhaps possible on some already off-the-shelf spring options. Also some spring options I tried were either too tall or not ideal in compression ratio to suit this form of application.

A rig on rubber castors will also help to dampen vibes that go into the floor, I even shared recently some of the things I did on my own (w.i.p) build.


More Advanced Effects Via Research & Greater Understanding
Rather than just try to create effects by feel alone, what if somebody tried to go much further?

What do certain Simhub settings really do? Can we use frequencies better? How do we get more creative with tone generation? This gentleman is all part of my own, ongoing effects experimentation.

My own approach is not just to focus on a hardware installation solution that could potentially be brought to market, but also in seeking to develop effects that are to a much higher standard. By using the best-combined hardware with good isolation/installation, for the most awesome immersion possible that tactile can offer!


If interested download this image to see some extra details.

Here, using some pro audio tools, I highlight an example of 3 versions of an effect in comparison. Looking at the primary frequencies/harmonics generated, the waveform created, and the frequencies with the most intensity.

It is possible to compare and determine just how little tactile bandwidth "standard effects" and budget tactile will offer compared to what is possible. Can you guess which colour from these is the standard "wheelslip" effect?



With this approach to building more advanced effects. They can be built to get the best from the used hardware. We do not have to try and assume what Hz we think is being generated or if we are using the best potential from each (BK/TST/EXC).

 

[metalnwood]

I hope you manage to commercialise all of this as more off the shelf options never hurt anyone and help the majority that just want a plugin and go experience.

I have a question though, is the sim partner going to be using a solution based on simhub or incorporate this tech in to different software? Simhub is used by many and already in use for many rigs. IT's always a pita adding more software to a stack but at the same time simhub will offer no protection to your profiles.

 

[Mr Latte]

I hope you manage to commercialise all of this as more off the shelf options never hurt anyone and help the majority that just want a plugin and go experience.

I have a question though, is the sim partner going to be using a solution based on simhub or incorporate this tech in to different software? Simhub is used by many and already in use for many rigs. IT's always a pita adding more software to a stack but at the same time simhub will offer no protection to your profiles.

Thanks, its still early days yet, with much to do....

I believe the intention is to create effects for Simhub.
However, for people to get the effects to work properly, then they kinda would need the recommended hardware/installation the effects are purposely made for.

It would be a bit of a disaster, for someone trying to use effects designed for the usage of the full dynamic (bass range). Yet them using basic/budget hardware, that can only reproduce about 25% of that dynamic (bass range).

Many of the effects may contain more than one or multiple layers. All the user has to do is alter volumes, but a nice touch with this is that the user can tweak the (mix) for the generated sensation to their own liking. This is another benefit over standard or often basic effects.

One of the things I will do with beta testers is to see the settings they preferred for each of the effects. It's not as if I will try to state what they can or should only use. That would be silly, but I would be keen to compare from several testers, to let us determine if we see similar settings used or variations in how people adjust to their mood/preferences.

 

[anton_Chez]

Hardly a disaster. More like, I tried the profile, didn't feel much of an effect. Must be because my units are not designed with the hz the profile targets.

I understand the gatekeeping behind one's profiles. Fair enough. A lot of work goes into them. But someone not getting the most out of them , because they haven't invested enough $ which could have kit out an entire sim rig instead, is hardly the end of the world. The worst that could happen is they get a bit of piston knocking with the small BK units.

I adapted effects built for the large units (I don't have to anymore, I just use them as is since I have one now) onto my smaller units simply by knowing the range of effects my unit was capable of. A small disclaimer, with some of the more popular units being mentioned within, would be all that's needed to give people a head start. For example:

Designed for BK LFE / CT units. See below for appropriate hz ranges for your unit:

Aura: 40-100hz
BK Mini & Gamer 2: 38-80hz
Etc
Etc.

Not hard.

 

[Mr Latte]

Hardly a disaster. More like, I tried the profile, didn't feel much of an effect. Must be because my units are not designed with the hz the profile targets.

I understand the gatekeeping behind one's profiles. Fair enough. A lot of work goes into them. But someone not getting the most out of them , because they haven't invested enough $ which could have kit out an entire sim rig instead, is hardly the end of the world. The worst that could happen is they get a bit of piston knocking with the small BK units.

I adapted effects built for the large units (I don't have to anymore, I just use them as is since I have one now) onto my smaller units simply by knowing the range of effects my unit was capable of. A small disclaimer, with some of the more popular units being mentioned within, would be all that's needed to give people a head start. For example:

Designed for BK LFE / CT units. See below for appropriate hz ranges for your unit:

Aura: 40-100hz
BK Mini & Gamer 2: 38-80hz
Etc
Etc.

Not hard.

