Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software
- Thread starter Mr Latte
- Start date
Okay, I can see my nx3000d amps are all plugged in correctly, I played with the gain knobs and can see a signal but I cannot feel anything, when I test the shakers through simvibe, there is only an every so slightly signal that I can feel, it is barely noticeable. Are there any settings that I can use to quickly bump up the vibration. I am too scared to crank everything up as ATM I only have 50w RMS shakers and 900w per channel available at 4ohm.
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Righto, so after playing with the software and reading some good threads on RD. I have found I only needed to change a few things to get it all working. I am starting from zero knowledge basically but have been able to work out that I had to setup a wattage limit and how to do that, then could ramp up the gain and the volume to get the shakers working as they should without worrying about putting 900w through them. Lots to take in with all the other settings though, going to be a bit of a learning curve.
Mr Latte
Premium
@Atak_Kat
I can help but I want to show an example here if that's okay?
You dont show how you positioned and installed them but let me guess you went with the Simvibe ideology of 1 in each corner. I know Simlabs also sell mounting brackets, did you buy those as well, can you show images please of your rig and how its all installed?
You are coming into tactile when in the last 1-2 years with new software and it improving "Tactile" has changed alot in what we can do regards installations, the number of channels and also how we distribute effects.
I am sorry if you already went out and spent $90 on Simvibe (maybe you havent) as now it is no longer the best option to take for tactile immersion. Obviously Simhub/Shakeit comes up a lot in this thread and it is by a clear margin the first solution people should now be considering for controlling their tactile. It is also FREE but I recommend giving its developer a nice donation as the work he has done is rather amazing and importantly he has listened to the community to improve the software with features they sought after.
Costly Entry
Now from a perspective of lets compare, that's a minimum of over £400 of tactile Shakers and two good DSP amps with cables is easily another £400. It is quite a bit of money to put out for something you are kinda not feeling has matched your expectations.
Improvements?
If you let the energy travel to other places then you will only get a portion of its energy going into your own body. You also did not mention using isolation so I can only assume you are doing nothing to try and contain the energy on platform sections for the seat/pedals?
I know Simlabs sell brackets just as SimXperience do also for attaching tactile mostly for the 4 wheel installation approach but hold up, wait. I can assure you that this is NOT the best approach to take if you want to get the best performance. We don't want to attach them to the main-frame we want the energy to be more directly placed into the seat and the pedal regions.
Why?
The priority is that the best energy from the units goes into the user not spread across a 5ft rig going wherever it can. So we want a more direct response from the units at close range, also to contain and direct the bass energy both in the seat and the pedals. As you have 4 units for front/back stereo then you should also still want to be able to enjoy stereo effects but some users are quite content with mono it seems.
The Benefits Of DSP
As for increasing the output, you did do something indeed that was good. You paid attention to someone recommending to buy the DSP versions of the amps.
This will greatly let you get the most out of the units but the above points mentioned also needs to be considered with improvements in making more of the energy for the units you are using.
The NXD software will not load if using the older iNuke amps. So copy these settings from my (Remote Connect) software the older amps used. These are only examples from BK Concert units and not final configurations but will help you learn how to improve how the units are operating.
Behringer iNuke DSP & Behringer NXD Amplifiers
Greatly Enhanced Low Bass
I can't say how well this will work on Mini LFE models it may be far too much but start with 3dB gain and take it up to the 12dB. You can also try different filters but it is easy to visually see what it is doing.
What I can say is for owners of the largest BK this will GREATLY transform how well the low frequencies feel, giving them much more energy than a standard or typical amp can achieve. It frustrates me to see people buy non-DSP models and ignore the advice given to help but hey it's their money and their choice if they think it is not necessary or worth having.
Determining The Slope
Some amps come with a switchable crossover feature but it will have a fixed "Slope" in how it is applied. Subwoofer amps tend to let the user alter the crossover frequency but again they generally do not let the user alter the drop off it uses. Often these implementations are limited to what we are doing here with audio in how we are using constant low bass frequencies more and differently to how general audio or music applications are using low frequencies.
See the vast difference in control the "Slope" makes which varies depending on the other values as well. We can visually see the differences in this example with channels (A) and (B) with same settings but only the slope altered.
Notice the difference altering the "Slope" has for example with 60Hz
It is 0dB on (A) but is +5dB on (B), keep in mind that every 3dB is approx 2x the energy.
We can also see how the higher frequencies are kept higher and extend further. That will bring more detail with harmonics and feel very different.
Cliff Slope
Notice if we use a higher slope value how it vastly affects what Hz will be output by the amp and the dB at which they will be at. A user with just a BK unit will want a good spread of frequencies.
