Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[bassun]

I'm happy with my RPM settings for lower revs through my BK-LFE but am struggling to set my exciters to work at higher revs. Please can you guys post a screenshot of your exciter RPM settings.. or share the figures you're using?

I will, but cannot right now. I'll post what I have this evening. Note: It is for ONLY 2 - so if you are running set's it obviously wont cover everything lol. Should give a starting point, or at least an idea. I know Mr Latte is working with some people and I'm sure those effects are stellar compared to what I have.

@gnoshme I 100% agree that I AM missing out. But -- in iRacing - before each race you are sitting on the line at idle, and when I am playing with (simhub) tuning, I'm usually sitting idle. It ended up annoying me. So I cut it out, lol. I liked the sensation - but it just annoyed me after some time lol. I think I may be more in the mind set of using tactile to help vs just for immersion. I had not made a conscious decision to go that route, but it seems that's what I keep doing.

 

[Mr Latte]

So I have a private PM set up as a bit of a tutorial
This is for owners of the large LFE & CONCERT models and who own DSP or NXD amps

They are essential for the level of control and performance they bring
I will be highlighting why this is and sharing effectsas well as amp settings not shared before with this group.

So the idea is to get feedback from people and see if I can walk the walk and not just talk the talk
PM for invite, the only requirement is having the recommended hardware.

 

[Mr Latte]

I will, but cannot right now. I'll post what I have this evening. Note: It is for ONLY 2 - so if you are running set's it obviously wont cover everything lol. Should give a starting point, or at least an idea. I know Mr Latte is working with some people and I'm sure those effects are stellar compared to what I have.

@gnoshme I 100% agree that I AM missing out. But -- in iRacing - before each race you are sitting on the line at idle, and when I am playing with (simhub) tuning, I'm usually sitting idle. It ended up annoying me. So I cut it out, lol. I liked the sensation - but it just annoyed me after some time lol. I think I may be more in the mind set of using tactile to help vs just for immersion. I had not made a conscious decision to go that route, but it seems that's what I keep doing.

In Simhub we have various effect options to achieve idle sensation/response.
So it may be the Parametric RPM mode recently added, it may be via the older RPM mode offering the shaping of the response curve feature. Its also even possible via SPEED and using a negative value.

Each option may have its own drawbacks benefits but that may depend on the user and thier preferences.

I get what your saying it can be tiring after a while but it is possible to have it feature without being too intrisive. We can also change how it feels quite a lot to suit different cars but its a sensation that really needs low volume but deep bass/energy.

You cant replicate the same sensation with higher frequencies as they just do not have the same level of energy. Cars with higher idle tend to also have higher max RPM range. So from a V4-V12 the Hz used should be progressive for the idle used.

From a V12 to a V10, V8, V6, V4 they can work well with a varation of 20Hz difference (5Hz) steps in what the Hz used are for the idle sensation. This helps give different cars different sensations but a user having the same effect profile for all cars then the same RPM settings/layers for cars with very different idle and max RPM just doesnt work that well.

All the best bass is gone well before you reach higher RPM if using a typical low-High RPM solution.
Thats why we need custom layers for specific RPM or Speed sensations. You are also correct that in some layers we have the Hz lower as the RPM increases, as its perfect to replicate engine strain or max rpm.

 

[bassun]

In Simhub we have various effect options to achieve idle sensation/response.
So it may be the Parametric RPM mode recently added, it may be via the older RPM mode offering the shaping of the response curve feature. Its also even possible via SPEED and using a negative value.

Each option may have its own drawbacks benefits but that may depend on the user and thier preferences.

I get what your saying it can be tiring after a while but it is possible to have it feature without being too intrisive. We can also change how it feels quite a lot to suit different cars but its a sensation that really needs low volume but deep bass/energy. You cant replicate the same sensation with higher frequencies as they just do not have the same level of energy.

100% agree it takes more than just exciters to get a great feeling. I'm recently in the BK-LFE camp and currently only using them for suspension effects. I think I will be eventually adding my third as a mono for effects like RPM's or speed, but for the moment, that isn't an option. All that said, I'm beginning to think that if done gently I may be able to utilize them for some RPM support as well without muddying up the suspension stuff. Time and testing will tell lol.

