Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

My point is the mic showed is not intended to be used in the way you explain using it?
Its usage is it not, to use an instrument with no audio connectivity to be mixed/inserted into audio hardware?

Even if you do all that and have some form of data compiled.
It does not change anything to the rig materials or how vibes within those materials travel.

Someone wanting to do phase tests with how the tactile are installed or indeed variations in placement will judge such based on how it feels. Glasses of water, vibrations apps are much less hassle than what you are proposing and can help give the user some idea on what's happening.

A user with an 8020 rig as an example, can install directly to the designated area and users body contact regions being the (seat/pedal sections) for more direct felt response. This is one of the points I raise (often) with what various people do instead by installing tactile to the mainframe sections and offering the vibrations various paths or contact points to travel.

A user should try to trace what path and distance the vibrations have to travel to reach the user. In many usage cases , only some of the initial energy will be going to the designated area. Also, higher bass frequencies with less bandwidth may not maintain the detail they have as they do not travel as far as lower bass frequencies. So the user is typically not going to be getting the best output from the device being used if they do not have it more directly installed to the contact surface of the user and of course helping to maintain its vibrations with isolation.

This is tried, tested and proven as is de-coupling the seat and pedals from the main rig frame using isolation....
Its up to people here to chose what they want to do or whose advice they decide to follow.

A current point of topic is how 2x large BK may indeed outperform 4x Bk Mini in CM as for some reason people automatically see 4 way CM type configurations as the best option and installing units in 4 corners.

Is it, or is something like others are showing by their own approaches and methods?

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte Your posts about tactile immersion has given me a bug to add bass shakers to my 8020 racing sim rig. My rig will be in the basement on carpet so unwanted vibrations to other rooms shouldn't be an issue. However, I'm struggling to piece together a full build. If you can help me out, great. But, if not, I completely understand. If it would be easier to start a new tread as to not "dirty up" this thread, I'm willing to do so. Looking forward to your response.

Have a look on the forums as some new builds people are doing they are adding some recommend options.

A rig with 1 or 2 large BK and 4/6/8 exciters will offer quite a superb amount of sensation and options in how/where to place effects. It also lets users build effects that are not restricted to individual units outputting the effect. Instead you create effects using frequencies that best utilise both the low bass of the BK and the additional performance and detailing of the exciters.

You can have exciters work individually or in batches in stereo or mono to output the effects how you please.
These are not options traditional installations offer.

 

[DesKane]

@Mr Latte

By eck mate it's been a long time, Merry New Year to you buddy. Been a mad year, shite for most but I count myself very lucky in the world of manufacturing, so let's leave that there.

But yes loving the rig, LIVING THE RIG.

down to the ****. you know I bought the NX4 6000 recently. Blasted by way through multiple 3000amp Behringer amps in the past, But this little beastie being 4 in 4 out is tidy for power and cable management. We have many man iterations over the years,

BUT.... If you have the money to purchase this unit Plus x4 Butt Kicker Advance Units, as we know it isn't cheap. For me personally has been the best plug-and-play setup up yet. No, it isn't DSP but it does give you the headroom and low end you need if you know what you are looking for. BUT thanks to you Rod and for sharing your knowledge of Hz hi and lo end I now know this is a great solution, for me, but is still very expensive if you want to play, and I do.

At this point, I can only recommend SIMHUB to give you variable feedback, we have tried a few, but this is bloody good at finding your immersion on track.

Take your time to search for each effect and you will find your sweet spot.

Rodders much love and peace ... 2021 X

 

[Ormy]

Does anyone know if you can send signals to a BK (a single one) that would concentrate the vibrations in one direction or the other? Example, a signal that tell the BK to give more 'upward' effect. And then a separate signal that would tell it to give more 'downward' effect.

Technically no, conservation of linear momentum means any reciprocating mass oscillating along a single axis cannot impart a net force (i.e. more force in one direction than the other measured over multiple cycles) along it's axis of oscillation. There are exceptions like exploiting a difference in static vs sliding friction or using materials with different coefficients of static friction in different directions of motion, but this doesn't apply to a BK or any tactile transducer.

