Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Jacob Marshall]

@wormsI will here is an older pic of the first rig
will update asap

the rig is running for over a year now and does what it is build for
it rolls (explantion in detail later)

the black profiles are made of a special wood plastic compound only the silver and the black profiles for the pedals are alu
This compound is less stiff so u can feel the vibration where the shaker is
and not everywhere.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sadly if I post here in the forum a special person most people know here feels called to explain what i am doing
and why he is doing better
this is boring and wasting time

my tipp is plz finish ur build and show us some results before u explain everyone here
what is best and why u are doing greater

the reason why i use a frame behind my seat is only to mount the horizontal double shaker for the engine effect ->mid engine and rear engine cars
+ make the seat stable + and let the rig roll (I can explain if u let me - but i fear someone else will try to explain this before .)

this frame is not meant to be mono or stereo it transfers a movement into the seat

every seat has 4 shakers direct mounted for stereo effects
they are clear because the seat has no upholstery .
they are not shown on the pic because i must make new pics

Hi Boern, the transducers on your pedals, do you get much bleed left<>right or do they provide distinct feedback?

I'm on an 80/20 with non-inverted pedals; looking for a way to isolate the pedals without over-engineering the build - I'm happy with good enough.

Also, what do you mean with 'roll'?

 

[boern69]

Hi jacob

this was the rig i built before

It was ok but compared to the wooden pvc rig it was really bad

even it was constructed like a double cross frame -> one cross under seat and one cross under feed

what is better than rectangular for isolating frequenices

I made 3 mistakes

1. made it o f alu -> much too stiff everthing is shakin
2. put the absorbers under it too much outside -> not allow to tilt or "roll"
3. use most effects of the shakers with more than 20HZ

so now

i use no alu but this

-----------------------------
I put the absorbers more too the middle to allow tilt / roll

rolling is tilt movement in the green direction for this u put the absorbers mor to the middle
violet is the force direction ->which changes / but while left is going down right is going up and visa versa
extramass at the shakers is blue -> the shakers are modified to go down under 20hz / 10 -20 hz feels much better and more
like a car
And this is the major point -the system feels like a car now

orange are the stereo shakers mounted to the seat ->these are the only shakers I use higher frequencies /bigge than 20
up to 80hz to simulate speed

--------------------------------------------------------------
shaker tuning
i made this together with fraunhofer institute they gave me tipps how to mount the mass to the bigger shaker

the smaller ones I put inside the front part they simulate breaking and the front wheels left and right down to 16 hz
outside was a little better to seperate left from right but
inside is ok as a compromise because as they were outside i injured my feet hitting them
and the difference is not so big imo

the big ones go down to 10hz now and make the LFE buttkicker obsolete if u use 2 of them instead 1 LFE
they only need a fraction of power but deliver good punch that saves power and power means costs on the other side

----------
@Mr Latte
thx ur critic is welcome but if u accept other solutions u will make faster and better progress in ur own build
and dont forget this build is less expensive

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi jacob


I put the absorbers more too the middle to allow tilt / roll

rolling is tilt movement in the green direction for this u put the absorbers mor to the middle
violet is the force direction ->which changes / but while left is going down right is going up and visa versa
extramass at the shakers is blue -> the shakers are modified to go down under 20hz / 10 -20 hz feels much better and more
like a car
And this is the major point -the system feels like a car now

orange are the stereo shakers mounted to the seat ->these are the only shakers I use higher frequencies /bigge than 20
up to 80hz to simulate speed

--------------------------------------------------------------
shaker tuning
i made this together with fraunhofer institute they gave me tipps how to mount the mass to the bigger shaker

the smaller ones I put inside the front part they simulate breaking and the front wheels left and right down to 16 hz
outside was a little better to seperate left from right but
inside is ok as a compromise because as they were outside i injured my feet hitting them
and the difference is not so big imo

the big ones go down to 10hz now and make the LFE buttkicker obsolete if u use 2 of them instead 1 LFE
they only need a fraction of power but deliver good punch that saves power and power means costs on the other side

----------
@Mr Latte
thx ur critic is welcome but if u accept other solutions u will make faster and better progress in ur own build
and dont forget this build is less expensive

Thanks for showing more images,
If you want to respond it would be appreciated. If not then that is fine but I try to understand better, can you tell us more?

