Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[blekenbleu]

My point is the mic showed is not intended to be used in the way you explain using it

Challenge accepted; found a cheaper contact mic source

 

[Mr Latte]

Challenge accepted; found a cheaper contact mic source

Go for it share what you find

Fun video:

I see people using them for audio/instruments not using such for data analysis or monitoring of audio frequencies.

Such could be used to take the sound from FFB motors in gamepads or those used by people with pedal motors via Simhub. To then use the motor/feedback as a source for additional transducers.

 

[FireWithin]

I also agree! dual large Bk's with a NX3000D is the path forward. I did vary slightly and went with a BK "Advance" at the pedal, and then the LFE at the seat. I think I'm OK, but we will see.

Then add in those Exciters, and small chip amps! How many of you are going to add these? I think it is almost time to start a separate thread for those with exciters AND dual BK's so we can dive deeper into effect /profile creation. Not sure if that would better be placed here, or on the Simhub discord? Mr. Latte?

I'm amazed how far behind the times some of the Youtubers are. In recent videos, they are still recommending 4 transducer chassis mode as top of the line. They need to research a little more!

I also went with that similar route (NX3000D, Big LFE under seat + smaller gamer2 at the pedals) and it all depends on the rig and shaker placement for how the energy is transfered but for me the bigger unit deliver so much more low Hz presence that I wont need 2 of them, one is plenty. (I will add one more gamer2 at the pedals)

Simhub is so much more intutive then simvibe software, 2 worlds appart IMO.
My life so much better now, also the original BK amp is a pieces of garbage.
Cant believe I endure all of that for more then 3 years now :S

Cheers

 

[BigBen_JM]

Hello all,

Let me introduce myself, my name is Joost and I live in the Netherlands. I used to have one of the first playseats (xbox360 days) but did not sim race after that. I am getting back into sim racing and as I had some money to spend I not only ordered a sim lab px1 (with fanatic clubsport stuff) but also the NX3000D together with 2 LFE's (one under the seat, one under the pedals). The rig is coming tomorrow and the buttkicker stuf later in the week.

I want to thank you all because just reading and consuming these forums have been a lot of fun already.

Tomorrow the real stuff starts (Rig build) and I hope to add to the discussion on these forums in the long run (lots of stuff to find out first)

again, thanks to everyone who supplied me with knowledge these last 2 weeks (eg. Mr Latte)

Thanks

J

 

[blekenbleu]

share what you find

Sensor 20-pack arrived from Amazon 3 days after ordering; ~ 10mm diameter:

Larger ones may be more sensitive,
but these will be easy to mount e.g. on pedals and steering hub..
@ US 26 cents, they can be considered consumables.
Previous audio work mostly employed macOS; still sorting Windows 10 Sound limitations.
An old faithful of Windows sound card oscilloscope software is Winscope, but:

• obsolete help file format cannot be easily used in Windows 10 or 8.1
• seemingly lacks input flexibility; perhaps uses default source, but has not worked for me (3 sound cards, including VR HMD)

Visual Analyzer is working better:

• selectable input
• simultaneous XY and spectral displays

Downloaded the bare .exe works, but excludes help file bundled in setup..
Other Windows software oscilloscopes may be easier;
I would have next tried Soundcard Oscilloscope.

Dayton Thruster is due tomorrow;
first accelerometer experiments will compare it to rumble motor (farewell!)

 

[Mr Latte]

@blekenbleu

So I am assuming you will try to compare frequencies being generated from the soundcard to then compare that to what the piezo pick up from a surface or object?

I still dont quite grasp what the end goal is or how you use whatever data this offers or how accurate it may be? Still fascinated though....

I have been interested to determine how exciters or small transducers like the Puc compare to the FFB motors as would like to understand better in Hz what those motors typically generate or if any application from them can bring something we cant do with transducers.

Keeping an eager eye on your findings

 

[stigs2cousin]

I´m very interested in your findings, this dayton thruster would fit well behind my brake pedal.

It will probably not be able to make the "pedal dance" like real life ABS does with the brake pedal but could provide good feedback.
From the data I assume it could be powered by a somewhat capable 5.1 receiver?

MFG Carsten

 

[blekenbleu]

So I am assuming you will try to compare frequencies being generated from the soundcard to then compare that to what the piezo pick up from a surface or object?