However a user with installation along with the method I recommend in combining also "exciters" with the BK units. They will want to focus on the best low bass to output on their BK units and use the "exciters" primarily for the mid-high frequency detailing as they do this better.
Doing this means using a tighter or more limited frequency range and avoiding the boomier (mid-bass) frequencies. When we apply this approach, we can push dB gain and use increased wattage for enjoying more thrilling and extended low bass. That in turn, gives you stronger impact/realism with hi-intensity effect scenarios we apply to use the lowest frequencies.
Low Bass Can Alter Your Face
We still have people on the forums who do not believe me, on how productively we can use this with various effects including G-Forces or for High Energy Braking scenarios to dramatically increase the sensation and realism this can bring to the immersion.
Yes it will need the very biggest units and specialist tuning you see here but we can bring with "tactile" methods to replicate high energy and achieve a sensation not possible with motion rigs or just the common tactile. Also as it is audio we can alter and continue to create new effect sensations and this is something I have found addictive and seen potential to even be able to apply to different types of car their own unique felt character and sensations.
In the pursuit to take things further, to then not just go with the typical approach/method of finding effects that feel quite nice and then use them on all cars or some with only minor tweeks.
Well, that's okay but nah, as the potential is now much greater that we have what Simhub/Shakeit and continued learning/research into all this brings. As I come from a different perspective being a hobbyist in tactile, I find it very interesting and enjoyable with continuing to learn all the time at improving the effects.
It all comes down to how far you get into it or eventually you want to go?
Have a play about and put in some trial and error with this but in general, you learn what suits not just your installation but also preference. You can try some audio test tones to help feel what these are doing.
Piston Pang & Increased Detail
Here we use PEQ to specifically adjust individual frequencies. The Mini BK models tend to have spikes at certain frequencies. The 35Hz is a general area that is a problem. With the DSP your amp has you can now adapt how your amp outputs this and neighboring frequencies to help reduce/avoid the issue of piston pang.
More cut needed? Then increase the minus value for the 35Hz dip if you stil get much piston pang. The "Quality" will let you also widen/narrow this to determine what Hz (before/after) 35Hz "center value" used is incorporated.
Notice how we boost the 80Hz with +3dB but using a Q of 3 (allows in more frequencies) compared to how we cut the 35Hz with a much tighter Q value of 10. You can use the dials or drag the numbers at the top.
This should be a good help to you or others, yet this is the type of post that takes time and will get few likes or be much appreciated. Anyways regardless what you seek to do on your journey let us know how you get on and show us more of your rig if you want further help.
@F1Aussie and other NXD owners....
I can also point you to this thread that should be a LOT of help with the NXD amp and its software.
Not sure if settings saved on the old software will load into the new software. I recommend you backup settings to a PC as it is easy to save over or wipe saved profiles on the amps own internal memory.
I can help but I want to show an example here if that's okay?
You dont show how you positioned and installed them but let me guess you went with the Simvibe ideology of 1 in each corner. I know Simlabs also sell mounting brackets, did you buy those as well, can you show images please of your rig and how its all installed?
You are coming into tactile when in the last 1-2 years with new software and it improving "Tactile" has changed alot in what we can do regards installations, the number of channels and also how we distribute effects.
I am sorry if you already went out and spent $90 on Simvibe (maybe you havent) as now it is no longer the best option to take for tactile immersion. Obviously Simhub/Shakeit comes up a lot in this thread and it is by a clear margin the first solution people should now be considering for controlling their tactile. It is also FREE but I recommend giving its developer a nice donation as the work he has done is rather amazing and importantly he has listened to the community to improve the software with features they sought after.
Costly Entry
Now from a perspective of lets compare, that's a minimum of over £400 of tactile Shakers and two good DSP amps with cables is easily another £400. It is quite a bit of money to put out for something you are kinda not feeling has matched your expectations.
Improvements?
If you let the energy travel to other places then you will only get a portion of its energy going into your own body. You also did not mention using isolation so I can only assume you are doing nothing to try and contain the energy on platform sections for the seat/pedals?
I know Simlabs sell brackets just as SimXperience do also for attaching tactile mostly for the 4 wheel installation approach but hold up, wait. I can assure you that this is NOT the best approach to take if you want to get the best performance. We don't want to attach them to the main-frame we want the energy to be more directly placed into the seat and the pedal regions.
Why?
The priority is that the best energy from the units goes into the user not spread across a 5ft rig going wherever it can. So we want a more direct response from the units at close range, also to contain and direct the bass energy both in the seat and the pedals. As you have 4 units for front/back stereo then you should also still want to be able to enjoy stereo effects but some users are quite content with mono it seems.
