Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

lofoscopico · Apr 14, 2020

Greetings to all the forum members,

The last few days i have been reading some about bass shakers and and amplification for sim racing immersion, because i want to add that feature to my rig.
Getting through this thread, i realized that all this subject continues to be a work in progress, because there are always new software and hardware coming out, and also because the imagination is the limit for all of us... well, maybe the purse also count...
As I don´t want to be rash, i considered some hardware, but i+m not really sure of its quality and efficiency.
Could the "masters" here tell me something about these two setups:

Amplifier:
1) https://www.thomann.de/pt/the_tamp_e4_130.htm
2) https://www.thomann.de/pt/behringer_epq_304_europower.htm
3) https://www.thomann.de/pt/the_tamp_e400.htm
Bass Shakers:
1) https://www.amazon.es/Sinus-Live-11...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=9ZZK9R848S6TJH2VT9G7
2) https://www.amazon.es/AuraSound-AST...ss+shaker&qid=1586831730&s=electronics&sr=1-4
3) https://www.amazon.es/Dayton-Audio-...ss+shaker&qid=1586829432&s=electronics&sr=1-3

Thank you for your reply, best regards...

Mr Latte · Apr 14, 2020

You don't have to look too far in this thread to constantly see a make/range of amps that are constantly recommended.
For the exciters with recent discussions, they need much less power. So it depends on what you are seeking to use as your tactile.

If looking at it in a more longterm perspective and buying an amp that can work with the most cheap all the way right up to the more professional transducer units we can buy, then consider the following factors:

For control and tuning, you want an amp that has DSP options
For upgradability options, you want plenty of wattage, enough to power all tactile up to the largest BK units.
For compatibility, you want an amp that supports not just 4ohm but ALSO 2ohm resistance.
For performance you want all the above but also an amp that is designed to constantly output low bass frequencies.

Not a lot of amps will support 2ohm impedance/resistance, including the ones above you listed.

The Behringer NX1000D is the best amp for little extra money over many inferior alternatives that you can buy for tactile as does all the above. Some users may want to consider the more powerful version in the NX3000D as it can easily handle the strains of 2x Large 4ohm Buttkickers.

Note:
Most tactile are 4ohm but not all.....

The Buttkicker "Concert" range of products (Yellow Sticker) are 2ohm impedance
The Buttkicker "Gamer" shaker unit is 2ohm impedance
The Buttkicker "Advance" unit is 4hm impedance
The Buttkicker "LFE" range of products (Blue Sticker) are 4ohm impedance

You can come across ebay or forum auctions for these at well-reduced prices but it makes sense even if they are not the intended thing to buy at the start that you at least in the amplifier you get have an amp that can power them.

The Basspump III isn't a bad unit for the money as an entry-level unit.
You can find it listed in one place that rates it to support 5Hz-200Hz and another that rates it for 20Hz-80Hz
So clearly different websites add to the confusion.

Advice
Its easy to buy and sell transducers and upgrade them over time and if you want to expand the quality of tactile you can feel. if you think it might suit to cover yourself for this then take the advice of buying a better amp that does not require upgrading/changing. This is why, with the amplifier to make a "wise" choice, even if it means spending a bit more on it at the start. They will also hold good value if you decided to re-sell.

I think, one of the things that needs to be done.
It is a complete comparison and review of ALL the budget and entry-level tactile units .

What if a Youtube Channel existed and focused on Sim Racing tactile?

Ray Peasley · Apr 14, 2020

What 4 channel amp would you recommend?
The reason I'm looking for a 4 channel amp is because eventually I would like 8 transducers, which would require 8 channels unless Iv misunderstood something? and I didnt really want 4 amps stacked up in My cabinet. At the moment I only have 4U left available so ideally looking for 2 x 4 channel amps similar to the ones suggested above by lofoscopico
I was looking forward to see your views on the four channel amps he had suggested?

gnoshme · Apr 14, 2020

Social Distancing Related observation.

With my wife and kid in the house all-the-damn-time I run my tactile at a fraction of the power I used to. At first I just turned down master volume, but for some reason I lost all my settings, and when I dialing them in again I found I could get a completely different ( and better ) experience at the tactile levels my body now considered "normal".

Bottom line, I've gone from a 24-60hz effects spread to a 10-200hz spread, with the same equipment just by coming at it from a different angle.