 

[Red_Eye]

Hello everbody. I have a P1-X, fibreglass seat, solid floor, simvibe w/soundcard and want to run engine, gear and simple road/bump effects for now.

Keeping it easy, I want to use a single buttkicker LFE under my seat controlled by a NX3000D/6000D? and possibly adding another LFE in the future.

My real question is would this setup stand up to prolonged daily use when used correctly?. Can transducers output constant RPM’s without getting too hot?.

I was also looking at the earthquake q10b unit but it’s range is a lot less than the LFE.

I play either iRacing or ACC an just want to get a bit more feeling into the rig to increase immersion.

 

[Ries Notenboom]

Hello everbody. I have a P1-X, fibreglass seat, solid floor, simvibe w/soundcard and want to run engine, gear and simple road/bump effects for now.

Keeping it easy, I want to use a single buttkicker LFE under my seat controlled by a NX3000D/6000D? and possibly adding another LFE in the future.

My real question is would this setup stand up to prolonged daily use when used correctly?. Can transducers output constant RPM’s without getting too hot?.

I was also looking at the earthquake q10b unit but it’s range is a lot less than the LFE.

I play either iRacing or ACC an just want to get a bit more feeling into the rig to increase immersion.

Yes they can do that just fine, transducers themselves won't run hot it's the amp that has the power unit.
As long as you amp doesn't have to work 100% all the time it will never run hot.

I use a old Pioneer 4 channel amp which I have had for 25 years, hooked up 2 x Sinus Live Bass Pump III 8 Ohm on mobo soundcard ( use seperate asus rog for main sound ) which cost about 40 euro each with some 1.5mm speaker wire and have run them for hours on end ( 1 under the seat 1 under the pedal tray).
Never gets hot as my amp is a 4chx100w and only uses 25% power at peak moments.
And as for the immersion...I can't run without them anymore !!!

As for the setup you are looking at it will be the same result, it won't run at 100% power ever probably and only has peak power moments.

 

[Red_Eye]

Yes they can do that just fine, transducers themselves won't run hot it's the amp that has the power unit.
As long as you amp doesn't have to work 100% all the time it will never run hot.

I use a old Pioneer 4 channel amp which I have had for 25 years, hooked up 2 x Sinus Live Bass Pump III 8 Ohm on mobo soundcard ( use seperate asus rog for main sound ) which cost about 40 euro each with some 1.5mm speaker wire and have run them for hours on end ( 1 under the seat 1 under the pedal tray).
Never gets hot as my amp is a 4chx100w and only uses 25% power at peak moments.
And as for the immersion...I can't run without them anymore !!!

As for the setup you are looking at it will be the same result, it won't run at 100% power ever probably and only has peak power moments.

Thank you for the reply dude. I’ll go for the NX6000D for robustness. Stated 3000w per channel at 4 ohm vs 900w on the 3000D.

If I do eventually run 2 x LFEs then it will have plenty of overhead. I’ve had a bad experience with BK gamer 2 units so I just want something Up to the task.

 

[Mr Latte]

Thank you for the reply dude. I’ll go for the NX6000D for robustness. Stated 3000w per channel at 4 ohm vs 900w on the 3000D.

If I do eventually run 2 x LFEs then it will have plenty of overhead. I’ve had a bad experience with BK gamer 2 units so I just want something Up to the task.

Wasting your money, You can power 2x Large BK Concert with a NX1000D and still not use the amps full volume. Some may want to opt for the 3000 model as it will be better for handling the 4ohm LFE.

You will likely want to do the fan mod as well, I dont think the new NXD models are much quieter than the original iNuke DSP models. (Search Forums)

 

[Red_Eye]

Wasting your money, You can power 2x Large BK Concert with a NX1000D and still not use the amps full volume. Some may want to opt for the 3000 model as it will be better for handling the 4ohm LFE.

You will likely want to do the fan mod as well, I dont think the new NXD models are much quieter than the original iNuke DSP models. (Search Forums)

Hey thanks, yes I’m aware of the noisy fans, I’ll play that one by ear. So your recommendation is either 1000d with Concerts or 3000d with LFEs.

I never considered the concerts but increased strength between 40-80hz would be cool. Is that the only difference between the two ?.

 

[bassun]

@Brutal Deluxe - I apologize, I totally forgot to post that setup. I will make sure I grab it today.