I guess you could kind of achieve the illusion of this effect by carefully altering the shape of the waveform sent to the BK, but simhub does not have that ability. Simhub only outputs simple sine waves with the option for added bandwidth-limited white noise. There is no function for sawtooth/square/custom waveforms. Maybe if this feature is ever added in the future...

 

[Mr Latte]

Well lads been interesting with all the science theory but to improve tactile we need action and not just fancy words.

So while I have reasons to question some recent things mentioned by all means lets see peoples efforts by such ideas or methods, if they go through with them.

This is not aimed at any individuals here:
I've yet to see an in-depth report on how/what adding weights or using leverage as physical multipliers gives the user in control. Yes, these methods will increase output energy but nobody has plain out determined if it does this more with certain frequencies than others, or factors regard if it causes some frequencies to swamp out others?

Average joe may think, man thats great my cheap transducers now feel stronger or my small BK now feel more like bigger ones. In reality what frequency output and detail in various effects can that installation output? What control of different frequencies that different effects use, does the user have? My point here is that having more output in energy from tactile may increase the fun with it, but it is certainly not the only factor that should be considered.

My perspective on this and that while mechanical based amplifiers in "weights" or "leverage" may help give a bit of boost and the user not really be able to show or understand exactly what is happening. They base such as a success if it feels stronger, right?

Over my own journey, the focus was on control and expanding channels with the usage of the full bass range, not the typical limitations found on many transducers. So via discovered hardware/software, we can apply accurately output gain and frequency control to whatever preferences or indeed specific transducers we want, even units with primary roles (RPM/SPEED) being examples.

Choose the path that suits your preference, interest or budget.
I am not against people with different views or ideas but I try to explain why the approach I have taken has benefits, even if a person gradually expands their tactile integration on a rig. Some may disagree and hey listen, thats fine, but go ahead and explain more how your own different approaches are then applied, why and or based on what testing or monitoring was done. Less theories perhaps, more practice, and details from usage case scenarios.


Altering shapes of waveforms?
@Ormy
What benefit would we have if Sawtooth/Square/Triangle waveforms could be used in generating tactile based effects in Simhub? Can you give some examples in layman's terms?

Taking into consideration that, firstly within @30-80Hz as thats what the majority of people only experience with the units they use? The additionally created harmonics with other waveforms would they create more hum but no real vibration benefits? Is it not possible that it would create even more mushiness in the ability to feel individual effects?

Various online tone generators let the user select different waveforms if they want to play around with such.
THIS for me was useful to understand as harmonics are an important factor but people have no clue as to what frequencies are being generated from multiple effects just by feel alone.

That is why having various visual analysis tools can aid effects creation, so effects can be made and grouped much more efficiently and even tweaked to best use known specific performances or operating characteristics that different transducers have.

@Atak_Kat
You never gave a usage case scenario you were thinking of?

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte

By eck mate it's been a long time, Merry New Year to you buddy. Been a mad year, shite for most but I count myself very lucky in the world of manufacturing, so let's leave that there.

But yes loving the rig, LIVING THE RIG.

down to the ****. you know I bought the NX4 6000 recently. Blasted by way through multiple 3000amp Behringer amps in the past, But this little beastie being 4 in 4 out is tidy for power and cable management. We have many man iterations over the years,

BUT.... If you have the money to purchase this unit Plus x4 Butt Kicker Advance Units, as we know it isn't cheap. For me personally has been the best plug-and-play setup up yet. No, it isn't DSP but it does give you the headroom and low end you need if you know what you are looking for. BUT thanks to you Rod and for sharing your knowledge of Hz hi and lo end I now know this is a great solution, for me, but is still very expensive if you want to play, and I do.

At this point, I can only recommend SIMHUB to give you variable feedback, we have tried a few, but this is bloody good at finding your immersion on track.

Take your time to search for each effect and you will find your sweet spot.

Rodders much love and peace ... 2021 X

Well, you went a bit quiet eh, good to see you active, and yes Godbless you in 2021....

Glad you are enjoying your rig but in fairness, quite a bit more has been learned/discovered in ways to seek better effects since we talked alot. The inclusion of using exciters with BK units brought new abilities and some rethinking on effects creation too. Yes indeed BK are getting quite costly and with so many people having limited (true stereo) effect sensations I have been seeing dual large BK as a better path now to consider and focus on finer detailing or stereo-based sensations to be placed directly to the body in seat and pedals with exciters.