In terms of shakers / amps and install with a test signal I'm seeing:

Aurasound.
- Perceived at 14hz
- Meaningful at 20hz
- Optimal at 32hz (no change)
- Meaningful up to 260hz
- Audible (but meaningless) up to thousands

BK Mini
- Peceived at 8hz
- Meaningful at 12hz
- Optimal at 22hz
- Meaningful up to 60hz
- Audible (but meaningless) up to 200hz ish

The best way to explain it is that BY DEFINITION you can turn down the volume of optimal frequencies so they have the same energy level as meaningful frequencies at max, but you can't turn up the meaningful frequencies to the point where they have the same energy level as the optimal frequencies at max.

If you dial things in with your optimal frequencies in mind (as I have in the past), the only way to extend your range is to buy more equipment that can provide the previously non optimal frequencies optimally.

So, short story long, if you're bored, turn your volume down considerably and drive until it doesn't feel lame. Save your settings then use a frequency app on your phone or PC to find where your low and high meaningful frequencies are and set volume so that these at 75% max is your baseline punch level.

Interesting in many ways. No doubt if I went straight from OLD to NEW I would feel it was lacking, but as with any sensory experience we adapt over time to re-configure so the levels being provided become the new perceived "normal".

I find that I can feel the same effects in the same proportion over a wider master volume range now. Like if I turn it down to half, I don't feel the need to tweak individual effect volumes. My $4 amps are not even being pushed! I could probably find some $2 amps that would be just fine

Another great benefit is my wife is less likely to murder me in my sleep in the coming weeks and months.

Mr Latte · Apr 14, 2020

@gnoshme

Lots of people run the soundcard volume too high and then on top of that effect volumes high as well. You do make a good point here that better tactile comes not just from whacking up the volume but being able to feel more of the dynamic range.

FAKE NEWS?
A $4 amp and budget tactile generates a good bass response at 14Hz?
This perhaps is flawed thinking and a bit misleading as all is not how it may be perceived.

I understand you are experimenting and learning as well as sharing.
However, it's easy to give people the wrong impression here....

Okay, firstly, well yes it does generate a response, but you're not feeling the 14Hz energy, you give the impression of. You are feeling its harmonics and from those the frequencies that your amp/transducer unit can produce with sufficient energy.

We Need To Look Deeper
Let me show you what is happening.
Here is what a 14Hz "Gear Change" generated with just moderate volume.

Tests were done via Behringer X18 Digital Interface / iPad Pro & Using Specialist Pro Audio Software

My hardware detected a peak at 16Hz but look at ALL THE EXTRA FREQUENCIES it creates.

You can clearly see from this, that even a budget transducer unit that is capable of delivering good energy from the common peak/felt sensation of 40Hz right up to the 100Hz or even 200Hz range could produce a decent response with this. Look closer at that 40Hz-200Hz range its only just over 1dB lower in this reading than the actual 14Hz center frequency used that you give the impression or relate to feeling.

Lower frequencies demand more energy but this does not mean cranking the volume for a small unit will obtain the felt energy of the low frequency, no sir. That will increase the energy felt from all the harmonics that the unit can generate which you see above.

The simple truth is, you will not feel proper low bass unless you invest in the hardware that can rightly produce it.
This takes, lots of watts and units like Buttkickers with heavy pistons.

To properly feel only the lowest bass and not the multiple harmonics, you would need a digital crossover to limit the output going to the transducer to examples like 20Hz or 30Hz or 40Hz. THEN you could determine how well the unit you are using outputs the 14Hz center value and not feel the response from the combined generated harmonics as shown above.

The ideal method to test the "true abilities" of different tactile units or amps would be to use what is called a "Bandpass Filter"
This lets the user set the start/stop frequency range that will only be output and all other frequencies are ignored.

Here is a "Bandpass" filter set to a 14Hz center frequency with a very tight slope. Doing this ensures we are only containing the neighboring frequencies.
We may also find that different amp and transducer units tested/compared may need more dB than others to get a felt response that is usable, if at all.
This would be an interesting test to do for tactile unit comparisons. Using different units at different frequency points but its not something I have ever seen being done.

