So I have built my setup with the following:
- 1 x Behringer EPQ304 amp
- 4 x Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4
- 1 x Nobsound HiFi NS-20G Mini
- 1 x Sinustec BS-250
Everything is upp and running! I have put the 4 Dayton shakers in 4 corners of my 80/20 rig. The two front ones on each side of my Heusinkveld pedals and the two rear next to the seat. The BS-250 sits under the seat. I have got a pretty good grip on the SimHub ShakeIt software and how it works. I really like the White Noise setting for many of the different inputs, as it gives a bit of roughness as in real life
It would be great to see what settings people use in general and what frequencies for each of the inducers. I found MrLatte test thread and used those settings as a base. But he uses a more serious setup with many inducers and amps and layers of data. For us mere mortals with only 2 to 6 inducers it would be helpful if we could share settings. Maybe starting a new thread with only SimHub settings? What do you guys think?
Well congrats on getting things up and running.
Will you please shage images of how you installed your units to let us see exactly how you did this.
Concerns:
We need to help people ensure they use these "exciters" in a way that gets the full energy from them, especially as they are so small. My fear is people often rush ahead and do what they want anyway and I am a bit concerned what you mean by saying "4 corners" of your rig for the Dayton recommended exciters.
My query is, why would you do that? If you are going to buy the recommended hardware, why then not also follow the advice for installations? Why do people seek help then just do what they want anyways prior to confirming what their plans are?
Apologies if I miss-read what you stated. It appears by what you have said, you have taken the "recommended exciters" and applied them to a conventional "4 corners" type installation with a central unit on a seat for other effects.
So if this is right, basically you're mimicking a Simvibe CM and EM installation approach that many people use or have done for years. Yet if comparing, 4 corners is not suited to all rigs and can be overrated but most people with it do not even consider much or bother with good vibration control. Nor do they take into account isolation factors as the idea seems to be to let the vibrations travel freely even in mono as *(multi-dimensional) all over the rig like it is a real car.
Hold that thought for a second, this is not the same as a rig specifically trying to use (multi-channels) with control of the effects being output, their placement and how/where they interact with the body. For in this scenario being shared, those channels will have specific effects roles or effect layers detailing. As in this approach, we can help enhance positional placement from effects or better deliver the spread of effects faster and more accurately over a body.
So if using these exciters just like conventional installations, what you are not doing is following the advice in "how we extract" the gains we can achieve when running "multiple effects" and using the "exciters" in a
multichannel configuration. Then to at some point let a user upgrade and/or combine with them the larger BK units that will use their own specific effect layers.
I have to ask, why would you place low energy 40w, tiny exciters to the "corners" assuming it is the main 8020 rig/regions?
Search Thread / Seek Answers / Learn The Basics First
In dozens of responses over several pages these exciters have been recommended for "direct installation" for "body-regions" primarily with the focus on the seat. I know I have focused on the seat with using these in multiple sets but its for good reason. Of course, some people
(may know better) in how to achieve excellent tactile with their urgency and desire to rush in having tactile in
pedals and
seat before we ensure the seat gets the
best energy/detailing or has the
operational benefits that
multi-channels with several units and
multi-body regions can bring. Is it not clear already how or why the seat should be the primary focus first?
Lots of discussions have been made regards "seat" or "pedal" regions using isolators for the purpose of "isolating those as platforms" separated from the main rig. The reason for this is to reduce the size of the section getting the direct vibrations but also to have the direct energy from the tactile maintained better within them.
Weight/Mass?
I do not personally believe weight is a big factor (while mentioned by some) for sim racing. Well not in regards a direct mounted tactile installation, as our bodies are then right next to the unit's installed location and primary energy. In such an installation, (if done right) its energy has to penetrate through us before it can escape elsewhere.
This is the opposite of 4 corners, as with the corners the energy has to travel to the user bringing delay/loss of detail and loss of energy. These will all factor before it will reach the user. So only after dispersing most of its energy to other regions and with no control of its primary energy and detail being delivered where it is needed most, the user. It also does nothing to encourage feeling positional left/right effects enter the correct side of the body, them enhancing the positional or directional energy these effects may contain. Having this work well is like having motion with tactile but very few rigs implement or attempt to do this well.
Its Not Just About Watts & Mass
If we are trying to vibrate a large 3 seater couch or an office chair, those are very different sized objects and require very different applications to deliver sufficiently felt tactile energy. With most "Sim Rigs" we are talking about a seat encompassing a users body/torso and a pedal region for their feet. The rest of the frame should not be deemed important.
Folks, these are not big areas to focus on in comparison to example usage case perspectives Buttkicker use for weight/mass and what models to possibly purchase to suit these. Those may be relating to home cinema installations and vibrations covering the larger mass of seating/furniture with up to multiple people. Sofas also have soft furnishings and dampening materials. A 3-4 seater is a great deal more mass and why such would benefit from multiple units installed to cover that mass or why a user would opt for a larger BK unit to a smaller one.
It is, however, absolute bollocks to give people the impression a Mini Lfe covers the same operating frequency range as a large BK unit and the only difference in them is the wattage. Therefore the perspective given is that if you only have a small seat/mass or region to vibrate each unit will perform similarly and the small one will be enough anyways.
BK Official Advice?
