It is mine though heheheh
So far I haven´t felt any disconfort, I don´t think anyone is running tactile so hard it could pontetially cause issues.
Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software
- Thread starter Mr Latte
- Start date
So far I haven´t felt any disconfort, I don´t think anyone is running tactile so hard it could pontetially cause issues.
My biggest concern is brown noise! :/
Well, my buttkicker LFE's came in today. 2 of the 3 had broken terminal connections from Fed Ex apparently using air drop delivery. I bought used, and it's being handled so meh with that -- but arrgh it's so frustrating.
Have any of you replaced connections on these guys? Seems simple enough to open, but a quick youtube look only showed one attempt at opening one up - and he couldn't get the bolts loose, lol. I know BK is notorious for not selling parts, and I suspect the connections are part of a custom solution.
The way I see it - I have three options.
A: Solder a wire directly to the connection. Semi-difficult because of the location, but I believe easy enough.
B: Try to open it up and replace connections.
C: Try to open it up and run direct wires out, then add whatever connections externally.
My current idea is "A". If that fails then move on to B or C. Any thoughts?
Have any of you replaced connections on these guys? Seems simple enough to open, but a quick youtube look only showed one attempt at opening one up - and he couldn't get the bolts loose, lol. I know BK is notorious for not selling parts, and I suspect the connections are part of a custom solution.
The way I see it - I have three options.
A: Solder a wire directly to the connection. Semi-difficult because of the location, but I believe easy enough.
B: Try to open it up and replace connections.
C: Try to open it up and run direct wires out, then add whatever connections externally.
My current idea is "A". If that fails then move on to B or C. Any thoughts?
So, speaking of the TST 209. I finally hooked the feller up and did some cursory testing.
In short - it is too loud. It feels amazing at around 130hz but is WAY too loud for me to race at night.
Here are a few of the useful peaks:
16hz - weak, but a peak
26hz - another peak - still weak feeling
40hz - ok peak - but about 40% weaker than the peak from the Aura Pro B2-4 about 55% weaker than BKG2.
79hz - good peak. About double the peak of the Aura at 73hz peak.
132hz - Long peak from 125>135. Feels amazing. This is the most impactful peak I've had from any of the transducers. Attached bottom of the seat, left- It vibrated the entire seat and seat back all at once and you basically tingled lol.
184hz - another good peak - much like the 132 but not as robust feeling.
I LOVE this guy at 79+ Hz. It would add a fantastic dimension. But - it is way too loud. I didn't grab a decibel reading, but - it was just waaaay too loud.
In short - it is too loud. It feels amazing at around 130hz but is WAY too loud for me to race at night.
Here are a few of the useful peaks:
16hz - weak, but a peak
26hz - another peak - still weak feeling
40hz - ok peak - but about 40% weaker than the peak from the Aura Pro B2-4 about 55% weaker than BKG2.
79hz - good peak. About double the peak of the Aura at 73hz peak.
132hz - Long peak from 125>135. Feels amazing. This is the most impactful peak I've had from any of the transducers. Attached bottom of the seat, left- It vibrated the entire seat and seat back all at once and you basically tingled lol.
184hz - another good peak - much like the 132 but not as robust feeling.
I LOVE this guy at 79+ Hz. It would add a fantastic dimension. But - it is way too loud. I didn't grab a decibel reading, but - it was just waaaay too loud.
Mr Latte
Premium
Im, waiting on you comparing it to the exciter, then giving your impressions how you can see a BK/TST/Exciter could be used to work together.
For reducing noise if you do not have EQ or crossover controls, then just lower all your soundcards EQ sliders above 125Hz. This will help kill off the audible harmonics.
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You know, I did not explore the harmonic sounds at all. I just kind of hooked it up on a whim and did a quick run through to see how it did. I do need to give it a better chance by killing off the harmonics.
209 vs Exciter -- while I have not yet hooked up the BK-LFE's to pair - I have played with the 209 and Exciters. As is, ignoring noise, the TST obviously blows the exciters out of the water in terms of amplitude. It should...it's huge compared to them and eats up over double the power. I've apparently lost my notes on key frequencies from the exciters so I will have to run those again. Just kind of thinking about how they feel -- I think the 209's could be fantastic compliments to the BKLFE on the seatback especially.
