Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

@Brutal Deluxe

Covered in the thread about 10-12 mths ago I compared these units and at least one more non branded unit from China. For me overall the 40W Thruster was the best unit taking into account its output , easy application and build.



Originally I bought the exciter to compare to my TST units as they were always better for engine RPM or Speed based effects that can use a higher range of bass frequencies. Adding a sense of zing to engine feel, giving more life and felt clarity with the higher RPM range. When you discover what the best low bass feels like and you discover how we can then combine the exciters, then you will realise how limited the Aura Pro and many other budget options are.

While they are nice to get into tactile, sorry to say but in a truthful manner they are budget options and you cannot expect a low price option to offer the best experiences. I have been there too, I know how awesome discovering tactile just working can feel when first discovering it but eventually, you may learn how much you also are missing with the entry-level options.

The benefit of the exciters seemed to be how easily they could be positioned to specific zone on a seat as we cant do this so easily with larger units. Also not everyone wants to drill/bolt multiple holes in what can be expensive seats.

I was quite surprised how well they worked even with the mid 30Hz range and then just started playing with ideas in how we could apply these with multiple channels and specific body regions.

The question I then asked myself is, as Wotever had added the feature I requested to be able to send effects to any channels we wanted with support for multiple soundcards. That opened a whole new path we could never do before and I wondered how would multiple small exciters compare to a single TST unit?

While one technically may be superior the other can be used in multiple sets. With additional channel controls, we can even use delay or ways to have effects seemingly move from one channel to another based on speed or rpm or some value increasing. So there are several benefits we can apply with multiple exciters and not just the benefits they bring to higher frequency detailing but new possibilities with effects creation for the seat.

I mentioned earlier how we cant control how/where the vibrations travel within a seat, but we can determine where vibrations enter the seat with this concept I have been sharing/testing and developing effects for.

To the Next Level
The goal with my own rig is to combine the best low bass, midrange bass detail and also the ability to greatly extend the lightweight but felt harmonics towards the upper limits of bass in the 150Hz -200Hz range. Now my seat alone will use a rather crazy but experimental amount of tactile hardware, with over $6000 worth of gear being used in the seat. That's bonkers, buts it's not what I paid as quite a bit of my stuff was got via ebay and over several years of gathering and experimenting with different models.

Some component examples, excluding interconnects/cabling and other additional hardware:


So from this extreme, I have been working up to the seat having installed. I know how well building on using just the exciters and then adding BK to them etc can work. I have spent over a year looking into and testing possibilities with installations and effects creation.

My advice is to start with a good basis that you can build on with gradually upgrading. Not everyone wants to do what I may prefer, I can only share with people what I have found to be the best approach for increasing the immersion and how to make effects that go beyond the limitations of the normal installation or the typical 4 corners idea that many have used over the years.

Someone else is more than welcome to find and share a better approach or configuration to use. Or they may have done more research/testing or discovered something I haven't. All I can say is I know how good the potential is with this concept/approach compared to other things I have tried in the past.

 

[Elaphe]

Then is that Thruster 40W better than the BS301 (50W). I see that, apart from being a bit less powerful, it's much much smaller. Does that matter? It's an advantage because they would be easier to place on the sides of my new bucket (not much room there), but maybe the performance is not as good as with a bigger unit such as the BS301? Also, is double side tape strong enough to attach them without any problems?

 

[Mr Latte]

Then is that Thruster 40W better than the BS301 (50W). I see that, apart from being a bit less powerful, it's much much smaller. Does that matter? It's an advantage because they would be easier to place on the sides of my new bucket (not much room there), but maybe the performance is not as good as with a bigger unit such as the BS301? Also, is double side tape strong enough to attach them without any problems?

Okay so, lets make this clear as it seems people don't quite grasp the concept.

You can start with two exciters, you can expand this to more, the point of the concept is to bring more control to how/where effects are placed in the seat and how we can even have effects operate on different channels in different ways or for certain use case scenarios. This gives the user in creation of effects much more to play with in how effects are used. You cant come close to this if you use the common approach of units in the seat base and their energy having to fill the whole seat from a single installation point.

Typically people would have 2 units in the rear of a seat, often using a Simvibe CM configuration. These may be attached to the seat base in some way or bolted directly to the seat base or back. Some people would take this further and add an additional EM based channel for a highly active or constant effect like rpm.