Eventually, but monitoring soundcard out on one channel and mic in on another
appears beyond the flexibility of Visual Analyzer.
The first exercise (rumble motor vs Dayton Thruster) is mostly a familiarity run,
so far as contact mic is concerned. The swap was happening, but piezos arrived first.

In fact, I am curious how [non]linear is soundcard out vs mic in from exciter.
I have a fair amount of experience comparing perceptions to data for audio, video
and still image quality; this seems a "natural" extension...

I'll also try using scope software to demonstrate that issue of signal saturation
which you mentioned when running e.g. 100% digital gain.

I´m very interested in your findings, this dayton thruster would fit well behind my brake pedal.

Yes, if it fits behind my G29 pedal, it should do on most others..
Eliminating USB dongle for rumble motor is another plus.

It will probably not be able to make the "pedal dance" like real life ABS does with the brake pedal but could provide good feedback.

On the contrary, I expect it capable of more ABS vibe than in my BMW track cars,
but actually hope to (alternatively) find something that helps proxy
unassisted disc brake feel. I was much happier with brake feel on my old Alfa GTV
after removing its vacuum booster... Real non-power brake feedback
is more than just force vs deflection.
An exciter directly behind the brake pedal pad should not require much power,
but use an old yard sale Denon AVR-3803, rated 110 Wpc, well beyond Thruster's.

 

[anton_Chez]

Got all my connectors, amp and MQB-1 delivered this week, now to wire it all up and get tuning again. BUT....

I have a feeling I am going to get a better result if I use the BK Mini's that I was going to sell, in place of the exciters on the seat. So I already have the Earthquake mounted to the bottom of the seat, replacing one Mini LFE. I was going to remove the pedal tray one as well, sell them both off and just use the MQB-1 under the seat for suspension and road effect type effects and the exciters for the engine vibes. However, I feel like since I already have them, I am better off moving the Mini I removed to the rear of the seat, bolted directly on, even if it means putting holes there that I really didn't want to to. Because I know how much more I can feel with it being directly in contact with me, I was going to remove the pedal tray Mini LFE completely because I get this sort of buzz that tingles my feet with the hz that it uses. However, I think if I move it closer to the seat, still on the 8020 frame but closer, and maybe isolate it a bit with the pads, this might be a better alternative. PLUS, if I move engine vibes OFF of that unit, the buzz won't be an issue.

So overall, I was thinking of moving the engine vibes to the Earthquake, single unit directly under the seat, and moving road and suspension effects to the 2 Mini LFE's, one at the rear of the seat and one sort of under my knees instead of being right up the top of the pedal tray. Should give more feeling AND I would be able to assign front to back suspension effects. Removing the exciters completely since I don't use them for stereo effects anyway AND the Earthquake unit will destroy them for engine vibes.

Final plan would be 1 x MQB-1 running from the NX1000D and 2 x Mini LFE running from one existing SMSL amp in stereo config.

The only thing I'd love to instead of that, would be to somehow run them all off the one amp. However to get stereo suspension effects on the Mini's I'd need a 4 channel amp. As running them in whatever hacked together solution from the single remaining channel on the NX1000D would make them operate identically.

The exciters were a good experiment, but with 1 x MQB-1 and 2 x BK MIni LFE's on hand with ample channels and power, it makes the most sense to me.

 

[Mr Latte]

I think you're missing the point of combining BK piston/type units with the exciters.
One benefit is re-looking at having low bass and mid-high bass frequency usage splitting some effects to multiple units.

Go ahead test your Earthquake or BK Mini between 80-200Hz to feel what little finer detailing they offer. Some would be interested on your own views/findings of comparing the BK Mini to the smaller Earthquake.

Low bass travels more through the seat so it can be harder to pin-point it on any specific body regions. I had shared ways to use profile (or in my case) steel tubing extensions to then help route low bass energy from a large BK to also go into targeted areas like shoulder/back regions.

Few if anyone is doing that to experiment with a seat.

Exciters placed at body regions let you get directional feedback direct from several locations.
Then also increase the number of effects you can have operating at one time as you can reduce the number of effects to individual units or give them specific roles. These points, all limiting factors for standard installs.

Lastly, the exciters placed correctly give the ability to shift effects from one unit to another using some advanced effect settings. You cant do those type of things with units attached in conventional ways man. Or limiting effects created/output to the individual operating specs/performances of singular individual units.