We know that budget tactile (while not all of them) can work fairly well in the 30Hz-80Hz ballpark. So placing effects within that should feel okay.
This does not mean that these are the only Hz being generated, (as shown) even if we say that is just a 50Hz range between frequencies. What one model of the transducer will output may also be determined by its operational character to another.

So one unit that can better generate higher frequencies will contain more of the higher harmonics, so it can bring more finer fidelity. This does not mean we have to test units like exciters with only higher ranges, like 100/150/200Hz generated tones to feel the higher frequencies. Nope because, as shown and you see in the first image, even with low-frequency test tones they can generate harmonics far beyond 100Hz - 200Hz in what we can use in tactile.

By lowering your volume, you are reducing the peak of the frequencies your unit generates in its character with the amp used.
In some cases, we can reduce the peaks a unit has to actually help better feel the other frequencies the unit outputs not so well.
This is one good example of why DSP or being able to use EQ for tactile can bring better results with some time spent tuning.

Mr Latte · Apr 15, 2020

Ray Peasley said:
What 4 channel amp would you recommend?
The reason I'm looking for a 4 channel amp is because eventually I would like 8 transducers, which would require 8 channels unless Iv misunderstood something? and I didnt really want 4 amps stacked up in My cabinet. At the moment I only have 4U left available so ideally looking for 2 x 4 channel amps similar to the ones suggested above by lofoscopico
I was looking forward to see your views on the four channel amps he had suggested?

You need to state what model or level of tactile you want to use.
The same question applies, do you want an amp you don't need to upgrade or just something cheap? Are you driven more to a longterm solution or price/budget based option?

If seeking more of a pro-level of equipment then the NX4-6000 is a good 4 channel amp with lots of power.
It does not however come with DSP but that is possible with additional hardware.

The problem is for the sake of making more room/space a 4 channel unit in one box is going to cost more than 2 other amps potentially like NX1000D or NX3000D with the DSP included. Also keep in mind if potentially wanting something that can power the higher end transducers/shaker products you want an amp that is 2ohm stable as well. Not all will be, hope it helps...

THIS is another good choice for a 4 channel amp and has DSP built in. Specs seem good but I have not seen its software/DSP options and unfortunately this is not 2ohm stable. It could however be used with 4ohm units and up to the largest BK LFE (blue sticker) or Earthquake shakers.

gnoshme · Apr 15, 2020

Mr Latte said:
FAKE NEWS?
A $4 amp and budget tactile generates a good bass response at 14Hz?
This perhaps is flawed thinking and a bit misleading as all is not how it may be perceived.

I understand you are experimenting and learning as well as sharing.
However, it's easy to give people the wrong impression here....

Woa there Nelly. You're opening up a can of worms here a bit.

The non can of worms part first. Thank you for your insights on frequencies, they are solid. I do see that this could be confusing - you are right that my Hz statements are simplistic. My "perceived", "meaningful", "optimal" levels are based on sending test signals of specific frequencies to the shakers and reporting on perception of feeling. Yes. All kinds of frequencies are at play here, so yes, I shouldn't categorically say that I now have a true 10hz experience. I should have said that at lower overall volumes I can set an effect in Simhub to 10hz and it's usable.. although in reality I'm not going below 14hz. Simplistic ways of describing comparisons can be useful when talking about applied physics and that's what I was going for. If I can't say I went from A to B quickly and clearly with as few words as possible it's not going to be useful.

So. To restate. With my new approach I've gone from a simvibe configuration of frequency spread from whatever it was (narrow) to whatever it is (wide) with the same equipment.

Better?

Now that can of worms! The differences between us.

When I make a recommendation or statement about an amp and it's effectiveness I've either:
a) bought it and I've tested it against a baseline of rack gear. Good rack gear.
b) or sharing an opinion about an amp I haven't bought, but I'm basing it on the experience of board layout or chip that I have bought and tested.

I've even gone as far as to spend good money on a bad amp (Nobosound) I didn't need or want, because you've endorsed it and I'm interested in how it compares to the amps that I find to be best.

I haven't of course tried the Berringers. Here's why. Try going to an audio / PA / Musician forum and saying something along the lines of, "The simple truth is, you're not going to get what you want without spending money on good equipment - so get a Berringer", and see how that goes!

Berringer is the Kia of the music world. There's nothing wrong with a Kia, but a Kia with the same features as a BMW is still a Kia.