The Benefits Of DSP
As for increasing the output, you did do something indeed that was good. You paid attention to someone recommending to buy the DSP versions of the amps.
This will greatly let you get the most out of the units but the above points mentioned also needs to be considered with improvements in making more of the energy for the units you are using.
The NXD software will not load if using the older iNuke amps. So copy these settings from my (Remote Connect) software the older amps used. These are only examples from BK Concert units and not final configurations but will help you learn how to improve how the units are operating.
Behringer iNuke DSP & Behringer NXD Amplifiers
Greatly Enhanced Low Bass
I can't say how well this will work on Mini LFE models it may be far too much but start with 3dB gain and take it up to the 12dB. You can also try different filters but it is easy to visually see what it is doing.
What I can say is for owners of the largest BK this will GREATLY transform how well the low frequencies feel, giving them much more energy than a standard or typical amp can achieve. It frustrates me to see people buy non-DSP models and ignore the advice given to help but hey it's their money and their choice if they think it is not necessary or worth having.
Determining The Slope
Some amps come with a switchable crossover feature but it will have a fixed "Slope" in how it is applied. Subwoofer amps tend to let the user alter the crossover frequency but again they generally do not let the user alter the drop off it uses. Often these implementations are limited to what we are doing here with audio in how we are using constant low bass frequencies more and differently to how general audio or music applications are using low frequencies.
See the vast difference in control the "Slope" makes which varies depending on the other values as well. We can visually see the differences in this example with channels (A) and (B) with same settings but only the slope altered.
Notice the difference altering the "Slope" has for example with 60Hz
It is 0dB on (A) but is +5dB on (B), keep in mind that every 3dB is approx 2x the energy.
We can also see how the higher frequencies are kept higher and extend further. That will bring more detail with harmonics and feel very different.
Cliff Slope
Notice if we use a higher slope value how it vastly affects what Hz will be output by the amp and the dB at which they will be at. A user with just a BK unit will want a good spread of frequencies.
However a user with installation along with the method I recommend in combining also "exciters" with the BK units. They will want to focus on the best low bass to output on their BK units and use the "exciters" primarily for the mid-high frequency detailing as they do this better.
Doing this means using a tighter or more limited frequency range and avoiding the boomier (mid-bass) frequencies. When we apply this approach, we can push dB gain and use increased wattage for enjoying more thrilling and extended low bass. That in turn, gives you stronger impact/realism with hi-intensity effect scenarios we apply to use the lowest frequencies.
Low Bass Can Alter Your Face
We still have people on the forums who do not believe me, on how productively we can use this with various effects including G-Forces or for High Energy Braking scenarios to dramatically increase the sensation and realism this can bring to the immersion.
Yes it will need the very biggest units and specialist tuning you see here but we can bring with "tactile" methods to replicate high energy and achieve a sensation not possible with motion rigs or just the common tactile. Also as it is audio we can alter and continue to create new effect sensations and this is something I have found addictive and seen potential to even be able to apply to different types of car their own unique felt character and sensations.
In the pursuit to take things further, to then not just go with the typical approach/method of finding effects that feel quite nice and then use them on all cars or some with only minor tweeks.
Well, that's okay but nah, as the potential is now much greater that we have what Simhub/Shakeit and continued learning/research into all this brings. As I come from a different perspective being a hobbyist in tactile, I find it very interesting and enjoyable with continuing to learn all the time at improving the effects.
It all comes down to how far you get into it or eventually you want to go?
Have a play about and put in some trial and error with this but in general, you learn what suits not just your installation but also preference. You can try some audio test tones to help feel what these are doing.
Piston Pang & Increased Detail
Here we use PEQ to specifically adjust individual frequencies. The Mini BK models tend to have spikes at certain frequencies. The 35Hz is a general area that is a problem. With the DSP your amp has you can now adapt how your amp outputs this and neighboring frequencies to help reduce/avoid the issue of piston pang.
More cut needed? Then increase the minus value for the 35Hz dip if you stil get much piston pang. The "Quality" will let you also widen/narrow this to determine what Hz (before/after) 35Hz "center value" used is incorporated.
Notice how we boost the 80Hz with +3dB but using a Q of 3 (allows in more frequencies) compared to how we cut the 35Hz with a much tighter Q value of 10. You can use the dials or drag the numbers at the top.
This should be a good help to you or others, yet this is the type of post that takes time and will get few likes or be much appreciated. Anyways regardless what you seek to do on your journey let us know how you get on and show us more of your rig if you want further help.