As stated many times, no single unit can offer the ideal 1-200Hz bass range, it requires this type of approach and RPM is one of the effects that will benefit the most from it due to the generated harmonics going well beyond in frequency what piston based units operate best with. This isn't an assumption, its fact-based on knowing what the generated frequencies are and using a combination of transducers/exciters that can then best represent those frequency bands.

You have the amp now, time to consider selling the 2x Minis to move up to the larger BK and experience the better low bass you've never had.

Pedal Buzz?
The "Buzz" in your feet may be peak Hz reverberating at the pedals and with DSP based Parametric EQ that would easily be detectable with frequency sweep tests to determine what Hz was causing the issue. Then we reduce the dB amplitude of those few culprit frequencies while not reducing the detail or output of others. This is part of the tuning benefits DSP brings.

 

[The One Demon]

Hey guys, I'm planning to use 6x Dayton BST-1s to my aluminium extrusion cockpit... I have seen a few guys use these or similar amps to run them (Don't need an additional sound card with these through USB either) https://www.amazon.com.au/gp/product/B08G4YB5VP/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1FU2BVG2P07N5&psc=1

I'm wondering if anyone can recommend that, or any other amps for preferably no more than $100 AUD for 2 channels at 100w each?

I've also found this too - https://djcity.com.au/product/skytec-spl300-power-amp/

Edit - There is also this option too that seems good. https://djcity.com.au/product/behringer-epq304-power-amp/

 

[Mr Latte]

Plenty of info on these forums if you look or search as often such topics come up.
For value, this is a great option for budget tactile and powering 4x 50w shakers in a small compact box.

I remember, years ago having a Skytec amp that caught fire powering a BK Advance
Kinda put me off them.

The EPQ304 is not a bad amp, solid build and rack-mountable but like various pro-audio amps it has quite noisey fans. These can be replaced as shown at some stage/somewhere on the forums.

Lots of people fall into the Wattage Trap of more = best?
They think having an amp at 200W for 50W transducers is a good combination. This is an easy way to overdrive the transducer and in all honesty, no unit will perform or feel at its best when it is constantly being driven to its max rated usage.


Simhub & Multiple (Same Card USB)
Confirming that my 2nd SoundBlaster X3 (7.1 USB) soundcard works fine with Simhub.
No apparent driver issues or problems.

 

[anton_Chez]

Hey guys, I'm planning to use 6x Dayton BST-1s to my aluminium extrusion cockpit... I have seen a few guys use these or similar amps to run them (Don't need an additional sound card with these through USB either) https://www.amazon.com.au/gp/product/B08G4YB5VP/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1FU2BVG2P07N5&psc=1

I'm wondering if anyone can recommend that, or any other amps for preferably no more than $100 AUD for 2 channels at 100w each?

I've also found this too - https://djcity.com.au/product/skytec-spl300-power-amp/

Edit - There is also this option too that seems good. https://djcity.com.au/product/behringer-epq304-power-amp/

I have 6 exciters / pucks I have taken off my rig just yesterday and am about to put them on ebay. I see that the listing you linked is au, are you in Australia? If so, and you want an exciter setup, I can pack these up for you and do a deal with you. Might save you a few bucks and save me having to sell them off one or two at a time.

I have an amp too, but it's only a 2 channel amp. Probably better off buying that 4 channel amp and grabbing 4 of the 40W DAEX32EP-4 I have here, which are the better option for exciters in my and I think Mr Latte's opinion as well. I've got a couple of the 20W variety as well, they are not exactly the same but they helped round out my seat. 2 top back, 2 lower back, 2 sides.

 

[anton_Chez]

So I connected up the NX1000D today, with the corrects plugs and stuff. I cannot get any signal to the Earthquake unit, at all. I've checked the SpeakOn plug is wired correctly, +1 and -1 are connected to negative and positive. I have the XLR adapters to convert the RCA plugs into the amp. I've played with the Dual, Stereo, etc options in the settings. I don't get anything at all.

Wire it back up to one of my SMSL amps, works fine.