What you do see with people using the Aura type units, they are cranking the volume to try and get that little 50w unit to fill a whole seat. They are also limited to how many effects they can feel with their own detail as the unit itself is so restricted in the very small range it has that it works well with. So in my view/experience that is not the best approach to run with but obviously not everyone has a suitable seat to do this approach that I do recommend.

The common installation you are considering, does not bring the same potential or control, nor will it enhance stereo based effects as the concept enables. Yes the exciters are smaller but they are still quite punchy. You also get their full energy as they are only mm away from your body.

I would not recommend them if they should not please anyone getting into tactile for the first time, nor would I incorporate them on the build I am doing for my own self. Yes having more channels and adding additional sets of them also lets you enjoy using more effects with improved detailing as you are not overloading a single unit with say 4-5-6 effects. If you work towards the back of the seat having 4-6 exciters then obviously this gives you more options in determining what effects work on each pair or if you want certain effects to work on all 6.

If you can stick units to the back of your seat, my advice is to skip these other units like the Aura or Dayton Puc or other Amazon/Ebay sub $/£30 units. Work towards having the benefits of multizone and channels in the seat and eventually seek to get as big a BK unit as you can afford. This can then be placed to work under the seat base and to the seat rails/supports. Some may even want to go with stereo but the key is you are then adding a higher performance (low bass) model to combine with the exciters.

It is this combination that will be VERY hard to beat for immersion.
I've spent enough time discussing it here and people can either decide to take it on, experiment for themselves with what it brings in having more channels or just do/buy whatever they want.

 

[Elaphe]

I'll summarize what I want: something that is not worse than what I already have and not speding much money.

 

[Mr Latte]

I'll summarize what I want: something that is not worse than what I already have and not speding much money.

Determine for yourself what you think is more what you may enjoy or suits you. Its also possible to buy 1 or 2 of each and do your own comparisons. It's not as if these cost a load of money or you cant re-sell them with little loss.

I have tried to make clear what the benefits are but how the concept can be grown to be something even greater over time.

 

[Brutal Deluxe]

@ Mr Latte

Thanks again for another detailed reply and thanks for your advice on the Dayton Audio 40w Thrusters, I have now ordered 4 of these for the rear of my seat.

I'll get everything setup and then will review my budget to see if I can arrange a BK LFE (or similar) in the coming weeks/months. If feasible, I'll move the Aura Sound transducers to my pedals and fit the LFE to the bottom of my seat.

Looking forward to seeing how your own project goes. The hardware list is very impressive, I can only start to imagine the results you'll be feeling once everything is dialled in. Keep up the momentum and thanks again.

 

[Elaphe]

If you could only choose between installing 4 shakers on a fiber seat, would you chose BS301s or Thruster 40Ws? What would be the differences? Do the Thrusters make more noise? Are the effects (in general) equally noticiable with both models?

 

[Elaphe]

I think I will keep what I have and know. I will buy another BS301 for my pedals, together with this mono amplifier. For 62€ I will add vibration to my pedals, which is my goal.

 

[bassun]

Okay, good to hear your expanding things. Is that the Mini "lfe" or Fullsize "LFE" you got a good deal on?
The 160w Nobsounds seem to be enough to power the BK Mini as some owners have had them using the SMSL amps with same chipset. Personally I have not tested this combo.

Still the best amp to buy I can find for tactile and taking into account performance/features/price is the Behringer NX1000D or the NX3000D. The issue with some regions is the price for them is higher than the previous model but in UK/EU they are not badly priced at all. As stated look on ebay for sales of the older iNuke 1000/3000 DSPseries. You can get bargains folks.

The NX1000D will power anything from the smallest exciter and upto 2x the largest BK Concert @ 2ohm
The NX3000D will do the same, I recommend it for the largest Buttcker LFE @ 4ohm
(This ensures we pass the recommended min wattage of 400w for each model)

So with these amps once you buy into them they will support 2ohm/4ohm units and will not need upgraded/replaced if you ever venture towards higher-end hardware. You can pay a small amount now on something basic but longterm it in my view is good to buy the better amp at the start and have it with the additional benefits the DSP brings as well.

