Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Redload]

Quick question, my apologies if it’s already been covered (this thread is quite extensive) but I’m looking for a more “plug and play“ solution for 4 BK mini-LFE’s in chassis mode. Would this amp be a good solution https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0CHU

If not, is there an alternative for a straight forward solution? id rather not go down the multi amp route if possible.

 

[Mr Latte]

That amp will work but it has much more power than needed. You can get small amps that can power Mini BK and then use 2 which would still be much smaller in required size than the amp you are looking at.


With the BK Mini you want around 100w but its better to have an amp with a bit more capacity to then keep the amp operating constantly well below its max output.

These have been used by lots of sim racers for MiniBK for years and are tiny in size but offering 2x160w with the Bk Mini Lfe (4ohm) units. Available worldwide but other similar options are also available.

When you try to drive the Mini BK hard the piston pang issue becomes more likely to happen, even though they are rated with 250w wattage. We have a rather strong output of low frequencies with tone generated software options with more constant low frequencies than typical game audio.

Let me ask you these questions as 3 other people recently were considering a similar 4 way installation.

Give us an idea on the total cost with cables this will be for your own current ideas?
What are your reasons for wanting 4 way installation?
What type of rig do you have?
How are you going to install the units and what extra costs will this add with plates or isolation?

 

[Redload]

Thank you for your thoughts Mr Latte.

In answer to your questions I figure that the cost with cables etc to be around £8/900 but to be honest I’ve been considering which upgrade to make for a little while and have drawn the conclusion that tactile feedback is probably one of the most important upgrades to immersion that can be made. More so than motion (imho I’ve not seen anything that gets close to actually creating g forces etc) I know this is probably blasphemy in some sim circles but when I’m driving in real life I’m not being thrown around the car even with spirited driving but I and acutely aware of the road surface etc. This is a long winded way of saying cost isn’t the primary concern.

I must confess though that I am a total novice in respect to tactile feedback however I imagined 1bk on each corner of the rig to be the most realistic positioning? I have a Trakracer tr160 profile rig with integrated quad monitor mount (which was going to lead to further questions regarding isolation/ vibration through the mount). I have a fabricator near me who will make me small horizontal plates that mount directly on to the rig relatively cheaply.

 

[Mr Latte]

Thank you for your thoughts Mr Latte.

In answer to your questions I figure that the cost with cables etc to be around £8/900 but to be honest I’ve been considering which upgrade to make for a little while and have drawn the conclusion that tactile feedback is probably one of the most important upgrades to immersion that can be made. More so than motion (imho I’ve not seen anything that gets close to actually creating g forces etc) I know this is probably blasphemy in some sim circles but when I’m driving in real life I’m not being thrown around the car even with spirited driving but I and acutely aware of the road surface etc. This is a long winded way of saying cost isn’t the primary concern.

I must confess though that I am a total novice in respect to tactile feedback however I imagined 1bk on each corner of the rig to be the most realistic positioning? I have a Trakracer tr160 profile rig with integrated quad monitor mount (which was going to lead to further questions regarding isolation/ vibration through the mount). I have a fabricator near me who will make me small horizontal plates that mount directly on to the rig relatively cheaply.

The reason I was asking is that if we are talking about £1000 approx if by the time you get plates and taking into account maybe some isolation materials. It's quite a bit of money to spend and something for that money you'd expect to get great performance from.

Ultimately it's your money and your choice...
I can offer advice based on personal experiences from testing and when taking into account what I know regards stereo tactile-based effects (from what I see in the audio monitoring) and how on most rigs doing typical installations. I have to question if having 4x BK Mini is a better immersion experience than dual larger BK with 1 in seat and 1 in pedals.

Stereo Issues?
I believe on most rigs the majority of people are going to find it hard to feel independent bumps from 4 units as their cockpit installations easily let the left/right energy mix.

Stereo crosstalk is more of a problem with lower bass frequencies and here we compound part of the problem. These have more bass bandwidth and in effects creation, you can get better stereo with the larger units and how they output frequencies below 20Hz over smaller units. However, with this extra energy these frequencies have and also using much higher wattages on the large BK. Then the spill of L/R going into each other is even greater with typical installations.

This is why I have spent a lot of time working on a custom build to try and achieve not just super low bass but maintaining it much better regards stereo separation.

Looking at most 8020 profile cockpits offered, none are doing anything to help with this scenario I talk about as none really are built around tactile performance being a design factor.