For me, having the DSP is still important but it really depends on how far you want to take things.
What level of tuning is desired in the user's control will vary with different people.



Is this a bit much for a sim rig?

Spoiler: Info

Just a joke at myself, its not my gear...

 

[anton_Chez]

Hey dudes. I'm going to be a pain here but I can see it saving me hours in google searches. I just bought an Earthquake MQB-1 unit and was wondering what the most cost effective amp would be to power it? I think it's rated at 500W and from what I can see, it is 8ohm although I'm not completely sure if I can run it at a difference impedance. I am most likely going to sell on the BK Mini LFE's that I have here and just run one of these on the bottom of my seat along with the Dayton exciters I already have on the seat.

 

[Atak_Kat]

@Atak_Kat
You never gave a usage case scenario you were thinking of?

Oh, nothing really specific. Just curious. Thanks

 

[Mr Latte]

Hey dudes. I'm going to be a pain here but I can see it saving me hours in google searches. I just bought an Earthquake MQB-1 unit and was wondering what the most cost effective amp would be to power it? I think it's rated at 500W and from what I can see, it is 8ohm although I'm not completely sure if I can run it at a difference impedance. I am most likely going to sell on the BK Mini LFE's that I have here and just run one of these on the bottom of my seat along with the Dayton exciters I already have on the seat.

Doubt you will need to use its full wattage, their own branded amp is only 1 x 170 Watts RMS @ 8-Ohm
As per usual I would advise something like an NX1000D as they support 2ohm 4ohm 8ohm with the DSP and you can use different ohm units on either channel. With it, you basically get an amp that will power from the smallest to the largest transducers and something very few amps can do.

The QB1 has 1.5" excursion at 22Hz which I believe is more than the BK Mini based models.
Never tried one of these but I would say its performance is something in between the Mini BK and BK Advance.

Others here own them though...

I do have the larger Q10B which has 2" excursion with more power but only so far briefly used it.

 

[anton_Chez]

Yep that's what I'd thought you'd say and I just bought the NX1000D. The only thing is, now I need a bunch of connectors to make everything work. The connection on the end of the MQB-1 looks really weird. What do I do with that? I was going to get a BK LFE but then seen these and people recommending them. I was under the impression at 500W, they'd be comparable to a large BK unit. People that have them on forums highly recommend them.

Edit: I should ask because I need to know now, is the excursion the travel of the piston?

 

[Ruttman98]

I ended up ordering this cable instead of the separate cable and plug and cut it in half.

View attachment 431399View attachment 431399

Thank you for all the information, when I’m lucky everything arrives tomorrow.
I want to install the first BK LFE below the seat and the second one below the pedals but dont know how to attach.

Great idea. I have been thinking about doing the same thing with a Monoprice cable.

 

[Mr Latte]

A

Yep that's what I'd thought you'd say and I just bought the NX1000D. The only thing is, now I need a bunch of connectors to make everything work. The connection on the end of the MQB-1 looks really weird. What do I do with that? I was going to get a BK LFE but then seen these and people recommending them. I was under the impression at 500W, they'd be comparable to a large BK unit. People that have them on forums highly recommend them.

Edit: I should ask because I need to know now, is the excursion the travel of the piston?

Congrats on the amp purchase, IIRC you had an SMSL unit for the BK Mini.

The connection allows the user to easily disconnect/remove the unit from the amps extended cable using that plug it appears to have. Kinda like using a SpeakON coupler with two male connectors but this connector looks more like something RC batteries would of used.

As the Earthquake unit itself has a fixed cable attachment. An example would be removing the unit from the rig with this adapter plug it has, still leaving the longer cable run from the amp. Then, let's assume a scenario of using an amp in another TV room area. They can attach the unit to a plate that's bolted to their couch etc and use the unit for different purposes.

Wattages are often used, possibly as selling tactics, users of large BK for example, won't use them at 1500w and I don't know any transducer that performs at its best under its max rated wattage. In this example, you have a unit rated at up to 500W yet the companies own amps with single units at 8 ohms is only 170W. With close proximity installation and best if directly on the seat then you also will not need a high wattage. You can digitally set the NX1000D to 8ohms and for 200w output. See the link I have in the first post for NXD amps.