The big boys... BK LFE's. (I do have a BK Mini already running on my pedal plate.) I can see you smiling now, and thinking ... didn't I tell ya to do that to begin with. I wish I had came across the deal in the beginning, but no such luck. So now I have a shop full of units lol. But, to be candid -- I have enjoyed playing with them and seeing first hand how they respond. I know that a set of small units just cannot compare with the bigger ones in certain ways - but even the cheaper ones, if installed to get the most out of them, can certainly bring a rig to life. I could have stopped with what I have hooked up today and it would have been 1000x better than no tactile. (2 Aura B2-4, 2 40W Exciters, 1 BKGamer2, 1 Bkmini, 4 motors on the pedals). To be candid, I absolutely love it - even as is. The best way I can describe it, to those on the fence, is kind of like playing a racing game with surround sound vs racing while on mute. Yeah it works on mute, but it just isn't nearly as fun - and I honestly believe it does help in terms of putting the car on the limit. Cheap tactile is, in my opinion, way better than no tactile.

Amps - yeah, I'm in the US so it's back to looking for another good deal or two. I've gotten lucky lately and hit some deals - so maybe I can happen across something.

 

[Mr Latte]

When others like yourself start discovering the possibilities in what such a combination/configuration brings then it makes it easier to convince others just how good the potential with this is. Wait to you feel what we can do with under 20Hz and the large BK units. Then wait to you feel how you can have more effects operating with greater detail and much more exciting engine sensations.

I have some speed based effects with new layers & DSP settings for the large BK that will blow your mind with the sensation they add to the immersion.

I want to work with others on creating effects for the concept but get input on what others like, not just what I find feels good or works well.

Progress for my own build is happening, I have new parts that have been delivered but still need another month or so to get all the main parts for the base section ordered. The costs are just more than I anticipated, for all the required clamps and the rig frame will be approx 48"x 72".

I have opted to build the base with the steel/chrome tubing I like than go with 8020. The base section will contain storage for some of the amps underneath and then enable the large isolation towers I am using to be connected to the main base frame. It just made more sense to get the room emptied, and start from the bottom up than do a partial build now for the isolation section and tactile installed only to have to later dismantle it to then add the base section.

I also have plans for pedals and improve how we generally install tactile to the front of the rig and pedals for better stereo output but my own focus is on the seat at the moment.

 

[Mr Latte]

I think I will keep what I have and know. I will buy another BS301 for my pedals, together with this mono amplifier. For 62€ I will add vibration to my pedals, which is my goal.

An operating range of 28-55Hz but ohhhhh that bad boy has 100w rating, wow!!!

Are you serious, it has to be amongst one of the worst units I have seen!
Goto an online tone generator website and punch in those Hz figures for a sweep. How on earth do you expect to get much difference in feel between effects if you have @27Hz in variation/range to use?

The exciters recommended will easily operate from @30Hz to well above 150Hz but this has been made clear many times how that benefits various effects including engine rpm or speed sensations. It's not always about the watts that matter.

If that level of tactile makes you happy, then enjoy it but why anyone go for that with the information available here and would then also buy a mono amp with such easily driven units when a stereo amp for powering more than one unit makes more sense at not much more cost.

 

[Elaphe]

I appreciate your efforts, but I don't understand most of the things you say because I'm completelly ignorant to all this technical stuff. That's why I was asking for recomendations: a good setup for not much money.

BTW, the idea of buying a mono amp is because it's just for one shaker (pedals). Of course I could install 4 shakers below the pedals, but I don't need that. I already have a stereo amp for the shakers on my seat.

 

[bassun]

Mr Latte -- Anything against the NX4-6000? (For anyone not familiar, that is a 4 channel with a maximum of 4 x 1600W at 2 Ohms, 4 x 860W at 4 Ohms, or 4 x 440W at 8 Ohms in stereo mode) I assume not, but I cannot remember you talking much about the 4 channel version, just mentioning the NX-6000.

I know it does not have DSP, but I am looking at either 2x NX3000(~d) or 1 NX4-6000. I found the NX3000 on sale at Adorama for $279! Which seems like a good deal to me - most of what I saw was $350 for the NX3000 and about $400 for the NX3000D.

So a little mathy stuff:
2x$279=$558 [NX-3000] no DSP (Dayton DSP 408 = $150 potentially added later) == $708 eventually
[Without the sale it would be $850 total...]
2x$400=$800 [NX-3000D]
1x$550=$550 [NX4-6000} no DSP (Dayton DSP 408 = $150 potentially added later) ==$700 eventually

I have found some deals on the NX4 less than MSRP which is why I am curious of your opinion. If it sits equal to the other NX versions then I think it is the way I will go.

 

[bassun]

I appreciate your efforts, but I don't understand most of the things you say because I'm completelly ignorant to all this technical stuff. That's why I was asking for recomendations: a good setup for not much money.