So what we have is a trade-off in how well the stereo will be felt with 4x smaller units to using the larger BK and those providing you with the best low bass response from various effects. Yes, the larger units can be much better than what the Mini units can offer but (if you are wanting tactile in the pedals and the seat) the larger units would be my recommendation.

Adding Stereo Later?
It's possible to focus on applying stereo sensations with additional exciters in the seat and possibly pedal stems.

I have made similar recommendations to at least 3 other people recently.

Compare in your pricing the following:
2x BK LFE
1x NX 3000D
1x SpeakON Cable (long enough and cut in half)
1x 3.5mm - Stereo Male XLR cable

 

[Zolazem]

No problems, did you order only 1x SpeakON plug but buy 2x BK LFE?
@Callsign BH also appears to be another member going with a similar installation in 2021

Volume Tips With NX3000D:

As talking about soundcards, some will output at lower levels to others, I have had some past tests with owners using different cards with the idea of achieving balanced input/output levels for the amp and based on what sim may be used in Simhub. The idea is if most owners have fairly similar settings that are balanced then if sharing or experiencing Simhub effects they each create it helps in some ways to achieve similar felt sensations.

This is a common problem with tactile when people have so much varation with each users cockpit in how/where they have tactile installed, with or without isolation and using different models of transducers. The more we keep in common, then the more or better it makes for people to share and experience effects that should feel/work well on their own rigs.

Soundcard Settings / Large BK:
Good results were found by having the soundcard at 50%-60% with using then the knobs on the front of the 3000 NXD amp at 12pm-1pm positions. Doing this we seek to keep the soundcard output from coming into the amp as too hot and without distortion/clipping being a factor.

The dials on the amp increase the input signal that is already coming from the cards ourput. So you want to avoid having a soundcard at 100% and then the amps dials also cranked up higher.

The amps DSP also enables the "Output Level" to be controlled but unlike conventional amps and the reason these are recommended. Its simply that we can control the dB level for specific Hz as well as determine what Hz are only being generated by the tactile transducers.

Maybe if we have 2 or more newcomers to the forums going with similar hardware it will be interesting to have you guys share your own rigs and installations (in a specific thread) as we then help guide you with the amps features and use that as a place others can then come back to if going down a similar path.

Good evening,

I installed everything today.

I'm ATM setting everything up but i have no idea where to start and i'm a liitle affraid to blow something up. I watched to other other thread and there is much information, but i cannot find the base setup of the nx3000d with 2 LFE's

Is it possible to damage something with wrong settings?

Mode must be Dual or stereo?
What is base low and high pass filter to start with?

Any other setting that are important to start with?

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi, stay calm
See the first post of this thread I added a link to a previous thread I helped someone understand the NXD amps menus and settings.

Some other help here regards trying some options with the crossover and creating different curves.
These let you determine the dB output of specific frequencies over the range the crossover is being set to.

 

[Redload]

I really appreciate your help Mr Latte. I see where you are coming from, I’ll take your advice and go with larger units and mount them as you suggest.

 

[Zolazem]

I really appreciate your help Mr Latte. I see where you are coming from, I’ll take your advice and go with larger units and mount them as you suggest.

I received the same setup today: NX3000D + 2 BK LFE. First impressions are really good with only base settings in amp + default profile in simhub (Game: RaceRoom)

 

[Atak_Kat]

@Redload ,
I also recommend to go for the larger LFE. And the NX3000D.

Personally I got 2x BK Mini's and the NX1000D. They were fun for a while but they simply did not have the power I was assuming. So not long after I got a BK Concert LFE. So now I have that on one channel (directly to the bottom of my seat) and one of the BK mini's under my heel rest. I find it quite good.

In retrospect, I should have got the NX3000D, simply because it was only 20 euros more and has more power for the bigger LFEs. And I would have been very happy just with one larger LFE, and nothing on the heel rest.