As for the excursion, yes I believe it is the travel. Higher Hz are cycles per second so that applies to the movement of the piston. Higher Hz may also generate more heat with the increased rate of the piston. Lower bass frequencies I presume require more excursion and of course fewer cycles per second.

This video helps demonstrate lower bass frequencies and how their bandwidth energy can move more mass
Take a look at the sofa at under 10Hz with dual Q10B (@4:35)

I can't be certain this is fully accurate but we see the same pattern with Earthquake & Buttkicker regards different models they have. A larger excursion will help produce more felt output. Higher wattages are typically related to models using heavier pistons and a unit with increased wattage/heavier/larger piston will produce more bandwidth in output with the improved response at even lower frequencies.




Note: See the rated Hz

Additional size comparison to largest BK
In some scenarios or installations, the Q10B could be fitted where the largest BK cant...



Hope it helps, wish you well

 

[anton_Chez]

Thanks mate, that sounds like it all makes sense. I just don't know what those connectors on the MQB-1 are actually called. What would I search for to buy? At the moment yes I still have both the SMSL amps and they use the RCA plugs to connect to the PC. Would getting an RCA > XLR adapter suffice or should I get a 3.5mm > XLR cable and start from scratch? I already have the length I need with the RCA's but obviously the plugs are different on the NX1000D and I'll need to adapt to those.

I already have the BK Mini under the seat directly so I'll be replacing that with the MQB-1. I'll probably pack some of the isolating pads in between its mount and the seat, hopefully with that it won't be too jarring. I'll try both ways anyway just to test.

So my main question really remains, I need to buy a cable that is SpeakOn > ? in order to connect this MQB-1. Would removing that plug be an option? I still am unfamiliar with SpeakOn plugs so I'll need to read a bit on them as well.

 

[Mr Latte]

Just looks like a clip connection and Id expect it ships with a connector for the user to put on their cable run.
One of the website images shows this. You could cut this connector off and then use SpeakOn connections which are an industry standard for pro audio solutions.

Keep in mind SpeakON cables are for the amps output/speaker section.
XLR is an interconnect to connect into the amp.

Avoid adapters where possible, get a decent quality 3.5mm- Dual Male XLR cable.
Some soundcards use RCA for the stereo out but most are 3.5mm

 

[anton_Chez]

Yep that makes sense. I have already bought 2 x SpeakON connectors for the MQB-1 and x adapters for the RCA > XLR input for the soundcard > amp connection. So I think I am set, hopefully the adapters aren't too bad. I got 2 for 10 bucks with free shipping so I thought I couldn't really go wrong there. If I decide to keep one BK mini I'll need another pair of the SpeakOn's but I'll connect it all as intended and see how it feels from there. I'd like to get rid of those 2 Mini's and the SMSL amp and just run everything to the actual seat.

Just had a race where I added some suspension bumps and curbs through Simhub to the Mini LFE on the seat. For a quick setup it felt pretty good. Need to tune some of the useless bumps out as some of the parts of the track it becomes unnecessary noise. But without motion now, it does add something to bridge that gap. With the exciters doing most of the engine RPM work, I am free to use the larger unit for road effects and maybe even some low hz ABS or general deceleration forces. Would love an updated profile if there is one floating around especially for larger units.

Rod, does your Large LFE profile include any suspension effects? i do have it and I'm running the engine vibes to the Mini LFE's from it, with the Dayton's getting the effects from the exciters V pucks profile.

 

[Mr Latte]

Yep that makes sense. I have already bought 2 x SpeakON connectors for the MQB-1 and x adapters for the RCA > XLR input for the soundcard > amp connection. So I think I am set, hopefully the adapters aren't too bad. I got 2 for 10 bucks with free shipping so I thought I couldn't really go wrong there. If I decide to keep one BK mini I'll need another pair of the SpeakOn's but I'll connect it all as intended and see how it feels from there. I'd like to get rid of those 2 Mini's and the SMSL amp and just run everything to the actual seat.