BTW, the idea of buying a mono amp is because it's just for one shaker (pedals). Of course I could install 4 shakers below the pedals, but I don't need that. I already have a stereo amp for the shakers on my seat.

Elaphe -- maybe I can help explain his point for you.
So with tactile you are interested in "feeling" the sound, as you know. If you can only feel 1 sound from your shaker very well, lets say 40hz, then you are limited in what that unit can do. If you want to feel impacts, road texture, and bumps - they would all just feel the same basically. A 40 hz shake.

Now let's suppose that you have a shaker that has a bigger range and has really good strength at say 40hz, 75hz and 100hz. You can set up those same three actions (impact, road texture, bumps) at three different frequencies. So now instead of everything feeling the same, they all three feel different. Maybe impacts hit at 40hz, bumps at 75hz and road texture and 100hz. This is a totally made up and dead simple example, but I hope it conveys the concept he was referring to. The more versatile the unit, the more you can use it for (to a limit of course --too much and it becomes a muddled mess).

There are other benefits as well, that's just the most dead simple way I could think of to explain part of it.

 

[Elaphe]

I thought all that stuff about frequencies was important for normal speakers, but this is more like a subwoofer, isn't it? I'm not very demanding with subtle details and simply expect some effects, just to improve the inmersion. Actually I don't spend much time configuring the programs: just add the predefined effects (road bumps, engine vibration, gear change...), more or less adjust the volume of each one, and that's all. All I expect from the hardware is that I can feel the vibration and effects, that the shakers don't make loud and annoying noises, and that they doesn't cost me a fortune. Actually, I'm as interested now in the fact that they can be sticked to my seat instead of screwed than in the fact that they perform better or worse.

 

[bassun]

lol - think of it like this.

Stereos have Highs, Mids, Lows, and then true LFE.
You are effectively attaching a stereo to your rig.

Only problem is that the stereo only has a few hundred hertz of range to cover everything. Now that said, there is NOTHING at all wrong with keeping it dead simple. All that matters is that YOU like it! Mr Latte's point is that with a little diversity, you may find that you like it even more! (and that you will probably get better results w/ his suggestion.)

BUT again -- do what YOU like!!! As long as you are happy with it, that's all that really matters.

As for sticking --- yep, 100% nice advantage of the exciters! And they stick well! Take a look at some posts and you can find some great suggestions on where you can get the most bang out of those guys based on position.

 

[gnoshme]

A bunch of stuff I've missed since last checking in on the amp stuff. I think this sums it up:

1) I'll run the NobSound amp on one side, and my mono board on the other of my primary stereo seat shakers and see if I can be more specific around the differences. On the NobSound 20 I feel like it held it's own, but didn't have the power, depth and resilience as my favorite mono boards.. and is so often the case with products out of china, the more features they add, the worse it gets. I threw out the 50W number because it felt like flat out it was delivering what my mono boards do when turned way down. As stated, this was running it on the supplied 19v power supply which based on the amp spec does NOT deliver 100W / channel.

2) On TDA7498E. Sure it's possible I got duds. On the higher wattage end I tested this at 30V:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QCTRD1P/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

and it's the most expensive board I bought, and the most disappointing. I thought it would be great because of the spec, but it's really lacking below 60hz. I have another board with the same chip out of china that's 50Wx2 that I didn't feel was up to use on the Dayton pucks, so that's where I'm coming from. I'll see if I can test it at the flat out 36v, and also find a different board for cheap and give it a test because of course I don't want to give disinformation.

3) On smaller shakers and exciters, I get that it's more about fidelity and range that range and brute force than with the AuraSounds. A whole different ballgame, but as I have a box full of little amps it could be useful data easily acquired. I believe I have 1 dayton puck and 1 40w exciter that I haven't abused the crap out of and I could test reasonably scientifically on the bench.

4) I have to be clear that spec isn't everything even with TP3116 amps. While I"m optimistic when I see links to products like this that could be my mono amp in a box, it could also be this board with a nice huge heat sync that I'd have bet was better but ran my AuraSounds hot enough to fry an egg on. That's when I was using it to drive one side of a stereo pair and subjectively dialing them up to the same level. That confuses me. If they are putting out the same energy I would have thought they are doing the same work, so I don't understand. My gut is either it's pushing a frequency range that I can't feel but generates more heat in the shaker, or there's an ohm incompatibility - something I don't understand the theory around at all. Anyone?