Moreover, I have 2 exciters to mount to my seat. That should change the impact with the exciters, and I will be able to give a better thought on their impact as intended. It will be a couple weeks or more, but I will rerun the 209 and exciters once they have a good mount on the seat.
Thanks again for the harmonic comment... Maybe I've written off the 209 too early...
Mr Latte
Premium
Part of the issue with the TST models while easy to install is the 8" diameter that takes up more space.
Keep in mind these operate like speakers as do the exciters using a voice coil/permanent magnet arrangement which is different to the Buttkicker with a linear piston.
On a BK the piston has to move more for the lower frequencies, the high frequencies it has to move much less. As an example, this relates to a piston moving 40 cycles per second (40-Hz) to a piston at 120 cycles per second (120Hz). Think about this if we constantly have BK units using higher frequencies this is a lot of movement for the piston which likely generates additional heat if we have BK units operating at higher frequencies which they also do not generally produce as well as voice-coil options.
From my own exp[eriences I would say that the BK suit deploying "slam" with lower cycles (further stroke of the piston), rather than finer detail, and we find with TST they deliver better the finer detailing with higher cycle rates and the voice coil arrangement they use. The more upmarket TST models then use stronger neodymium magnets and can handle increased wattage.
A TST with its voice/coil speaker like operation will make the object it is installed to become like a speaker. This is primarily the usage case for exciters as well in turning objects into speakers. Now it is possible to use these with a crossover that enables a managed amount of noise/hum/sound which can add a sensation you won't get the same with BK units.
According to some research, we can actually "hear" 20Hz to 3 kHz both with our ears and through other parts of our body so exciters and TST can bring potential in added sensations with continuous effects like for example "rpm" or "speed" that will generate harmonics into the higher frequencies.
Mic Test
You could test the TST or Exciters with having the basic approach of the soundcard settings (shown above). Use a spectrum analyser FFT app on your phone/tablet that works via the mic and you could see with/without soundcard setting (or indeed a crossover) the differences in the actual audible frequencies (sound) the unit is omitting.
This is something I want to look more at when tuning my own rig and when I have all the units installed to the seat. I am not certain yet if I really need to use a crossover on the exciters. However, I will have the more powerful TST units controlled via DSP offering both EQ and Crossover management.
Preferences will vary, some sound generation can add to the immersion, but I don't want it making a lot of noise. You can feel the presence of the sound "in the seat" and then hear that also in your headset or speakers. It can add a certain 4D sensation to the audio if it is well tuned.
Consider For Further Testing
A possible good usage scenario would be to have the TST use "Game Audio" tactile with a controlled volume and frequency range. It will help enhance many effects from the engines/cockpit sounds that telemetry alone will not bring.
The Aston Martin 2019 in ACC is quite a cracker using "game audio-tactile" and the way ACC seems to use engine sounds, even on throttle off and downshifts with a lot of its cars. This can help you feel the "character" of that car compared to others and is an element you should consider exploring.
Determining Best Usage Potential?
I strongly recommend experimentation and testing ideas.
When it comes to "Simhub" for me it was a case of how can I use multiple channels, in various ways, depending the effect or how we want that effect to operate over the channels. So when you look at the pros/cons of the 40W thruster exciter to the TST. We then have to consider how does a single TST on the back of a seat, compare to the potential of 6x exciters on the back of a seat and we see the advantages of the exciters can outweigh the advantages of the TST.
This does not mean you cannot also combine a TST to work with Buttkickers or indeed with Excites as that is something my own rig will indeed do based on my own testing experiences/findings showing they all bring their own elements/benefits.
I will use at least two of my 4xTST units being installed to operate into the seat base frame sections. These can be set to work with a pair of BK units (via Dual Role DSP) and these can have controlled options in how they are used.
Keep in mind these operate like speakers as do the exciters using a voice coil/permanent magnet arrangement which is different to the Buttkicker with a linear piston.
On a BK the piston has to move more for the lower frequencies, the high frequencies it has to move much less. As an example, this relates to a piston moving 40 cycles per second (40-Hz) to a piston at 120 cycles per second (120Hz). Think about this if we constantly have BK units using higher frequencies this is a lot of movement for the piston which likely generates additional heat if we have BK units operating at higher frequencies which they also do not generally produce as well as voice-coil options.