Just had a race where I added some suspension bumps and curbs through Simhub to the Mini LFE on the seat. For a quick setup it felt pretty good. Need to tune some of the useless bumps out as some of the parts of the track it becomes unnecessary noise. But without motion now, it does add something to bridge that gap. With the exciters doing most of the engine RPM work, I am free to use the larger unit for road effects and maybe even some low hz ABS or general deceleration forces. Would love an updated profile if there is one floating around especially for larger units.

Rod, does your Large LFE profile include any suspension effects? i do have it and I'm running the engine vibes to the Mini LFE's from it, with the Dayton's getting the effects from the exciters V pucks profile.

Will sort you with some past test effects friend but I currently have no tactile connected, also many of the effects sets are not exactly all organized. I worked on different things and ideas at different times the work is still not done but much so far has been learned or that I can take on board for future effects. Have a look in the Holy Moly BK Gamer thread as some simple effect profiles were done in there.

The problem with my own older workings is a folder with dozens of profiles I worked on I would need to go through these to pull out the better feeling or working layers that were done. However, with all this new audio gear and monitoring possibilities I will be doing new effects with my own build and sharing an in-depth look at each effect. I have a goal to get the new rig frame base section and seat-mounted by end of Jan.

Cant be sure it will happen as one supplier is out of clamps I need but progress is being made with my own build re-design.

 

[Mr Latte]

Why did you tire or go off motion?

 

[anton_Chez]

Too many issues with my USB inputs and stuff. I had enough of troubleshooting things that should just work and finally decided that the racing is more important. Which it always was, I just tolerated it to a point of becoming completely disillusioned with it. The number one thing that sim gear needs to be is reliable and the only thing the SFX build was reliable at was making my life a living hell and compromising the rest of my rig. I race 3-4 nights a week, competitively. I enjoy the racing. I love tactile, but even today driving without it for half hour, you get used to it. That said I'd like to think tactile is at least unobtrusive enough to always remain on my rig and ever since I started the journey into it all those years ago when we first spoke, it's been a valuable addition to my set up and one that has always given more than it's taken.

So I've listed the platform for sale, which is great for someone that, like me at the beginning, does not want to mess around with acquiring all the parts and doing the assembly themselves. I decided to use some of the potential funds I'll be coming into once it's gone to expand the tactile setup. Not that I was unhappy with what I have, but I thought I'd give a larger unit a try and see what can be achieved there. I don't intend to do much more than what I have just listed, but we'll see if adding another Earthquake unit is worthwhile once I get this lot sorted.

 

[Mr Latte]

Okay thanks for the clarification on your rig situation.
The MQB1 is not very big, the 500w rating maybe gives the impression its more powerful than it actually is.

Some have said it is better than the BK Mini and claims of it being the best small transducer for its size but not something I have compared. What you may find is that if you prefer it to the BK Mini then sell the BK and keep this for the pedals to later add a large BK to the seat.

 

[Sheepherd]

I think it is almost time to start a separate thread for those with exciters AND dual BK's so we can dive deeper into effect /profile creation. Not sure if that would better be placed here, or on the Simhub discord? Mr. Latte?

Hi Everyone. Long time lurker here who is just purchasing first tactile hardware and is very excited (pun intended). I for one am very interested in a thread for dual BKs and multiple exciters. I am new to sim racing having just purchased a rig but I've been planning to get into it for years and have been in and out of this thread many times as I've been thinking about what I want.

Ramble over , after contemplating this and many other threads I have just purchased the following:

1x BK Concert to mount under seat
1x NX3000D (for BK) signal from internal sound card
8x DAEX32EP-4 for mounting to the seat.
2x Douk M4 (for Exciters)
1x Startech 7.1 USB soundcard for exciters

The BK and NX3000D have just arrived so will hopefully be setting up in the next week or so. Would be great to have a group of people with similar HW to discuss setups and profiles etc as it seems daunting to start with. Although I do already have a Simhub license, I was thinking I'd start with running the BK via the LFE output in iRacing to get a baseline and move to Simhub to see how it differs and how profiles work. No idea if this is good or bad so open to suggestions. I hope to be able to give some feedback/assistance to people looking for a similar setup in the future once I have a better understanding.

Thanks