Their best stuff is rip offs of other peoples designs, but a lot of their gear is like those cheap socket sets that LOOK like socket sets, and hey, they say "Professional Socket Set" on the box, but they aren't good. The only Berringer I've bought in my life (a varied life, that's included Electronic Acoustics University course, a studio sound engineer, and a full time musician) is the headphone mixer on my rig ($50 on craigslist), and I'll bet it's a rip off of the A.R.T. (which is what I would buy if I was buying new.)

The rack gear I've compared amps to are better. To take our analogy further, my stuff is like a 2 generation old Audi or BMW. It's better at the core task of being a car, but it doesn't have Android Auto and LED headlights(DSP). I hear you about needing wattage to drive big BKs, and the value of DSP here, and I have no comment as I haven't got one. In terms of wrong impressions though, and why this all has to be said, how many people here think that you need to spend hundreds of dollars on amps to drive 40w exciters? THAT IS INSANE.

For people spending serious money on amps for exciters, I'm running one BK Mini and 5 AuraSounds WELL off a $22 power supply, $30 in amps total, and connectors and cable coming to a total of under $100.

Do I generate the same tactile experience as you? Nope. If I had the same shakers as you, and the same effects experience as you could I get to the same level at a fraction of the cost in amplification? Oh hell yes.

Have I taken this a little personally? Sure. It could have been the opinion of equipment you've not tried. It could have been the "you get what you pay for" mentality which always rubs me the wrong way. It could have been the inference that there is some kind of voodoo inside rack gear that makes the final amp stage somehow magical.. and not just $4 worth of components. It could have been the ongoing glorification of Berringer which I've always struggled with. Maybe it's even the headline in the style of Donald Trump.

Who knows. Maybe I'm just being overly sensitive today (probably)! We are all complicated people living in a complicated time, and hey, you and I grew up 1/4 of an ENTIRE LAND MASS away from each other which is typically thousands of miles, many borders and diversity of cultures.

Sorry for the rant and keep it real.. and so will I.

Mr Latte · Apr 15, 2020

All I'm saying is it's not good if you give people the impression they can get 14Hz sensations with of all things a $4 amp and budget or entry-level transducers. Do I like d.i.y amps not really, I think they look terrible but thats just me and I can't see much point in buying them, when you can get plenty of decent budget options that will work well, come with a warranty and no fuss.

You previously stated in your own blog for people to avoid certain amps based on a specific chipset, based on your testing. Yet people have been using amps (SMSL) with that same chipset for over 8 years with tactile. This before or around the time when Simvibe first came out and lots of people over at "Inside Sim Racing" bought them. I mentioned this before as it showed its easy to make mistakes, give a false impression or be wrong about something. I've done it plenty in the past too.

As a suggestion, perhaps more care is needed in what you are recommending or doing with your testing and these d.i.y amps but if people want to go that direction with their tactile they are more than welcome to.

Plenty of people are running various Nobsound amps, heck some of them probably use the same or similar chipsets as what you are using. I dont see why you need to attack them or indeed your issues with Behringer.

In the midst of your rant....

Where did someone recommend spending hundreds $ on amps to power exciters?
I have stated its a bit much to expect folk to buy an NX1000D soley for 2 exciters even though it has DSP. Yet I've recommended other DSP options in here we can use with standard amps. I also did recommend the EPQ304 as its a slim unit for a rack and supports 4 channels. Sorry if you think its too expensive but I personally didn't see £120-£140 as being that bad and @£35 per channel.

Edit:
Last point and one I didn't bring up
Go look at the specs for the Aura Pro

You just told people how it performed from 14Hz - 260Hz

Yet what does the manufacturer list its specs as?
Does this not seem strange or that you may have not been factoring for something?

lofoscopico · Apr 16, 2020

I would like the experts opinion on using a pair of power amps that i have at home. Using them, event hough they don´t have some key fetures like 2 ohm stability and the DSP, would allow me to save some money for now.
The amps are Vincent SP 996 and they are mono power amps that provide 170w rms when working 4 Ohm.
I consider to use an adapter to connect them to sound card, https://www.velleman.eu/products/view/?id=340517
Thank you for replying.

bassun · Apr 16, 2020

I'm kind of torn on the above. Cheap vs Behringer, lol. I think most people who know me here, know that I favor a cheap solution - that said, I also dropped coin into an expensive solution for the BK-LFE's and NX3000D to drive them.