From my own exp[eriences I would say that the BK suit deploying "slam" with lower cycles (further stroke of the piston), rather than finer detail, and we find with TST they deliver better the finer detailing with higher cycle rates and the voice coil arrangement they use. The more upmarket TST models then use stronger neodymium magnets and can handle increased wattage.
A TST with its voice/coil speaker like operation will make the object it is installed to become like a speaker. This is primarily the usage case for exciters as well in turning objects into speakers. Now it is possible to use these with a crossover that enables a managed amount of noise/hum/sound which can add a sensation you won't get the same with BK units.
According to some research, we can actually "hear" 20Hz to 3 kHz both with our ears and through other parts of our body so exciters and TST can bring potential in added sensations with continuous effects like for example "rpm" or "speed" that will generate harmonics into the higher frequencies.
Mic Test
You could test the TST or Exciters with having the basic approach of the soundcard settings (shown above). Use a spectrum analyser FFT app on your phone/tablet that works via the mic and you could see with/without soundcard setting (or indeed a crossover) the differences in the actual audible frequencies (sound) the unit is omitting.
This is something I want to look more at when tuning my own rig and when I have all the units installed to the seat. I am not certain yet if I really need to use a crossover on the exciters. However, I will have the more powerful TST units controlled via DSP offering both EQ and Crossover management.
Preferences will vary, some sound generation can add to the immersion, but I don't want it making a lot of noise. You can feel the presence of the sound "in the seat" and then hear that also in your headset or speakers. It can add a certain 4D sensation to the audio if it is well tuned.
Consider For Further Testing
A possible good usage scenario would be to have the TST use "Game Audio" tactile with a controlled volume and frequency range. It will help enhance many effects from the engines/cockpit sounds that telemetry alone will not bring.
The Aston Martin 2019 in ACC is quite a cracker using "game audio-tactile" and the way ACC seems to use engine sounds, even on throttle off and downshifts with a lot of its cars. This can help you feel the "character" of that car compared to others and is an element you should consider exploring.
Determining Best Usage Potential?
I strongly recommend experimentation and testing ideas.
When it comes to "Simhub" for me it was a case of how can I use multiple channels, in various ways, depending the effect or how we want that effect to operate over the channels. So when you look at the pros/cons of the 40W thruster exciter to the TST. We then have to consider how does a single TST on the back of a seat, compare to the potential of 6x exciters on the back of a seat and we see the advantages of the exciters can outweigh the advantages of the TST.
This does not mean you cannot also combine a TST to work with Buttkickers or indeed with Excites as that is something my own rig will indeed do based on my own testing experiences/findings showing they all bring their own elements/benefits.
I will use at least two of my 4xTST units being installed to operate into the seat base frame sections. These can be set to work with a pair of BK units (via Dual Role DSP) and these can have controlled options in how they are used.
- Only "Game Audio" tactile
- Only "Simhub tactile"
- A controlled mix/balance of both via HA6000 hardware
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Good info on your thoughts with TST and audio. I had originally planned on mixing in audio but with the load I already had on what few transducers I had, it didn't make sense. Just added too much for them to try to handle. But, once I get the new stuff set up - that will change. Unfortunately, it will be a few weeks probably before I get anymore significant progress. I look to have the two LFE's running off a NX3000D. If I can get decent results toning down the TST, I may pick up a 408 and another TST - then run two of them. All depends on how quiet I can get it.Uploaded earlier on the Discord for Simhub...
Some feedback on these would be good....
Seat wise, I can only add tactile to two locations (physically on seat a la exciters). (I'm not changing out the seat) so I'm somewhat limited. I had some idea's previously on how to maximize that -- but I have a new idea, although based on the same concept. Given the simple mounting of the TST, IF I can tone down the audibility of the TST, I may mount two 209's along with the two exciters. Same mounting location, so I cannot "spread" the effects - but I can certainly toy with mixing the two types and pulling the best from each. With the amount of good high range tactile I felt from the TST when mounted to the seat rail - I suspect I can really get some nice impact when mounted directly on the seat back. And that may also give me a nice path to mix audio in. Time and testing will tell.