Personally, things I've learned:
- I do not understand the whole 'chassis' mode and 4 corners thing, unless you get quite advanced with the whole adventure. For some, it's the holy grail. For me, honestly, I cannot really feel the corners as they say. Especially with a rigid frame like the P1X. That doesn't mean it's not true, just that I could not really perceive any difference and wasn't interested to go too crazy.
- I have my Concert LFE directly mounted to the bottom of my seat (Sparco fibreglass seat). Works great and all the vibration goes right to you.
- Personally, I found that having a BK Mini underneath my heel rest was enough (mine is separate from the pedal deck, mounted just in front of it). Lots of people have the entire pedal deck vibrating, but I found that just focusing it on the heel rest was more than enough. I found it far better than trying to vibrate the entire pedal deck itself. Also, no issues with the pedals flexing under hard brake pressure (from the mounts, which is usually where people put the isolation)
- When BKs are mounted around the frame, just know that with rigid rigs (like the P1X), they can send vibrations everywhere. Sometimes I wonder if it just becomes noise. And it can be important if you have other things mounted direct to your rig (in my case, my big 49" CRG9 is direct mounted, so I don't really want too many vibrations rattling that thing around too much.)
- Even if you can't get perfect isolation as many will give advice on, even a bit helps. Even if just to limit/reduce the vibrations going around too much on a rigid rig. Of course there are many ways to do this, but simple things can be good-enough and better than nothing.
- The software to control/adjust the NX 'D' amps helps a lot to tune things up a bit. It's not the best software, and has a few glitches, but it works, and is far easier than trying to adjust things on the amp itself. No question the 'D' amps and ability to control with a USB connection make things much easier to understand and adjust.
- SimHub is an absolute awesome piece of software. Start there for free, and then when you realize how good it is, make a donation....

 

[Wmacky]

I also agree! dual large Bk's with a NX3000D is the path forward. I did vary slightly and went with a BK "Advance" at the pedal, and then the LFE at the seat. I think I'm OK, but we will see.

Then add in those Exciters, and small chip amps! How many of you are going to add these? I think it is almost time to start a separate thread for those with exciters AND dual BK's so we can dive deeper into effect /profile creation. Not sure if that would better be placed here, or on the Simhub discord? Mr. Latte?

I'm amazed how far behind the times some of the Youtubers are. In recent videos, they are still recommending 4 transducer chassis mode as top of the line. They need to research a little more!

 

[Mr Latte]

We need a more dedicated section within the hardware forums for tactile and audio topics.
That may be granted in the near future and yeah this thread goes all over the place.

Yes, things could indeed be better arranged and info shared or (getting started guides) covering the most often asked/repeated questions being more easily found. Some individual topics for threads perhaps would also be good and an updated cable guide.

My own rig build thread will be my main focus this incoming year. However, reduced income and job security with the unknown of what 2021 will bring, looms in the distance as a concern.

I do want to begin to share the progress of this latest build I have already started and its taking shape having overcome some issues with the previous design. So maybe I can offer regular updates on it as an ongoing journey in its own place? It's likely within that I will blabber on about some effect ideas and look more deeply (self-interest) into effects. So it should offer some interest to some. I want to further test/experiment with and share some ideas on effects as well as have a deeper conversation with others to find out what they like or use in effects.

I do believe we can achieve better and much more from tactile, than what most people are getting from it.

 

[Atak_Kat]

Does anyone know if you can send signals to a BK (a single one) that would concentrate the vibrations in one direction or the other? Example, a signal that tell the BK to give more 'upward' effect. And then a separate signal that would tell it to give more 'downward' effect.

Or are they limited simply to the vibration frequency with no ability to concentrate the effect in one direction or the other?

 

[Mr Latte]

Does anyone know if you can send signals to a BK (a single one) that would concentrate the vibrations in one direction or the other? Example, a signal that tell the BK to give more 'upward' effect. And then a separate signal that would tell it to give more 'downward' effect.

Or are they limited simply to the vibration frequency with no ability to concentrate the effect in one direction or the other?

Interesting question, can you give more indication on an effective example or usage case scenario you would want to replicate?

Perhaps suspension?

I am curious as still waiting on @boern69 to give more information as to how his rig uses L/R units to produce the tilt his rig is based on. He described one unit going up as the other goes down. I don't quite know from that what he means. Has he discovered something? I hope he shares more about it.

Spoiler: Me Blabbering

My own limited understanding is that with transducers like speakers/subs we can reverse the phase which alters the timing of one unit to another. So as a speakers cone/piston or units action is moving out/up on one unit it is moving in/down on the other. This has a reaction with the soundwaves being generated in the air or in our case materials the vibrations travel through.

By reversing the phase, IIRC you then can have cancellation of the generated soundwaves nodes/antinodes when any frequencies the same are generating on both units (that are out of phase) at the same time. One may cancel out the other. I too, am learning all the time and this is one subject matter I do want to cover in my own build, based on my own findings from tests. Yet I need and want to do more exploration to learn from our real-world usage scenario we are applying here and not just by theories.