So I kind of have a limited experience with both. Granted I went with 3116's that were dropped in nobsounds for convenience vs building out boards. I also have limited experience with high end amps. Gosh is 100% right, Behringer is not exactly known for being a great high end solution. But, to be fair, not many cheaper solutions have decent DSP. I debated between going for a cheaper high-power amp and external DSP or the Behringer. I caught an NX3000D on decent sale and went that route.

Now that said -- I think a Behringer with DSP is fine for tactile. Would I use a behringer for something serious, nope - no way lol. If i didn't get built in DSP, I wouldn't have gotten a behringer at all. For casual use, or low fidelity work - I see no need in playing that much more. But, where I'm really at a crux with the whole conversation is around frequency response. And I've been there before.

So -- Gnosh sees a peak at 32hz. This was validated on his phones vibrometer. If someone has not used one most simply give you a response of intensity like a seismometer would. so let's say he see's a 5.0 @ 32hz. If he goes up or down in the frequency being sent to the units, that "power" of 5.0 drops. Say at 14hz its 3.0 and at 20 its 4.0. And at say 40 its 4.0. (Intensities are made up for this convo)
- Perceived at 14hz (3.0)
- Meaningful at 20hz (4.0)
- Optimal at 32hz (no change) (5.0)
- I made up the 40hz, but lets assume "meaningful". (4.0)

To me that is a peak at 32hz, confirmed by checking the amplitude via a vibrometer. I don't understand why we push against that at all? Are there other frequencies being used to build that "strength"? Certainly. But - the result is the same... strongest peak IS when broadcasting @ 32hz. (I think my Aura's peaked around 40 in my setup). If you broadcast 10hz, and can feel it - does it matter at all if the harmonics come into play? No. The thing that I think sometimes get's washed out is that perception IS reality. In this case, we can perceive the sensation at 10hz [and validate its intensity via tools]. Maybe the unit is shaking at 10, 13, 16, and 21 - but all that matters is what we are sending it to GET it to shake how we want. In this case, a 10hz tone. That is what matters. Heck, it could be shaking at 57hz when we send it a 32hz tone. Does it matter? Nope. Why? Because you feel the PEAK when you send 32hz. That IS the key here.

Now here comes the brilliant part. He KNOWS that sending 32 hz sends the biggest feeling. He didn't fall into to trap of using that for his effects. BRILLIANT. Absolutely freaking brilliant, and I feel like a putz for not fully thinking about it myself earlier. Why is that brilliant? Because he is doing what one of the key uses for having DSP is... creating a flat frequency response. Take a look at Mr Latte's curve...(his PEQ from another post) you will notice that peak frequencies for the units he is driving have drops in gain around them. That does NOT boost the other frequencies -- it weakens the ones that the units perform best with. So you end up with a more equalized response across the spectrum. That is a very good thing! I've loaded his amp settings, and they do flatten out pretty well!

Gnosh just did the same thing by adjusting how he tunes in simhub vs using DSP. Instead of using 32hz for his primary in say bumps, he AVOIDS that frequency allowing him to drive his Amps and Units at full power, and getting more meaningful results across the spectrum by NOT using the most powerful peak! Sure he may not hit that same "5.0" peak intensity -- but he's able to get more consistent intensities across a bigger range! And since he is becoming used to say a 4.0 as the absolute peak -- now everything close to that has more impact! That is part what we are using DSP for. Tuning out the "pangs", for example. Brilliant Gnosh!

NOW -- that said -- will an Aura match up with an BK-LFE on the 20Hz intensity? No. Mass is mass, and power is power. Mass and power together is just more --- and the LFE's have that. More. I 100% agree that the best you can get in the sub 30hz range on an Aura does not compete with the BK-LFE in potential intensity. Even turned way down, what an LFE does in that space is more powerful than an Aura. I will blow you away! BUT -- and this is key: "I found I could get a completely different ( and better ) experience at the tactile levels my body now considered "normal" ". Brilliant #2.

I had the same observation with my motors on the pedals. They felt amazing! Then as I added more and more, they became over-matched. I found myself wondering if they were even worth running. They went from feeling great and giving some fantastic feedback about wheel slip to... do I even need these?