Is the tilt, anyway based on your bodys/weight transfer with steering or primarily by the tactiles activity?

Seeing a video of it in operation might help as you haven't shared your effects or went into much detail about what effects you use for this? What settings for the effects are used, what Hz are they generating to each channel and is there a specific sim or track scenario you can highlight or find it works well with.

You have mentioned that one unit is going up as the other is going down.
As both units are installed upright. Did you then reverse the phase on one unit to achieve this?

As for accepting other solutions, well, Im not keen on modifying tactile to operate beyond their design but I've never experimented much with it. Although Ive not seen anyone do what youve done with adding weights to another approach in using mechanical leverage as a multiplier. Lastly, using a larger high energy unit like the Earthquake Q10B or BK LFE then boosting its output for the lowest Hz to +12 or more dB via suitable means. Thus pushing its generated output in amplitude for specific frequencies as well as using high wattages.

I dont know what amp or testing you have done with the LFE to form comparisons neither to these modified units. Some are going to query how you did comparisons, also then why not try the large LFE installed by using additional leverage as well as boosting its low Hz output via filtering in a crossover for high energy output of low Hz.


btw thanks for the tip...
Although, for my own build I would make faster and more progress if we did not have a pandemic, if certain parts I needed were not out of stock and if I didnt purchase additional as well as completely upgrade a lot of new audio hardware these recent months.

Further to this, as explained building a rig design, that is to contain/support 4x 12" subwoofers and 2 large 1mtr long,13kg soundbars was responsible for adding some additional complications. Requiring a bit of a rethink to the first frame build, that needed to be rectified with an improved design.

Some may mock the time my own build is taking, fair enough go ahead...
I can take it grin and smile.

 

[Barnbougle]

Hi, having read through most of your thread I find myself hooked by the concept of tactile feedback. I have taken advice from you and will install 1 x LFE and 4 x exciters. For now Phase 1 kit ex Santa has arrived:

LFE 1500 W
NX3000D

So I'm looking for advice for AMP Setup and Simhub

Screen shots of base line before I kick it tomorrow; feedback appreciated

Cheers and thanks in advance

 

[Barnbougle]

Hi, having read through most of your thread I find myself hooked by the concept of tactile feedback. I have taken advice from you and will install 1 x LFE and 4 x exciters. For now Phase 1 kit ex Santa has arrived:

LFE 1500 W
NX3000D

So I'm looking for advice for AMP Setup and Simhub

Screen shots of base line before I kick it tomorrow; feedback appreciated

Cheers and thanks in advanceView attachment 429660View attachment 429659
View attachment 429656View attachment 429657View attachment 429658

No need to respond as I found another thread which got me up and running, fantastic immersion , now to fine tune Happy Holidays

 

[Zolazem]

I got some money for Christmas and I want to spend it to my Rig.
After reading and searching this discussion I thinking of this:

2 x Buttkicker LFE or (or is the concert better?)

Behringer NX3000D
Before I was thinking of the Behringer NX4-6000 so I had two spare channels for future use but after research here I learned the NX4 had no DSP (actually I don’t know how important this is?)

i want to mount this to a simlab P1-X

Is this overall a good combination? Other suggestions will be very welcome.

 

[stigs2cousin]

So I´ve been reading and searching for some days now,
but havn´t found answers to some specific questions.
At least not the answers I hoped for.

Maybe you could point me in the right direction.

For starters:
I use a diy aluminium rig which is designed for rigidity with an (roadcar) recaro seat and the tripple monitors attached to the main hoop.
Wheelbase is a Simucube2 pro, pedals some Frankenstein T3PA pro with a stiff loadcell, brake and clutch inverted.

Plan is to start with 2 exciters, one under the seat and one under the heel rest of the pedals.
Both I want to isolate from the rest of the rig to not shake my monitors.

This i found in this thread, but now i´m asking myself why most mount their bassshaker to the profile the seat is mounted to?

Quote
Here's a photo showing the bottom of the seat:

View attachment 409660
End quote

I´d rather mount the shaker to the plastic seat base and isolate the whole seat from the rig.
Step two could be some exciters in the sides of the seat for stereo effects.

And regarding the pedals, first take I thought to just isolate the heelrest and ad an exciter to it,
maybe later add one to the brake pedal for ABS simulation.

Is there something that i´m missing?