To try to monitor vibrations in actual materials (accurately) requires specialist hardware that is expensive. I was even quoted £900 for a single sensor that works with iPad and is used by professionals as an industrial level calibration tool. I'm not that keen to spend that and I'm not qualified to even use such properly.

Phase Cancellation
This is something I will however be able to monitor at least from the (source) "effects creation" perspective.
Whats happening on the output of all the combined frequencies being applied to the channel?

With different effects and timings happening, I will be able to see this using the audio hardware/software I have invested into. Mainly to try to understand better if/when it happens by applying multiple layers or multiple effects on the same output. It will let me see what frequencies such is happening with from realtime output of the generated effects. This is also I believe (possibly) one of the factors concerning "less is more" with effects as some effects being generated cancel out others or that the transducer struggles to generate them all? My assumption is with such available tools I can discover how to avoid having effects conflict with each other to help improve the felt sensations. We can learn what effects to not group on the same channels and use this data to improve tactile profiles.


Personally, I don't believe trying to use tactile as a way to replicate controlled motion would be in any way accurate. I have seen rigs on springs and other solutions but hey I am willing to be proved wrong by others sharing what they have learned or done. In this as an example with "suspension", my views are that.....

We are representing the positional activity of suspension "bump vibration" from low to high energy responses using different frequencies and dB, not necessarily "suspension travel" and accurately converting it somehow via frequencies and vibration to then produce motion.

We can however with Simhub have effects seemingly move from one channel to another. Doing this by using different activity thresholds, delay, and giving a sensation for an effect moving from the location of one unit to others.

 

[cfischer9009]

Does anyone know if you can send signals to a BK (a single one) that would concentrate the vibrations in one direction or the other? Example, a signal that tell the BK to give more 'upward' effect. And then a separate signal that would tell it to give more 'downward' effect.

Or are they limited simply to the vibration frequency with no ability to concentrate the effect in one direction or the other?

Can you hold a rock in your hand an move it up and down while concentrating the force in one direction? The only way I could think of to do this is to hurry up when your going, say, up. Then slow down when your going down. This is possible to do with an audio signal (tactile) but its pretty uncommon and its not going to come from any game like that. You would probably have to program this from a microcontroller or something similar.
Would probably be better to do this mechanically. Create a mount that is softer in one direction than the other.

Like mr latte says, why?

 

[cfischer9009]

I am curious as still waiting on @boern69 to give more information as to how his rig uses L/R units to produce the tilt his rig is based on. He described one unit going up as the other goes down. I don't quite know from that what he means. Has he discovered something? I hope he shares more about it.

Looks straight forward enough. He has shakers spread out and in opposite phase in mono to create a torsional vibration that is additive. What's the big deal?

 

[Mr Latte]

Looks straight forward enough. He has shakers spread out and in opposite phase in mono to create a torsional vibration that is additive. What's the big deal?

All I am asking is for the guy to explain in more detail, how, why he went with what he uses.
What is the connection between the rig's tilt feature, the effect's operation he uses, and what is it adding to immersion for him? He also offered to share effects so that would be welcomed too.

Having debate or different views on something or how to do something does not have to be a bad thing.
People following this thread can decide for themselves what they like or want to try and as I've said before anything I show or discuss, yes most certainly people are more than welcome to question, evaluate or cast their own opposing views. We don't need to drop the tone to using personal insults, this is a general discussion thread.

My concern with two units sharing energy on the same structure that connects each directly on either side when one is out of phase can it not then cause cancellation?

If some readers want to test such, try different frequencies/tones going to both L/R units, these either side of their seat/pedals. Now, with the amp off, temporarily switch the +/- wires on just one transducer. Now retry same tests to compare how it alters the felt sensation to having both units with the correct phase Vs having one out of phase.

 

[blekenbleu]

Having debate or different views on something or how to do something does not have to be a bad thing.

In fact, that is essential to the scientific method. Until described phenomena are duplicated or at least reconciled with accepted theory or practice, acceptance should be tentative.

My concern with two units sharing energy on the same structure that connects each directly on either side when one is out of phase can it not then cause cancellation?