Last night, after tuning my behringer to drive harder I think I was bouncing my rig off the floor hitting curbs. WOW! The impact was extremely noticeable. I also immediately tuned down the effects. Having the ability to, vs usefulness of it was not that same. I wanted to be able to use the 1-5hz range more, and more power is needed at the lower frequencies. But, I just gave everything more power too... (to be fair, I did boost the lowest range as well using DSP to push them harder, but that's an aside). They point was that by boosting EVERYTHING to the LFE's I was wiping out more and more of the other units impact. By falling into the MOAR POWER trap, I was diminishing what the REST of my units were doing. DUMB... REALLY REALLY DUMB.

I am 100% going to wipe and start my tuning over. I was kind of doing that in a few cases already - but did not make the full connection like Gnosh did. This is probably the best nugget I've gotten from this thread yet! And I really feel like an idiot for knowing that's what I needed to do (even doing it via DSP), but not realizing that I could just do it via simhub by NOT getting caught up searching more. Dumb dumb dumb. Thanks Gnosh!

bassun · Apr 16, 2020

lofoscopico said:
I would like the experts opinion on using a pair of power amps that i have at home. Using them, event hough they don´t have some key fetures like 2 ohm stability and the DSP, would allow me to save some money for now.
The amps are Vincent SP 996 and they are mono power amps that provide 170w rms when working 4 Ohm.
I consider to use an adapter to connect them to sound card, https://www.velleman.eu/products/view/?id=340517
Thank you for replying.

I think before someone can confidently recommend them, it would depend on what you are trying to drive with them. BK-LFE's -- they may come up a bit short on the power end. Anything rated at 150Watts RMS or lower, sure - use them! Free is free! Just adjust your gain so that you don't burn up whatever you do connect to them. Now, will they be the best? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe they do well at lower hertz, maybe not. But, free is free! I would try them out and chances are they will do a good enough job to justify their price!

Mr Latte · Apr 16, 2020

No interest deleted...

Mr Latte · Apr 20, 2020

So in curiosity, I recently ordered one of these...

The good news is that they are easy to install, they are cheap but how does it perform?
Well, no doubt that it adds a level of control that could be installed directly to your cockpit in varying the output for 2 units at a time.

RPM Test Effect

So, here is the output without the unit connected, when we connect the unit with RCA adapter we may lose some dB (this can happen).
Notice the output at 1K - 20K range, we will look at this more in the coming tests.

Crossover Tests:
Below is an example of the volume set to a nice level.
The volume control wasn't altered on the unit and was set to 3/4 level.
All the following tests is by altering the frequency control (Hz)

Each image capture is from an RPM effect using Idle - Max RPM
The capture shows a collection of all the Hz the effect was generating (not the Hz at any particular time).

For each of the below, I turned the frequency dial 1/4 turn for each attempt.

Max

3/4

1/2
1/2

1/4

If the frequency was fully turned down it cut off the output altogether.
This I found odd and highlights perhaps it's doing something with the input gain and not just frequency control.

So on this unit, I got, in this early test we see that oddly the Hz control is having more control with the gain than it is in trimming the actual frequencies of what is being output. Now, it should be that as we alter the dial for the frequencies we trim out the higher- lower frequencies that would be output and seen, this was not the case, we did not once see that 70Hz peak be trimmed out.

What I wanted was to be able to see a controllable slope of the frequencies being output and then having gain control over them.
It appears the volume on this unit yes increases the gain but the frequency slider seemed to possibly alter bass but also increased the gain, quite odd?

Conclusion:
I saw no control happening as a proper crossover should offer for the usage we would want here in the sub 200Hz range.
The biggest difference seemed to be over 1000-Hz which is okay for audio/speakers but not in helping us in achieving fine/bass controls

Lots of variations of this type of product seem to be available. I do not believe this one to be faulty and I doubt other variants would be better.
What this does do, however, is help illustrate that an affordable DSP solution is what is needed.

What Else?:
I will be purchasing a standalone DSP unit to test with my exciters and to use it in conjunction with the EPQ304 amp but its currently out of stock.

Ruttman98 · Apr 20, 2020

Thank you very much for saving us all a lot of effort and money, Mr. Latte.