I wasn't just trying to reference you Anton and you are just adding confusion...
Let's be honest, you have not felt the newest (privately tested) effects from this year, that may have specific BK/TST/EXC layers. You also have not yet, even experienced a tactile installation that uses the selected hardware, combined how it should and with it, also installed as recommended.

So based on that, to clarify any confusion here.
I do not see how you can form any assessment on what a user will or will not be missing and must be also referencing past effects you tried to use. It's like someone trying to get HDR on a black and white TV.

Please after your recent personal insults to me, can you respectfully ignore my posts as you said already you are done. I am tired of, trying to advise and help you, then arguing or debating things with you...


Recommended Path
I have shared recently, with the "Stage 1" approach, an installation solution that will deliver the best tactile immersion and level of control of that tactile for the money. Yes, I make that as a claim but one I feel I can also back up. I even welcome some to challenge it with a different approach or method of their own.

As a solution, its specific tactile hardware can also be obtained through time to build towards ownership of the EXC/TST/BK . Yet still fully purchased for less than what certain high-end wheelbase/rims or some high-end pedals will cost. Also cheaper than some seat motion systems.

My point is, the price is not beyond what people already spend for the "best quality" in other areas of sim immersion hardware. Additionally, as a concept, it is of course, even possible to further expand it, if a user ever desires to or wants even greater effects immersion.


To clarify something for others on points Anton made above....
Many of the "newer" effects that have been privately developed this year, do not rely on the performance of a single unit to output the effect. They may require all 3 types of units as each unit has "effect roles" that combine to generate the total effect within the seat. So not only is the effects "complete sensation" being created from multiple selected units. The effects are applied to suit the developed installation, which is enveloping the seat/user much better than a traditional installation with additional body zone locations being used.

Point 1:
Therefore, it's not just about inferior units being used by anyone trying to use a common budget unit for these more advanced effects, which does not offer the full bass range the effect contains.

Point 2:
The effect in how it is to be routed and to be displaced over the seat is not happening as designed. Therefore the user to feel the effect "as intended" needs to have the correct necessary hardware installed in the recommended way.

Point 3
We do not want to create much more advanced effects for people to only experience part of them. As some will settle for that as (good enough). So, to make it simple if people have more budget tactile, that's fine with me but they should focus more on making effects that suit the capabilities for their own hardware instead. Taking into account the performance restrictions of that hardware or their own installation maybe imposes.

 

[anton_Chez]

Omg. I’m never going to get to try any of this and neither will 95% of this thread.

So all the push back against basically anything I say is just lip service. No one is going to try these files because no one apart from someone like Winkler is going to EVER have the level of hardware it desire.

So I’ll just go back to using my pleb status gear ($1,300 and counting) with old profiles and be on my way.

 

[RCHeliguy]

@Mr Latte, I completely understand how standardizing the hardware and mounting solutions is the only way to have "known" results that can guarantee the experience you've created.

You need the right transducers to create the signals you want to feel.
You need equalization to optimize the signals the transducers create.
You need correct mounting solution so the signal isn't lost.
And then when those three things are in place, the effects will work "properly".

The system will only be as good as the weakest link.

That said, @anton_Chez , I think suggesting 5% of the people in this thread will reach what Peter Winkler has done is optimistic. Primarily for budget reasons, but for the time being also disbelief. There is a market of "whales" who will spend the money if they believe the results will be worth it. As more people like Peter build these tactile systems, there will be more believers and more pent up demand.

FWIW I think the "whales" are exactly the market that something like this should be catered to. Most new things start upscale. Over time and after learning more, there may be more trickledown, but it is the wrong place to focus.

Right now working with well funded early adopters who are willing to experiment is the right move.

 

[Mr Latte]

Omg. I’m never going to get to try any of this and neither will 95% of this thread.

So all the push back against basically anything I say is just lip service. No one is going to try these files because no one apart from someone like Winkler is going to EVER have the level of hardware it desire.

So I’ll just go back to using my pleb status gear ($1,300 and counting) with old profiles and be on my way.

Yes you keep missing that this is a new approach and new concept focused on getting the best from tactile.

As explained which you seem to ignore, it can be bought into with only the exciters/amp then the other elements when suits the user to spend more. Additionally, a user can also buy into the "seat first" if they chose to and then still enjoy the full sensation of the effects the seat itself offers. Wow, this is really well thought out eh...

Amusingly, you get agitated or angry and are a fool because you already are going to own much of "that hardware" the seat requires. Even when these forums clearly have enough info on the importance of installation/isolation you kick off when you are questioned in doing something stupid, going by "what you think" and ignoring what others (not just myself) have already spent a lot of time on testing or learning then sharing.

Sorry, but you are doing my head in man, from here, I am best to place you on ignore. You are welcome to do the same as you appear to have nothing positive to offer on this. Fail to see the potential it brings, ignore how it can be purchased up over time, and prefer to criticise or bring added confusion/disruption about it.