I know for a fact-based on past communication with representatives at Buttkicker (several years ago) they use this approach on recommendations for what hardware should be purchased. Yet the real-world performance abilities and in particular as we use even more usage of the lowest frequencies via (Tone Generation Software) than music or movies typically have. It is vital and a major difference in performance between the Mini and full-size models. This is even on a single seat as the larger unit with heavier piston just performs much better in its abilities to extract the lowest frequencies. Even if you used a large BK unit for a single pedal/foot region it would bring benefits with the low bass. So do not look upon mass or size of region/section you are placing tactile as the only deciding factor to determine how big the unit used should be. Let's be clear, we may not need anything close to the full wattage potential of the large units, but the immersion is in feeling the lowest frequencies with good energy and that's what the smaller units struggle with and ALL entry-level or budget tactile cannot deliver.
Also with home cinema, it relies on a single LFE channel, this is NOT what we are doing with SimHub. We often will want multiple channels with multiple effects on those channels to all to be felt working but each effect to be felt individually. Single units cannot achieve this properly. This is why I keep stating the importance, improved effects detailing and more achievable or advanced immersion is attainable with multiple units and multiple body-zones and why they should seriously be considered over other common installations.
Those that seek to install 4 corner conventional type installations are either just ignoring these benefits or being ignorant to the various information/testing and experimentation done with such a new approach or concept and its new ways in approaching how we better control, develop and use effects. It really is underestimated in what potential Simhub has opened and I can't think or have found a better working solution.
Isolation Usage: Maintain Energy / Reduce Vibrations Below
Dual purposes are common, really its to help prevent leakage and loss of energy or detailing from the vibrations go to other areas or regions of the rig. Also to help reduce vibrational noise where it is a problem or concern for other rooms/adjoining buildings.
You feel the energy via your body contact, so tactile going to various places on the rig with no body contact are wasted. A unit installed in a corner region has to send those vibrations to your seat via whatever connecting surfaces/materials you have along that path and it will be free to go in any direction down any connecting surface. It is far from ideal but it still is what most people do based on the idea that the 4 units represent the car's suspension/wheels and they need to be at the corners. In theory that seems a good approach in real use it's not. Direct energy from the unit to the user is what will bring better results but we still have to be aware of reverb, vibration noise, controlled wattages, not overdriving units and using frequencies that get the best out of the hardware installed.
If you have units attached to a surface and that surface
also makes direct contact with the rigs main frame surface materials then you are letting the energy freely transfer and its energy disperse out to places you will not feel it. People also commonly with corners installations then drive the units installed harder to try and feel what energy they are delivering. Therefore the units are not operating perhaps as composed as they could be if directly installed and with a more controlled volume/gain.
NOTE:
The Discussed Concept Is Not Just About Using Exciters Or Buttkickers & Installing Them In Conventional Ways
Nor Does It Rely On Conventional Methods For Creating Or Distributing Effects
Follow The Plan Vs Do What You Want
The concept I have shared does not work in part, you or others may not want to achieve what it offers, thats fair enough, or not everyone will want to do things as recommended and to each persons "it's your own rig". The approach you have taken (as described) with placing 4 exciters in corners (without seeing it) I do have to question if that is a good thing with those exciters? Nor do I know what your future plans are or to install other BK units at a later time.
My own recommendations combine specifically selected hardware, to be installed in a unique approach and for that hardware to work together for the benefits it brings. Its a tried and tested method based on many hours of research and past tests. These choosen units are to use specific effect layers to operate in a combined way. Going past the operation limitations of single units. It is very different to typical installations and how typical installations rely on single units operation and performances. The idea being shared, was that I can help show/teach people how I found making effects to work with the concepts installation approach and the benefits it brings over the typical or common methods used. It just requires having a small group of people with the hardware and it installed in the appropriate way. Then, it's about making excellent use of the created effects (how they operate) and the benefits of also having multi-channels over the body and importantly if seeking the best performance the full 1-200Hz range available to use in effects tone generation.
Nice Hardware / Wrong Application?
I have never recommended the exciters to be used on anything other than the seat for direct effects contact. As that is what so far all my own experimentation with them has been for. As yet I cannot comment on how well they can be used in pedals never mind being further away in 4 corners of a rigs main frame. Thats not to say people can't buy them and do their own things....
I just want people to take on board that if they are installed in different ways or used not in the way intended/recommended then I cant ensure they will offer good results.
Why Share Such Findings?
Let's look back over the last few months, regards the shared concept I discuss.
Some have, opted for different hardware, sought to improve on the recommendations, questioned the hardware recommended or decided not to follow the installation guidelines. This includes the importance of a suitable seat. Some opted to instead do their own thing, before even testing for themselves the recommended path. I do not know of a single person that has an operational and installed configuration as it is recommended. One that is making use of both multi-channels in the seat and with large BK units installed.
Its not a personal attack to anyone but I am scunnered sharing this concept and trying to convince people of it. I continue to work and test towards my own rig using the same principles but in a more elaborate way.
Long Time Passed
Perhaps eventually we can have some members decide to go with the correct hardware and install it as recommended. Not doubting or questioning things, not bringing their own untested ideas. Maybe they even seek help to install the correct way before just running with their own ideas or they are willing to do a thread on such a build in a step by step way with the recommended hardware.
So, it would actually be good and nice for me to see someone/anyone be able to give their evaluation and opinions in how well it performs when also using some specifically made effects. Even someone to be able to share with others what they have experienced in the past with tactile to how it performs.