Thank you for your $ (pounds, actually) and your time so we can better understand hardware capabilities and limitations.

pabstar26 · Apr 21, 2020

Greetings everyone !

I am progressively customizing my simracing rig. I currently have a seat mover (JCL V3 with SCN6 40 kg actuators), I am planning on adding 4 SFX100 actuators for effetcs separation (Sway/Surge with the seat mover, Roll/Pitch/Heave with the SFX100) , but I strongly believe tactile transducers are a must for immersion, especially for engine RPM, speed shifts and kerbs.

I am quite fixed on the Behringer NX3000 or NX4-6000 amp thanks to this thread depending on the number of transducers, but I'm still not sure about the transducers configuration...

My seat is like this (not my rig, but mine is the same, by the way thanks to simrace-blog.fr for the pictures and excellent french information) :

The seat mover consists of a frame attached to the rest of the chassis by the rear actuators themselves and a central lower pivot point (like a car rubber mount) so I hope there will be a small isolation from the rest of the rig :

I was considering either :
- Only one big LFE on an additional aluminium profile crossmember just behind the seat brackets at the rear of the seat.
- 2 mini-LFE's on Sim-Lab dedicated brackets (Sim-Lab Buttkicker mounting plates) under the front of the seat for stereo separation.
- Only 2 full-size LFE's at the rear of the seat for stereo separation but no mini-LFE's.
- 2 mini-LFE's on Sim-Lab dedicated brackets (Sim-Lab Buttkicker mounting plates) under the front of the seat + 1 full size LFE on a profile crossmember at the rear of the seat for stereo separation and additionnal mono power, but will the smaller transducers be felt "behind" the bigger one ?
- 2 mini-LFE's under the front of the seat and 2 big-LFE's at the rear of the seat ? I imagine the best but same question as above, do the smaller ones make sense and will they not be overpowered by the big ones ?

At a later point in time I'll also consider transducers under the pedal tray of course, but I'm prioritizing Engine RPM (the most important one for me), kerbs and speed shifting effects for now...

So my questions are mostly :
- Are the mini-LFE's enough for transducing vibrations just into the seat or should I really go only with the bigger one ?
- Is adding a bigger one necessary and will it not overpower the 2 smaller ones ?
- Would it be more interesting to have 2 mini-LFE's + 1 LFE to separate different effects or having just 2 big LFE's ?
- Is it possible to power 2 mini-LFE's + 2 LFE's with the same NX4-6000 amp or should I go with maybe 2 smaller amps ?

Well, thanks in advance for your answers and I hope my questions are understandable since english is not my native langage.

RCHeliguy · Apr 21, 2020

Is there a link to fans that work well to replace the noisy Behringer NX4-6000 fans ?

This amp is far louder than my computer or the rest of my rig.

Thanks!

Explosivefibers · Apr 21, 2020

pabstar26 said:
Greetings everyone !

I am progressively customizing my simracing rig. I currently have a seat mover (JCL V3 with SCN6 40 kg actuators), I am planning on adding 4 SFX100 actuators for effetcs separation (Sway/Surge with the seat mover, Roll/Pitch/Heave with the SFX100) , but I strongly believe tactile transducers are a must for immersion, especially for engine RPM, speed shifts and kerbs.

I am quite fixed on the Behringer NX3000 or NX4-6000 amp thanks to this thread depending on the number of transducers, but I'm still not sure about the transducers configuration...

My seat is like this (not my rig, but mine is the same, by the way thanks to simrace-blog.fr for the pictures and excellent french information) :

View attachment 365114

The seat mover consists of a frame attached to the rest of the chassis by the rear actuators themselves and a central lower pivot point (like a car rubber mount) so I hope there will be a small isolation from the rest of the rig :

View attachment 365116

View attachment 365117

I was considering either :
- Only one big LFE on an additional aluminium profile crossmember just behind the seat brackets at the rear of the seat.
- 2 mini-LFE's on Sim-Lab dedicated brackets (Sim-Lab Buttkicker mounting plates) under the front of the seat for stereo separation.
- Only 2 full-size LFE's at the rear of the seat for stereo separation but no mini-LFE's.
- 2 mini-LFE's on Sim-Lab dedicated brackets (Sim-Lab Buttkicker mounting plates) under the front of the seat + 1 full size LFE on a profile crossmember at the rear of the seat for stereo separation and additionnal mono power, but will the smaller transducers be felt "behind" the bigger one ?
- 2 mini-LFE's under the front of the seat and 2 big-LFE's at the rear of the seat ? I imagine the best but same question as above, do the smaller ones make sense and will they not be overpowered by the big ones ?