 

[Mr Latte]

Hey thanks, yes I’m aware of the noisy fans, I’ll play that one by ear. So your recommendation is either 1000d with Concerts or 3000d with LFEs.

I never considered the concerts but increased strength between 40-80hz would be cool. Is that the only difference between the two ?.

I wouldnt read into the "marketing" so much both the LFE and CT will perform well. @Michal Burisin has just started helping with effects and amp settings I am sharing/testing. I think he uses 6 large Concerts.

What testers are going to find is that over 60Hz, when it comes to performance the BK units start to fall off in detail compared to other certain models. So the best approach is to combine other units that handle the higher frequencies than rely on just one unit for the whole 1-200Hz bass range.

For that, the recommended exciters are the best approach or go with TST units. This thread and especially in the past year covers this quite a lot.

Having additional channels is also a benefit so if using 4-6 exciters compared to a single TST it lets us do things we cant on a single unit. Firstly is achieve direct contact to specific body regions and this can also give a wider spread of the effects over a seat compared to a single or stereo TST installation.

If we want an effect to go to all units, thats possible or another benefit is by placing different effects to the 4-6 units how we prefer or please. We then reduce the workload a single unit has to deal with as well which also helps with detailing.

In general it gives the user better performance and better control.
You will not beat this approach with the concept I am sharing but its convincing people to adopt into it or go with it has been the hard part.

 

[Red_Eye]

I wouldnt read into the "marketing" so much both the LFE and CT will perform well. @Michal Burisin has just started helping with effects and amp settings I am sharing/testing. I think he uses 6 large Concerts.

What testers are going to find is that over 60Hz, when it comes to performance the BK units start to fall off compared to other certain models. So the best approach is to combine other units that handle the higher frequencies than rely on just one unit for the whole 1-200Hz bass range.

For that, the recommended exciters are the best approach, or go with TST units.

Having additional channels is also a benefit so having 4-6 exciters compared to a single TST lets us do things we cant on a single unit and can give a wider spread of the effects or place different effects to the 4-6 units.

And down the rabbit hole we go, TSTs are nice but I need both my kidneys for the time being aha. I see what your saying though, I would be better off pairing the LFE with a TST for the improved frequency range.

I’ll get a nx3000d + LFE ordered now an hopefully have a play around with it at the weekend. Any particular gauge speaker wire needed?.

 

[Mr Latte]

And down the rabbit hole we go, TSTs are nice but I need both my kidneys for the time being aha. I see what your saying though, I would be better off pairing the LFE with a TST for the improved frequency range.

I’ll get a nx3000d + LFE ordered now an hopefully have a play around with it at the weekend. Any particular gauge speaker wire needed?.

Okay, I would also add in one of the recommended exciters, those are not that expensive.
You will want to do your own experimentation and learning (everyone does) but you should learn and feel how you can use the very different hardware to your advantage. You could set a digital wattage limit for the exciter and power it temp basis with the 3000D

As for cables, see the cable guide at the start of this thread, its a bit old now but still has some useful content that might help.

 

[bassun]

Wasting your money, You can power 2x Large BK Concert with a NX1000D and still not use the amps full volume. Some may want to opt for the 3000 model as it will be better for handling the 4ohm LFE.

You will likely want to do the fan mod as well, I dont think the new NXD models are much quieter than the original iNuke DSP models. (Search Forums)

I don't have an issue with the fan noise from the NX3000D. It's not quiet, but it is no louder than my PC at all (honestly, not even as loud), and unless I am listening for it, I don't hear it. Maybe it's the way it's mounted or something. None the less, with headphones on racing, there's no way I would ever hear it. It sounds like the iNuke's may have been louder maybe. Or I got lucky with my install.

 

[Michal Burisin]

I wouldnt read into the "marketing" so much both the LFE and CT will perform well. @Michal Burisin has just started helping with effects and amp settings I am sharing/testing. I think he uses 6 large Concerts.

What testers are going to find is that over 60Hz, when it comes to performance the BK units start to fall off in detail compared to other certain models. So the best approach is to combine other units that handle the higher frequencies than rely on just one unit for the whole 1-200Hz bass range.

For that, the recommended exciters are the best approach or go with TST units. This thread and especially in the past year covers this quite a lot.