 

[anton_Chez]

I am best to place you on ignore, you are welcome to do the same as you appear to have nothing positive to offer on this. Fail to see the potential it brings and prefer to criticise or bring added confusion/disruption.

Dude, you're not the only person on Earth who can offer opinions and recommendations based on their own experiences. You are fine to ignore me all you want, all I see from your posts is blah blah my way or the highway blah blah.

I am willing to be my existence that there are FAR more people able to relate to myself rather than what you've been waffling on about. You fail to understand, that while you are offering suggestions and recommendations, you far more often are belittling anything that doesn't match what you're prescribing to those very few beta testers.

This is a community, not a dictatorship, so until Race Department decide to revoke my permissions to post on their website, the ignore button is right over there.

 

[Mr Latte]

@RCHeliguy, yes you seem to be getting it and one of the biggest issues that has plaged tactile is the many varations in hardware/installation and rigs.

So the first thing that needs to be achieved is to form a tried and tested installation method to help greatly minimise these differences. This is why isolation is also important and a solution like the "springs" is part of the concept.


As an example, D-Box can be installed to a rig, when it's on the user has access to profiles and all they have to do is apply volumes to suit their preference to enjoy a high quality of motion.

I highlight here, that with "tactile" as it is today this is not possible.
To buy as a kit or buy in a d.i.y approach to then be able to experience the effects and immersion it offers as intended.

One of my own goals is to take effects much further, as illustrated above is how far I am going to try to achieve that. Having this level of hardware with this "concept" lets us open a new doorway to what the possibilities are.

It is not being forced on anyone but is perhaps more interesting for people that want to experience a higher quality of tactile immersion. Some perhaps with not a clue about audio but looking to benefit in easily enjoying highly developed effects and an immersion that is much better than what most today use.

 

[iv13]

@Mr Latte so, out of curiosity...

How much would a solution like yours cost?

..or what exactly is in this solution? The isolation platform? +audio hardware? +software?

Is there an entry level to it? Or do i need to splash out 1000 euros for it?

 

[RCHeliguy]

I'm getting closer. It's a process.

I was impressed with the combination of BK-CT and TST 329 on my seat and I'll add a bunch of exciters in September when they are available again. So far I'm happy with software equalization. I'm completely prepped to bolt a TST 429 to my foot plate when it arrives tomorrow

My seat is on a universal pivot with enough play for useful effects but is not sprung vertically. That said, by positioning the transducers where I have, they do "rock the boat" in a meaningful way. My foot plate is isolated pretty well, but is obviously my solution and not yours.

Looking forward to playing with equalizing my TST429 to see what I can get out of it.

As some have observed this is not an inexpensive process.

To date I have purchased the following: ( MSRP's)

NX4-6000 = $450
BK CT = $269
TST329 = $389
TST429 = $569
Compared to the his Level 1 setup this doesn't include a BK-CT for my feet, my amp doesn't have DSP's and I'm not using Race-Bass mounting.

I have 4 Aura's and an old DIY 100Wx4 amplifier sitting in my closet collecting dust.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte so, out of curiosity...

How much would a solution like yours cost?

..or what exactly is in this solution? The isolation platform? +audio hardware? +software?

Is there an entry level to it? Or do i need to splash out 1000 euros for it?

This is a good question to ask, first let's get some perspective on just the seat for a comparison...

What price is a VR3 seat-based motion?
What price is a NJ Motion seat?
What price is a SimX G-Seat?
What price is a SimX G-Harness?

While some of these may also come with additional high import fees/shipping costs, these as options will bring their own pros/cons.

Now a question for you guys....
Is there any guarantee a user/owner of these will prefer those as options, compared to the immersion this level of tactile and new concept/approach with effects will offer?

The General Seat Hardware:
1x TST T209 / 1x BK LFE / 4x EXC
1x NX3000D / 1x EPQ 304 / 1x t.racks DSP
1x Cable Pack / 1x Seat Isolation Pack / 1x Silent Fan Mod Pack

This would likely be @ £1200-£1300 region

Some savings could be made in skipping the EPQ304 for the Mini Amp version of the t.racks.
However, we are finding several people like the professional appearance of buying a studio-type rack and having rack-mountable hardware. A user could also spend a bit more if upgrading the TST to a Silver or Gold model.

I feel these bring benefits in performance and are worth considering but not essential to feel the specially designed/advanced effects.

For a complete Stage 1 with isolation pack in both seat and pedals and as a complete all-in package, yeah I reckon £1900 - £2000 is a general ballpark.

What I can tell you is, based on the performance it brings and how much people are enjoying it. I do not believe it is a hard sell and already interest is building.

I will not be handling sales, or shipping, it's not what I want to do and these are mere approximations given.