IDK - like I've said before, it all comes down to testing and playing around with what works on this little rig. I can say that the more I play the more happy I am with mixing frequencies. I completely understand how your cost's have grown. I had NO INTENTION of spending nearly what I have already. But I've got the upgrade bug, lol. Once I get get things set up I should have:
2 BK-LFE - stereo seat rails (rear of seat rail more under spine)
2 Auro-Pro - stereo seat rails (front hopefully if I can make things fit)
1 BKG2 - Under seat, Mono
4 Motors - Directly on pedals, 2 "large" 2 "small" on each pedal
1 BK-Mini - Under pedal plate
2 Exciters - under wheel mounting plate - Stereo
2 Exciters - Seat back, high shoulder - Stereo (in series w/ wheel exciters - shared effect obviously)
maybe 2 TST - Seat back, high shoulder
Obviously mixes will be tuned to the units and locations.
So -- as far as testing your profile. There is no point yet. I LOVE what I already feel, but I do feel a gap in the low end. Once I get things set up, I will grab some of your profiles and see how they work. I can say, I 100% agree with the concept, and knowing the time you have spent on them already vs my hodge podge of effects I can only imagine how much more depth they should have.
On a different note -- I'm supposed to be racing, not playing around with tactile all the time lol. iRacing 2020-S2 starts Monday! I am going to try to be a little more serious about it and see how things go lol.
Mr Latte
Premium
You wont need the Aura Pro if you have the BK LFE installed, they will bring much more low and mid bass and as you discovered the TST can fill the gap with the mid-higher frequencies. It would be wiser to sell them and the BK Gamer to get another TST. Then to run that pair of TST on an NX1000D with their own crossover to work with the LFE pair on a NX3000D.
"Dual Role" as an operational approach of a TST and a BK working on the same channel will not be beaten.
I know as Ive spent ££££ determining what and how units can be partnered for the best performance. You want the hardware your using to work together effectively with clever usage of EQ and Crossovers over the frequency range. Not just have a pile of different units all attempting to do their own thing and trying to blend them in.
As advice, consider placing your focus to achieving the 1-200HZ range via stereo units, (BK/TST Combo) and then also have multi-body zones for specific effects distribution (exciters). Keep in mind you still have a lot to experience yet with what that level or combination of hardware will bring compared to what you currently have had or owned.
The above effects shared are not bad, its just for people that seemed to be struggling with nice bumps or road effects. What it does do is let people play about with some options to have more control of the feeling the car gives for small, medium, large bumps for different surfaces like saw curbs to sausage kerbs.
I adapted them to work on various units, my own newer effects go quite a bit beyond what those offers.
Every so often I go and create a few new options or sensations and improvements are made along the way with new findings or ways to combine specific frequencies.
I'm for taking some time to focus more on the next part of my own build as well.
"Dual Role" as an operational approach of a TST and a BK working on the same channel will not be beaten.
I know as Ive spent ££££ determining what and how units can be partnered for the best performance. You want the hardware your using to work together effectively with clever usage of EQ and Crossovers over the frequency range. Not just have a pile of different units all attempting to do their own thing and trying to blend them in.
As advice, consider placing your focus to achieving the 1-200HZ range via stereo units, (BK/TST Combo) and then also have multi-body zones for specific effects distribution (exciters). Keep in mind you still have a lot to experience yet with what that level or combination of hardware will bring compared to what you currently have had or owned.
The above effects shared are not bad, its just for people that seemed to be struggling with nice bumps or road effects. What it does do is let people play about with some options to have more control of the feeling the car gives for small, medium, large bumps for different surfaces like saw curbs to sausage kerbs.
I adapted them to work on various units, my own newer effects go quite a bit beyond what those offers.
Every so often I go and create a few new options or sensations and improvements are made along the way with new findings or ways to combine specific frequencies.
I'm for taking some time to focus more on the next part of my own build as well.
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if I was looking to put 2 Dayton exciters and a single Buttkicker mini under my seat, would this amp suffice?
I think it’s fine, but thought I’d see what the more knowledgeable people have to say!
Nobsound Lepy 168Plus Mini 2.1 Channel 80W+68W Hi-Fi Stereo USB/SD/Bluetooth/AUX/RCA Audio Digital Power Amplifier Subwoofer Amp Bass Car Vehicle Home Booster Remote Control & LED Display Screen https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B075MD198W/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_zLwzEbVQY9JT3
I think it’s fine, but thought I’d see what the more knowledgeable people have to say!