And I´d like to drive the shakers with an 5.1 amp I already have, it does 80 watts at 4ohm per channel.
Is there a reason I can´t find mention of this possibility?

Any advice is welcome, thanks

MFG Carsten

 

[Wmacky]

I got some money for Christmas and I want to spend it to my Rig.
After reading and searching this discussion I thinking of this:

2 x Buttkicker LFE or (or is the concert better?)

Behringer NX3000D
Before I was thinking of the Behringer NX4-6000 so I had two spare channels for future use but after research here I learned the NX4 had no DSP (actually I don’t know how important this is?)

i want to mount this to a simlab P1-X

Is this overall a good combination? Other suggestions will be very welcome.

Good plan!

IMO, Unless you have tons of cash to dispose off, the best reasonable set up is just 2 large Buttkickers driven by a NX3000d.

Then for additional drivers, Just use exciters on the seatback. They will require much less expensive amps. I was shocked at how well the exciters work, but a couple big BK's are still needed for a few certain effects. I feel best placement for large BK's would be 1 at the pedal tray, and 1 mounted to the bottom of the seat.

 

[Zolazem]

Can anybody tell me or everything in the basket, the cable and connecter is okay for this setup?

And is this everything I need?

 

[Wmacky]

Looks ok

 

[Mr Latte]

Continued behind the scenes research and seeking to go beyond the norm, doing my own crazy thing.....

So, all my new hardware toys for audio/tactile need new software right?

2021 Upgrades:
Having already tried and looked at many options for monitoring and controlling audio.

This is what I am considering for 2021 that helps me see and learn what any audio source is doing.
The possibilities/options with audio metering/monitoring and control just went up a notch with the recent release of:

Steinberg Cubase 11 Pro - Super Supervision

Part of my own rigs goals will be to modify in real-time (Game Audio) from any PC or Console title.
As games do not offer individual effects, I have discovered the ability to be able to lock onto frequencies for (targeted effects) to then be able to duplicate/modify and output those for specific tactile or subwoofer usage or alter the sound of the game to my preference for either speaker or headpones. Some event effects in games may not always include the bass we need for them to feel great on tactile. So tools with specialist EQ or the ability to generate lower subharmonics in realtime can be applied. We can then output this to selected transducers or units for this role to bring something controlled but extra, not normally possible.

One currently explored example is being able to take the (Tyres) audio from ACC and manipulate that to offer more tactile bass response as it operates really well in stereo for each wheel over the front/rear channels. This is one thing that will be tested to help greatly increase stereo tactile activity that my own build seeks to accomplish. I don't want a motion rig to move me around but I want my tactile to generate as best possible vibrational feedback to translate what the car is doing via tactile.

I can also create from the 7.1 my own headphone mix, as I have learned how/what way different effects from the game use the various channels.

Just recently I was looking into ACC "Game Audio" to learn how it uses the different audio effects over 7.1
These (toys) let me visually see the frequencies but also how the games audio mix it uses places the different sounds on each channel. I found some surprises here from what I had originally expected too.

Here below, I monitor how stereo effects are output for (Tyres) but I can do the same with Simhub to determine exactly how generated effects (individual or grouped) are operating. It just would take time studying each effect and from that it lets me build improved effects by method and not just by assumptions or feel alone.

Monitoring game audio on every channel right down to 5Hz and with various tools.​

 

[Zolazem]

i can i use this cheap external sound card to feed a NX3000D with the same result then a more expensive one?

 

[Zolazem]

 

[Mr Latte]

Cheap options to consider below, which let you control upto 8 channels in Simhub from one card. Easy USB connection then cables you need to your amps.

Different regions should have some of the options below but I would expext these to be similar in performance or components used. This is not to say all soundcards are equal.

This USB 7.1

This USB 7.1

This USB 7.1

 

[Zolazem]

Cheap options to consider below, which let you control upto 8 channels in Simhub from one card. Easy USB connection then cables you need to your amps.

Different regions should have some of the options below but I would expext these to be similar in performance or components used. This is not to say all soundcards are equal.

This USB 7.1

This USB 7.1

This USB 7.1

Thank you, I ordered the StarTech

 

[ScreaminBejesus]

I have the StarTech 7.1 usb sound card. It works well.

 

[EddScott]

I got some money for Christmas and I want to spend it to my Rig.
After reading and searching this discussion I thinking of this:

2 x Buttkicker LFE or (or is the concert better?)