Having additional channels is also a benefit so if using 4-6 exciters compared to a single TST it lets us do things we cant on a single unit. Firstly is achieve direct contact to specific body regions and this can also give a wider spread of the effects over a seat compared to a single or stereo TST installation.

If we want an effect to go to all units, thats possible or another benefit is by placing different effects to the 4-6 units how we prefer or please. We then reduce the workload a single unit has to deal with as well which also helps with detailing.

In general it gives the user better performance and better control.
You will not beat this approach with the concept I am sharing but its convincing people to adopt into it or go with it has been the hard part.

@Red_Eye As @Mr Latte said, I have BK Concerts paired with older iNuke3000DSPs, seems good to me. I have watt limiter on amp set to around 1500 W, but I can bottom out on transducer sooner than the watt limiter kicks in. With Concerts, I would go with those amp 3000 W models.

I cannot comment on Concert vs LFE, I got Concerts and I'm happy with them. For me almost anything beyond 60 Hz is pointless to run on big Buttkickers anyway.

TSTs or exciters is way to go, I have experience just with TST.

For good engine effects,the higher frequencies is must - at least for me. I use TST up to ~75 Hz, than it trails of in strength as well.

 

[Red_Eye]

@Mr Latte @bassun @Michal Burisin @Sincx I appreciate all your advice guys, very helpful thank you. It’s a great thread.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte @bassun @Michal Burisin @Sincx I appreciate all your advice guys, very helpful thank you. It’s a great thread.

Your welcome, the problem with higher frequencies is that if we look at an audio spectrum the size of the grid gets smaller and smaller. That represents the energy bandwidth for that frequency range. So with higher Hz having less energy, its harder for us to feel them and especially so if they have some distance to travel. That's another reason I heavily recommend the exciters with a suitable seat as with those we eliminate any delay and they offer direct contact to the user.



This scale of 1-100 Hz is repeated in 100-1000 and 1000-10,000
Bass really will only be felt to at most 200Hz even below this it becomes more audible than felt sensation.
Audio that is heard is typically rated from 20Hz-20K but bass with subharmonics can go lower. We can feel good energy with some clever manipulation of the source (using DSP) from as little as 3Hz and low frequencies like this because they have much more energy they feel very different in their character even with just 1Hz variation.

 

[bassun]

@Brutal Deluxe
Here are the three set's that I had running (not sure if the power % is right though. I was playing with that the other day so that may be off).
All three cut before redline in the MX5 then hit hard.
I thought i kept the exciters running - but it was the BKG2 that I kept giving a little more feedback during the middle. Then I have it drop out and hit hard at the end too.

IF you are going for the drop out at redline as an indicator for a specific car -- I would tune ONLY ONE type of unit first to get the drop out exactly where you want it. Clone that and adjust the rest for other units so you get the same dead zone. Again, it's not perfect, but it did what I needed it to, and of course will be a continuing effort over time I'm sure.

As a reminder: this was to have basically NO feeling at idle -- some decent feel as you run up, but backs off mid way, then ramps again at redline--- then drops off completely as a shift indicator, and hammers you if you take it to the rev limiter.

 

[Brutal Deluxe]

@Brutal Deluxe
Here are the three set's that I had running (not sure if the power % is right though. I was playing with that the other day so that may be off).
All three cut before redline in the MX5 then hit hard.
I thought i kept the exciters running - but it was the BKG2 that I kept giving a little more feedback during the middle. Then I have it drop out and hit hard at the end too.

Thanks @bassun ! That's great, thanks for posting this. I've been really stuck for time this week but just from looking at the graphs and settings, I've got a good idea where I was going wrong. Hoping to test Mr Latte's BK-LFE settings this evening and then hopefully tune in the exciters, similar to what you've done here, over the next couple of days. Thanks again for the info, it looks to be of great help.

PS - You're not alone... I'm also using iRacing, mainly the AMG GT3 at the moment

 

[Mr Latte]

@bassun

Im teasing here but think your doing what most of us assume at the start (inc myself) and its easy to confuse what way this response curve works. I can see with that combination of 3 layers you have and the Hz they use what it might offer in feel.

The RPM is obviously the horizontal but what exactly does the vertical represent, mmmmm, anyone know for certain?

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