5) I also wish I could find the perfect easy to use enclosed amp for cheap that compares really well to the mono boards I keep promoting. I'm sure such a thing exists but I don't have the budget to find it. I bought the NobSound because it's talked about here consistently and it is a useful comparison in my head to heads, but it cost more than all the amps I use in my 6 channel setup combined and at best it's likely to end up in my wood shop for music streaming. I hope there is someone as obsessed about finding the perfect cheap amp enclosure as I have been about finding the perfect cheap amp board. If someone goes down that road I'll happily ship them a fully assembled build of the mono amps I promote ready to go, including audio connector, power connector and speaker terminals so they can compare their best buy.

6) It's possible that the mono TP3166 amps I have stumbled upon are simply an "exceptional" pairing with AuraSounds (and the best I've found with mini BKs). As I'm treating those as the ones to beat, I might have a more negative opinion on something like the NobSound 20 that are indeed "great".

 

[DougRS]

This is why I have been pushing for individuals and groups of people to adopt the recommend hardware and not only be able to experience the newer effects I have been and continue to work on but then be able to share directly with them whatever they come up with, knowing with the same levels of hardware and installations they will work well on each users rig.

I’d be interested in knowing what your definitive recommended hardware, and setup/where to install, at this point in time is. I’d like to jump in and do it right (or as close to best possible) first time, and test from there.

 

[Mr Latte]

Mr Latte -- Anything against the NX4-6000? (For anyone not familiar, that is a 4 channel with a maximum of 4 x 1600W at 2 Ohms, 4 x 860W at 4 Ohms, or 4 x 440W at 8 Ohms in stereo mode) I assume not, but I cannot remember you talking much about the 4 channel version, just mentioning the NX-6000.

I know it does not have DSP, but I am looking at either 2x NX3000(~d) or 1 NX4-6000. I found the NX3000 on sale at Adorama for $279! Which seems like a good deal to me - most of what I saw was $350 for the NX3000 and about $400 for the NX3000D.

So a little mathy stuff:
2x$279=$558 [NX-3000] no DSP (Dayton DSP 408 = $150 potentially added later) == $708 eventually
[Without the sale it would be $850 total...]
2x$400=$800 [NX-3000D]
1x$550=$550 [NX4-6000} no DSP (Dayton DSP 408 = $150 potentially added later) ==$700 eventually

I have found some deals on the NX4 less than MSRP which is why I am curious of your opinion. If it sits equal to the other NX versions then I think it is the way I will go.

Okay, yes the 4channel option at a good price is tempting and already RC Heli, bought one of those this past week.
However, you need to think this over carefully. If you seek to get the best tuning/response and control out of these large BK then the DSP features are very much required.

We cannot control specific Hz with just volume and the limitation arises when we want the lowest Hz to have increased energy in their output but then other Hz we dont want them to have any increase and some we will even want to reduce/trim their output. Simply the DSP lets you get greater bass out of the units, reduce any piston pang issues and save personalised settings to match your rigs installation or indeed for your mood or preference.

At times you may feel you want the full beans, other times a more relaxed output or even to possibly load specific profiles to suit a specific sim or a midnight mode. It does not take long to get the hang of but with the similar hardware part of the point in it all is to be able to get members of the community sharing or helping to improve settings and also indeed effects we create.

In the UK we only need to spend about £50 more for the DSP variants so the difference you have seems a bit higher but lets compare options.

So from $279 - $400 = $120 for the DSP features included in the amp but you would have to pay $150 for an optional unit with additional plug and software/options/features that isn't even as good as what the DSP amp has.

Yes we can get even better control and features than the included DSP offers.
This, however, requires the route I have been researching via a multichannel interface and Android or preferably iPad with specialist audio professional level apps available. Yes huge potential with these but this costs a heck of a lot more even if it is going to give even greater control of the audio.

Perhaps search more for discounts but I would not recommend to buy the non-DSP model, especially when your primary usage is with the biggest BK units and performance/control and tuning of them should be a priority.

Keep in mind I have been working/learning all the time over the last few months in how to take these units with high quality effects to their performance limits. If that matters to you then it should be an easy decision even if you have to wait a while to get it.

 

[Mr Latte]

I’d be interested in knowing what your definitive recommended hardware, and setup/where to install, at this point in time is. I’d like to jump in and do it right (or as close to best possible) first time, and test from there.

That depends on your

A) Initial budget and installation requirements regards vibrations or noise
B) Preferences for possible effects you may want as priority
C) If stereo effects are a priority or focus more on front/back with mono