Behringer NX3000D
Before I was thinking of the Behringer NX4-6000 so I had two spare channels for future use but after research here I learned the NX4 had no DSP (actually I don’t know how important this is?)

i want to mount this to a simlab P1-X

Is this overall a good combination? Other suggestions will be very welcome.

I recently bought an NX3000D and still deciding on which 2 buttkickers to get.

I currently have 6 TT25 Daytons hooked up to an 8 channel amp. It's OK but just everything kind of vibrates rather than specific feelings for different situations.

One small question - is there a difference between shakers and exciters? I have Dayton TT25s - so these are shakers?

 

[Mr Latte]

Thank you, I ordered the StarTech

No problems, did you order only 1x SpeakON plug but buy 2x BK LFE?
@Callsign BH also appears to be another member going with a similar installation in 2021

Volume Tips With NX3000D:

As talking about soundcards, some will output at lower levels to others, I have had some past tests with owners using different cards with the idea of achieving balanced input/output levels for the amp and based on what sim may be used in Simhub. The idea is if most owners have fairly similar settings that are balanced then if sharing or experiencing Simhub effects they each create it helps in some ways to achieve similar felt sensations.

This is a common problem with tactile when people have so much varation with each users cockpit in how/where they have tactile installed, with or without isolation and using different models of transducers. The more we keep in common, then the more or better it makes for people to share and experience effects that should feel/work well on their own rigs.

Soundcard Settings / Large BK:
Good results were found by having the soundcard at 50%-60% with using then the knobs on the front of the 3000 NXD amp at 12pm-1pm positions. Doing this we seek to keep the soundcard output from coming into the amp as too hot and without distortion/clipping being a factor.

The dials on the amp increase the input signal that is already coming from the cards ourput. So you want to avoid having a soundcard at 100% and then the amps dials also cranked up higher.

The amps DSP also enables the "Output Level" to be controlled but unlike conventional amps and the reason these are recommended. Its simply that we can control the dB level for specific Hz as well as determine what Hz are only being generated by the tactile transducers.

Maybe if we have 2 or more newcomers to the forums going with similar hardware it will be interesting to have you guys share your own rigs and installations (in a specific thread) as we then help guide you with the amps features and use that as a place others can then come back to if going down a similar path.

 

[Mr Latte]

I recently bought an NX3000D and still deciding on which 2 buttkickers to get.

I currently have 6 TT25 Daytons hooked up to an 8 channel amp. It's OK but just everything kind of vibrates rather than specific feelings for different situations.

One small question - is there a difference between shakers and exciters? I have Dayton TT25s - so these are shakers?

If it helps.......

A) BKs and EarthQuake models use heavy pistons
B) Most budget types of transducers use conventional speaker technology
C) TST models use a specialist design with more powerful magnets in their upper range models
D) Exciter units come in various applications for creating sound from vibration
E) Others that may use different technologies or motors

These are all tactile transducers but using different design approaches in how/what range of frequencies they can output as well as the power/wattage they use. Piston based models require much more wattage and then need a minimum level of wattage to function/operate. Hence why the large BK are recommended on amps with over 400w per channel.

Typical transducers will start to operate with any wattage but are strongly recommended by manufacturers to be kept operating not above their rated specifications and rated ohms.

Exciters are like a speaker but without the speaker cone. They turn the surface they are attached to into a speaker.
We have experimented with these but doing so in making them operate like a transducer in that we restrict its audible frequencies (as a speaker) to generate only lower bass frequencies.

An example would be comparing Dayton's Puc to an Exciter err whats the difference?
For application usage here, the exciter unit can deliver a similar punch but it will deliver felt vibration far beyond and with more detail over the Dayton Puc. This can be particularly useful for some effects as we can get more fidelity and now we can feel harmonics in the 100-200Hz range that most transducers will not achieve. The other benefit with them is the ability to be able to place/install the unit direct to body regions which we cant do with other larger options.

* The downside with the recommended exciters, is they are less robust than Pucs.

 

[Zolazem]

I ended up ordering this cable instead of the separate cable and plug and cut it in half.

Thank you for all the information, when I’m lucky everything arrives tomorrow.
I want to install the first BK LFE below the seat and the second one below the pedals but dont know how to attach.