So I'm thinking, I already do not like this amp as it is. It's MASSIVE, makes a **** tonne of noise, and I am only using it for one unit, which in itself isn't as powerful as I first was led to believe. I was actually going to buy the big BK LFE model until some comments in tactile threads convinced me that this was the best way to go. Since I now have a spare 2 channel 160W SMSL lying around, I am thinking I just use that to power the single unit and get rid of this NX1000D, either sell it or try and return it. I have no interest in the DSP functions as Simhub does all of that and I am NOT messing with audio + Simhub tactile as that was already a fruitless experiment, twice.

So, thoughts on why this amp is not giving me any signal at all? Also, I have bridged the Earthquake connection on the SMSL amp. I read somewhere that the amp is bridgeable but I am not completely certain on that. It works, but it gives signal on both channels when testing in Simhub, is that normal? I've only ever really bridged sub woofers on car audio setups and that was a WHILE ago so I am out of the loop with this stuff.

Thanks for any thoughts in advance.

 

[Mr Latte]

So I connected up the NX1000D today, with the corrects plugs and stuff. I cannot get any signal to the Earthquake unit, at all. I've checked the SpeakOn plug is wired correctly, +1 and -1 are connected to negative and positive. I have the XLR adapters to convert the RCA plugs into the amp. I've played with the Dual, Stereo, etc options in the settings. I don't get anything at all.

Wire it back up to one of my SMSL amps, works fine.

So I'm thinking, I already do not like this amp as it is. It's MASSIVE, makes a **** tonne of noise, and I am only using it for one unit, which in itself isn't as powerful as I first was led to believe. I was actually going to buy the big BK LFE model until some comments in tactile threads convinced me that this was the best way to go. Since I now have a spare 2 channel 160W SMSL lying around, I am thinking I just use that to power the single unit and get rid of this NX1000D, either sell it or try and return it. I have no interest in the DSP functions as Simhub does all of that and I am NOT messing with audio + Simhub tactile as that was already a fruitless experiment, twice.

So, thoughts on why this amp is not giving me any signal at all? Also, I have bridged the Earthquake connection on the SMSL amp. I read somewhere that the amp is bridgeable but I am not completely certain on that. It works, but it gives signal on both channels when testing in Simhub, is that normal? I've only ever really bridged sub woofers on car audio setups and that was a WHILE ago so I am out of the loop with this stuff.

Thanks for any thoughts in advance.

Big Numbers But Not So Big Eh?
You seem a tad annoyed or a bit disappointed about the smaller Earthquake and that indeed the 500W rating, gives perhaps some a false indication of its capabilities. I tried to help but you purchased the unit before asking for advice here and purchased by your own admission based on advice from other forums/people. Curious what they were saying?

Now, that's not to say it isn't a good option compared to the BK Mini or BK Advance but it is certainly not in the same performance ballpark as its own bigger brother in the Q10B or the largest BK models. Which I tried to highlight to you.

Test Tool
It would be appreciated at some point if you offer your own comparisons to the BK Mini you have owned for a while as others may see it as an option to consider as an alternative. I have shared this for owners of the BK Gamer but perhaps you can use such to compare the BK Mini to the Earthquake and give a report on that here at some point?

Unfortunate that you seem to be going against advice on combining excellent performing low bass units with the exciters. So, limiting the performance your rig tactile has, being restricted by a single unit's specifications.

It's your rig, so the choice is of course yours. Several people on the forums have the recommended combination, several others are interested in going with it. Those that do will benefit from effects that can be created to make use of the combination and offer both the best low bass to the highest harmonic detailing for improved immersion.

Exciters can also be used solely for "Game Audio" roles, we do not necessarily need to create a mix for a unit to operate with both telemetry/game audio-based tactile. Other forum members have used them in this way or TST units to introduce some benefits that this offers. Mainly feeling each cars, engine character is a favorite implementation that cant be achieved with Simhub or Simvibe.

Yet really tactile is all about discovering and finding your own personal preferences.


Comments / Amp Issues:
I get you may be frustrated too at this point, but let's clear up some points you made...

The amp is a standard 19" rack amp, the fans on many pro-audio amps can be loud but can be easily replaced. These are points that are well documented on here. So why are you surprised?

I have no interest in the DSP functions as Simhub does all of that

If you don't have any interest that's up to you and your choice if you ignore its benefits...

Please STOP misinforming others by saying things about Simhub features and DSP that are far from being accurate. If you want and disagree then feel free to show people here how your claim is valid?