At a later point in time I'll also consider transducers under the pedal tray of course, but I'm prioritizing Engine RPM (the most important one for me), kerbs and speed shifting effects for now...

So my questions are mostly :
- Are the mini-LFE's enough for transducing vibrations just into the seat or should I really go only with the bigger one ?
- Is adding a bigger one necessary and will it not overpower the 2 smaller ones ?
- Would it be more interesting to have 2 mini-LFE's + 1 LFE to separate different effects or having just 2 big LFE's ?
- Is it possible to power 2 mini-LFE's + 2 LFE's with the same NX4-6000 amp or should I go with maybe 2 smaller amps ?

Well, thanks in advance for your answers and I hope my questions are understandable since english is not my native langage.

I went with the big LFE under my seat. I used 4 vibration dampers under the seat construction (GT1-EVO rig) to isolate it a bit from the rest of the rig. And 1 mini LFE bolted right underneath the pedal tray. For kerbs and impacts the big LFE is great and I really recommend it. The mini LFE is stronger then I thought and even does a good job for road vibration etc. I havent used engine rpm just yet, because I just installed the hardware and learning. But in short, I think 1 big LFE and 1 mini LFE under the seat would be a great start. I think left and right seperation is only possible when you really think over isolating everything in a smart way. Or else it would just be a vibrating mess. You can always extend from here. I use the NX3000D for the 2 buttkickers. Very happy and impressed with the result so far. Should have done this much earlier!

Explosivefibers · Apr 21, 2020

RCHeliguy said:
Is there a link to fans that work well to replace the noisy Behringer NX4-6000 fans ?

This amp is far louder than my computer or the rest of my rig.

Thanks!

I installed the Noctua NF-8A Chromax black in my NX3000D. It's so much quieter, almost inaudible. I could not get the connector part (on the circuit board) loose, so I had to use a 4 to 2 pin adapter cable and managed to get it to fit. On a youtube video the part comes right off, but I had to pull so hard that I was worried to break stuff. So maybe you have more luck then me.

RCHeliguy · Apr 21, 2020

Explosivefibers said:
I installed the Noctua NF-8A Chromax black in my NX3000D. It's so much quieter, almost inaudible. I could not get the connector part (on the circuit board) loose, so I had to use a 4 to 2 pin adapter cable and managed to get it to fit. On a youtube video the part comes right off, but I had to pull so hard that I was worried to break stuff. So maybe you have more luck then me.

That NF-8A doesn't seem to be available. I could find this 3 pin version.
The NF-8A is 2200 rpm. The NF-A8-FLX is 2000 rpm and about 1.5dB quieter. Both are 150,000 hour MTTF

Amazon.com: Noctua NF-A8 FLX, Premium Quiet Fan, 3-Pin (80mm, Brown): Computers & Accessories

Buy Noctua NF-A8 FLX, Premium Quiet Fan, 3-Pin (80mm, Brown): Case Fans - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

Looks like these are the 3pin to 2 pin adapters.

Amazon.com: Combo 2 Pieces of 3 pin to 2 pin Cable Adapter for Mobile Rack D2P or Cooling Fans, ship from Los Angeles: Home Audio & Theater

Buy Combo 2 Pieces of 3 pin to 2 pin Cable Adapter for Mobile Rack D2P or Cooling Fans, ship from Los Angeles: Connectors & Adapters - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

I'm assuming that with only 3 pins that the fan defaults to top speed.

I should be able to get an X-Acto knife in there and just cut away the glue at the top.

Mr Latte · Apr 21, 2020

@RCHeliguy, you can remove the glue gun blobs and use an adapter that will let you switch fans without cutting cables.
means you can swap back in the standard fan if you ever wanted too.

This is the fans I used with no problems on multiple amps. The product number may have changed?
Noctua NF-R8 redux-1800 PWM, 4-Pin, High Performance Cooling Fan with 1800RPM

It makes a world of difference, just make sure you have the fans working in the same direction as the standard installation.