Nobsound Lepy 168Plus Mini 2.1 Channel 80W+68W Hi-Fi Stereo USB/SD/Bluetooth/AUX/RCA Audio Digital Power Amplifier Subwoofer Amp Bass Car Vehicle Home Booster Remote Control & LED Display Screen https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B075MD198W/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_zLwzEbVQY9JT3
"
You wont need the Aura Pro if you have the BK LFE installed, they will bring much more low and mid bass and as you discovered the TST can fill the gap with the mid-higher frequencies. It would be wiser to sell them and the BK Gamer to get another TST. Then to run that pair of TST on an NX1000D with their own crossover to work with the LFE pair on a NX3000D.
"Dual Role" as an operational approach of a TST and a BK working on the same channel will not be beaten. "
I think you are probably right, especially based on your testing. I can definitively say even the 209 stomped the Aura's in the higher ranges. Key for me will be knocking out the noise. I will play around in a couple of weeks or so and see where things lead. I've been toying with both using them on the seat bottom and on the seat back since I have limited room for exciters. Time will tell. I will, however, certainly look at the dual role concept since you're already proven it.
You wont need the Aura Pro if you have the BK LFE installed, they will bring much more low and mid bass and as you discovered the TST can fill the gap with the mid-higher frequencies. It would be wiser to sell them and the BK Gamer to get another TST. Then to run that pair of TST on an NX1000D with their own crossover to work with the LFE pair on a NX3000D.
"Dual Role" as an operational approach of a TST and a BK working on the same channel will not be beaten. "
I think you are probably right, especially based on your testing. I can definitively say even the 209 stomped the Aura's in the higher ranges. Key for me will be knocking out the noise. I will play around in a couple of weeks or so and see where things lead. I've been toying with both using them on the seat bottom and on the seat back since I have limited room for exciters. Time will tell. I will, however, certainly look at the dual role concept since you're already proven it.
I'm fairly new to this, but based what I've learnt so far and from researching budget amps to power similar products... I wouldn't recommend what you've looked at here.
To power the Dayton Exciters (I'm presuming they're the 40w ones), I would look at either this Nobsound NS-15G for £50 or there's the slightly upgraded Fosi BT20A for £70. They're pretty much the same but the Fosi amp comes with a 24v power supply, instead of 19v supply, which seems to give a little bit more high end frequency range to play with (when I've tested them both with 40w Dayton exciters) and has an updated board, or chip, that doesn't spark when you first wire it up.
To power a BK mini, you'd probably get away with this DOUK amp. Beyond that, the price seems to jump up to a Behringer NX1000D. I'm unsure of further alternatives, if anyone else can make suggestions?
If I've made any mistakes with these recommendations, feel free to jump in and correct me as I'm still learning :/
I hope that's of some help.
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Sound Card Options...
I'm currently using the on board sound card for my normal audio (MSI motherboard which uses Realtek audio drivers) and a Creative Sound Blaster 5.1 soundcard for tactile.
I need to add another sound card and from what I've read elsewhere, it seems best to keep adding different brands to avoid driver conflicts. I'll probably add another 5.1 card and am interested in it coming with setup options that include an onscreen EQ, so I can remove unwanted higher frequencies. Can anyone offer any advice on cards or brands that come with suitable software?
Or am I best just adding any card from another brand and using a third party EQ?
I'm currently using the on board sound card for my normal audio (MSI motherboard which uses Realtek audio drivers) and a Creative Sound Blaster 5.1 soundcard for tactile.
I need to add another sound card and from what I've read elsewhere, it seems best to keep adding different brands to avoid driver conflicts. I'll probably add another 5.1 card and am interested in it coming with setup options that include an onscreen EQ, so I can remove unwanted higher frequencies. Can anyone offer any advice on cards or brands that come with suitable software?
Or am I best just adding any card from another brand and using a third party EQ?
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@bassun I think the simple suggestions seem the best, but I think the only thing you'll hurt by cracking the case is the label. There will be a rudimentary circuit board in the flat block under the label and I bet the case splits in a way that the side away from the terminals is just a "lid". The only slightly fragile part of these internally is the wiring that goes from the circuit board to the actual shaker unit. The big unknown is if the broken banana females are the circuit board mount type, or the threaded shaft / bolt type that would be connected by wires. BK themselves are unlikely to be helpful. I sent them a photo of the component on the circuit board of my BK Mini that was fried asking if they could send me one, and they said that the component wasn't replaceable and the unit was irreparable which is a joke. The part only cost 50c and took 10 minutes to replace in the end.
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