They are not even close man.
Simhub only offers a basic crossover but I doubt most here could even say what -dB per octave it uses or what that even means. Nor can you select/apply different crossovers to suit your own hardware or preference.

In fairness with different DSP hardware/software options, they can vary in what they do offer.
DSP is widely used in many forms of audio installations/applications including car and home cinema audio. Why, well simply because of its tuning and control benefits. It does require learning how to use it but even this is not that difficult as it is mainly trial and error based.


Anyways back to your issues...

Amp Settings?
You do not show any of the DSP screens the amp uses to let us see the current settings for A/B channels
So without these and info on the current settings is hard to confirm some things.

Cables
RCA - XLR
Show what cable/adapter you purchased is this at fault?

 

[anton_Chez]

I think you misunderstand where I'm coming from based on a lot of that response. I'm not interested in going down the rabbit hole again for tactile. I've unbolted and listed my motion platform for sale, for simplicity and reliability. I race. A lot. I don't have time to endlessly tweak things that I just want to work while I race. I didn't give advice, of any kind, to anyone. I simply stated what I didn't like about the path I recently went down and the feedback I had worked from when looking to add one large unit to my rig with motion being a thing of the past.

The amp is running out of the box. I've touched nothing. I would have left it that way, had I gotten a response from the unit attached to it. I don't. I've only played with the output screen. It shows DUAL, STEREO, BRIDGE and 2 BI-AMP options. I would have thought regular stereo output option would have sufficed to get some feedback from the unit. Only one channel is connected. The SpeakOn plug seems wired fine, and I've swapped the RCA plugs into either XLR adapter to make sure I didn't have them the wrong way around for whatever reason. None of that worked.

That is the adapter. Nothing fancy. Plugs into the amp fine and has the RCA input on the rear, one for each adapter. I'm not sure what screen settings you'd need to see. I've touched nothing. It's all stock. Surely the DSP stuff is disabled out of the box?

I had a BK LFE in my cart at Parts Express, there were a few restocked ones going for a bit cheaper so I thought it would be a good chance to try one seeing as I was removing motion. For whatever reason I was led to believe that the EQ unit was one of the better units to buy. Seeing the power output and knowing the Mini LFE is HALF that, I assumed the unit would have offered a sizeable jump in feedback compared to what I had with a lower hz response.

Anyway, long story short, can't get the amp to fire up the MQB-1 and am overall frustrated that nothing ever just works out of the box. Spent 2 days trying to get my G1 Reverb to play with my new GPU. I've barely played a game and I got it on Thursday!

 

[EsxPaul]

@anton_Chez Have you tried going back over your basic Windows speaker configuration and soundcard settings?

I'm wondering if it might be something as basic as your chosen audio output device not being selected as the default or perhaps the 3.5mm jack being in the wrong output port.

 

[anton_Chez]

That might make sense if simply swapping the RCA's to the other amp didn't work either. But it does.

 

[Mr Latte]

You were asked to show the amp settings, just to determine what the amp was set at.
The amp uses (smartsense) so can detect different ohm . Yes you would think connecting up should of had some response. It is odd but are we not trying to determine the fault?

The DSP software also shows "input meter" and "output meter" signals.
If youd stop and listen, we could at least establish if an input is coming in with those crappy adapters you bought and the RCA cables.

Input / Output Meters
LOOK

I didn't give advice, of any kind, to anyone.

BTW nobody said you were giving advice, what was questioned was the advice you were given about the Earthquake and your own perspective views on Simhub / DSP being totally inaccurate.

 

[Benzaah]

I have 6 exciters / pucks I have taken off my rig just yesterday and am about to put them on ebay. I see that the listing you linked is au, are you in Australia? If so, and you want an exciter setup, I can pack these up for you and do a deal with you. Might save you a few bucks and save me having to sell them off one or two at a time.

I have an amp too, but it's only a 2 channel amp. Probably better off buying that 4 channel amp and grabbing 4 of the 40W DAEX32EP-4 I have here, which are the better option for exciters in my and I think Mr Latte's opinion as well. I've got a couple of the 20W variety as well, they are not exactly the same but they helped round out my seat. 2 top back, 2 lower back, 2 sides.

ill be keen on those and im in adelaide. sorry it wont allow me to pm this message, its saying im a spambot LOL. regards Benzah.