Individually, structural members can be considered as acoustic transmission lines, like guitar strings or tuning forks. If not of infinite length and constant cross section, they are liable to standing waves, particularly for metals, which are relatively undamped, compared with e.g. wood. Standing waves will have peak lateral excursions at different points, depending on excitation frequencies, geometries and terminations. Exciters and shakers also act somewhat as terminations. Attaching two exciters at different points to the same member or structure, then varying the phase relationship between those exciters can move points of peak standing wave excursions. This suggests applying accelerometers to members at points of desired stimulations (e.g. seat), then varying exciter phase relationships for different frequencies to optimize excursions.

For those interested in experimenting, cheap contact microphones could be used with free PC oscilloscope software and their sound card.

 

[Mr Latte]

Mmmmmmmm, that mic you showed, is it not to take the physical sound generated from an acoustic instrument to then route it into a DAW - amp - speakers?

Are you recommending this based on usage with tactile and can share results with it or as an idea?

Could be wrong but I do not believe you can use that in a scientific manner that would be accurate for detailed "vibration" detection analysis. A mic would pick up airborne waves and harmonics as well as a tactile units operational sounds.

Previously we had a user wanting or demonstrating how to use mics to detect the frequencies transducers were generating by pointing a mic at the unit. In a similar way, people do room acoustical measuring for speakers and reflections in the room to set EQ values. Errr but hold on why do that, it too may not be that accurate?

Besides, we can see accurately from the soundcard/output device what frequencies the effects are generating with monitoring software tools. We then determine exactly what Hz we want the units to generate via crossover and to what dB in amplitude for specific frequencies we desire via additional EQ. We can now even have, dynamic real-time EQ if using specialist audio tools.

My query to this mic approach?
Wouldn't people, be as well using vibration apps on their phones/tablets and it's something most people can easily do. These may not be fully accurate either (some apps better than others) but they are an easy way to use two devices to compare different unit outputs.

With my own build, I had planned to try this (iPad & iPhone) to see any visual references to how isolation or sound dampening is reducing vibrations. Simply by comparing metering at points on the rig before and after vibrations pass through installed isolation materials.

Professional equipment to accurately measure "vibrations" in materials/structures or motors not just measure "sound" used in many industries can cost thousands.

 

[mrazracing28]

@Mr Latte Your posts about tactile immersion has given me a bug to add bass shakers to my 8020 racing sim rig. My rig will be in the basement on carpet so unwanted vibrations to other rooms shouldn't be an issue. However, I'm struggling to piece together a full build. If you can help me out, great. But, if not, I completely understand. If it would be easier to start a new tread as to not "dirty up" this thread, I'm willing to do so. Looking forward to your response.

 

[blekenbleu]

Mmmmmmmm, that mic you showed, is it not to take the physical sound generated from an acoustic instrument to then route it into a DAW - amp - speakers?

It appears to be a contact microphone, which, lacking diaphragm, mostly senses guitar body vibration, arguably analogous to an exciter vs speaker.

Are you recommending this based on usage with tactile and can share results with it or as an idea?

My audio frequency experiments use phono cartridges, without controlling phase,
to evaluate swept tone vibration isolation and damping,
but I use the phase trick for steering RF.

Could be wrong but I do not believe you can use that in a scientific manner that would be accurate for detailed "vibration" detection analysis. A mic would pick up airborne waves and harmonics as well as a tactile units operational sounds.

You may be right, and I expect these are somewhat microphonic,
but would anyway recommend getting at least 2,
placing one at an exciter and another at region of interest, after "calibrating".
Run the exciter contact mic into oscilloscope software (left?) X-channel
and the ROI contact mic into (right?) Y-channel.
For "calibration", with mics co-located, one expects a diagonal straight line (ignoring noise)


if/when both mics respond identically over a range of swept frequencies,
then relocate the ROI mic and re-sweep with different phase shifts.
With propagation delays and phase shifts, oscilloscope diagonal lines become ellipses,
but their vertical heights should still vary as standing wave peaks move.

Besides, we can see accurately from the soundcard/output device what frequencies the effects are generating with monitoring software tools.

Well, one can see inputs to power amplifier,
which will be distorted after shakers/exciters converts those to vibrations.

Professional equipment to accurately measure "vibrations" in materials/structures or motors not just measure "sound" used in many industries can cost thousands.

Yes, and this costs about $6, using existing PC, sound card and free oscilloscope software.
Consider it more like a bridge, sensitive to differences, rather than yielding calibrated values.