@F1Aussie and other NXD owners....
I can also point you to this thread that should be a LOT of help with the NXD amp and its software.
Not sure if settings saved on the old software will load into the new software. I recommend you backup settings to a PC as it is easy to save over or wipe saved profiles on the amps own internal memory.
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Hey Mr Latte, a couple of questions for you if you don't mind.
1. Where is the equivalent gain in the software compared to the gain knob on the amp itself as there seems to be a few gains in the software.
2. What happens when the gain is set in both the software and on the amp, does one override the other if they are set differently?
3. Once I have a profile saved do i need to have NX edit open everytime I use the amps or does it save the settings to the amp itself?
4. Finally, I use Realtek mobo sound to run my shakers and a separate sound card for PC audio.
Does the Realtek audio interfere with the amp at all?
Thanks in advance.
1. Where is the equivalent gain in the software compared to the gain knob on the amp itself as there seems to be a few gains in the software.
2. What happens when the gain is set in both the software and on the amp, does one override the other if they are set differently?
3. Once I have a profile saved do i need to have NX edit open everytime I use the amps or does it save the settings to the amp itself?
4. Finally, I use Realtek mobo sound to run my shakers and a separate sound card for PC audio.
Does the Realtek audio interfere with the amp at all?
Thanks in advance.
Mr Latte
Premium
Hi, good to see you start to get things up and running....
(1&2)
A thing that confuses people with these amps is the volume knobs on the front.
With these amps they increase the "input gain" level, this is why we have two and one for each input.
As in many scenarios a user could be powering different audio equipment or instruments with their own differences in output. So this lets the user balance the input to each be the same. Most people tend to use something between 12 & 2 o'clock for the front knobs.
The amps software controls the "Output Gain" which you will see with the software meters.
Ideally you want a good balance with both to avoid distortion of the source.
For what we are doing you will find suitable gain is very much linked to the frequency used. So a punchy bass like 40-50Hz you will not want it taken much higher in dB as it is generally on most tactile quite strong anyways.
You can actually find in some cases you will increase the gain with a filter/curve but then use the PEQ to reduce certain frequencies within that slope. Part of this is related to the units being used and how they output specific frequency bands to other units. What makes the DSP features good is being able to modify and control the frequencies so that the character output of the tactile being used is more to your preference. The tuning benefits are nice to have.
Applications of usage would be reducing vibes that cause reverb on your rig, or boosting dB to frequencies that your tactile does not produce so well. We still cant however take a unit that is not great with over 100Hz and then give 100Hz +15dB via PEQ to then make that unit perform beyond its own operating capacity.
(3)
Thankfully the amp will power on with the last used settings. It wont autosave or over-write saved settings unless you save changes made to a profile.
You can save profiles also to a folder on your PC (recommended) I have all too often been working on a profile and hit "Store" instead of "Recall" and then mistakenly over-write what may of been a good saved profile. We should later confirm if saved profiles from iNuke work on NXD?
If so then a user can just load another users profiles by clicking to load from PC and once loaded save to a slot on the amp.
(4)
Some cards do have better output than others, it shouldn't cause interference but you would be able to see any interference with special software or hardware that shows you the audio output. I do not know if this side of things interests you but it is a very good tool for seeing the audio and learning or helping to build better effects.
Audio Monitoring Options
You can get PC software and free limited demos for FFT and spectrum analyzers. Some of those may be old but Span I believe is popular. If you have the patience to look more into such.
Having looked into the PC DAW options I found It can, however, be easier on Android tablet or iPad but require additional hardware costing anything from £20 upwards if interested?
iPad in particular over the last few years has become a HUGE interfacing tool for musicians and the pro-audio-community. I am still learning but what it offers in certain apps with a supported (audio interface) is amazing. A stereo/interface unit would let you visually see what any 2 channels are outputting and then use this as a tool to determine the combined output all your effects are creating. It depends how far into it all you want to learn or go.
iPad compatible Hardware Example:
2 Channel Budget Version (4 & More Channels available/cost more)
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Hello and thanks for your comments. This thread is a real goldmine, but difficult to find all the nuggets.
No, I didn't purchase Simvibe. I decided to try SimHub after lots of good reports around the web. Very impressed so far and worth the donation. So I'm not running any 'corners', just using SimHub in front/back mode right now.
No, I didn't purchase so much. 1x NX1000D, and 2x Mini-LFEs. I'm not unhappy. But never having experienced tactile, I had a perception the mini-lfe's would be a bit stronger, but I am learning.
Since my first post I've made some adjustments, and things are quite a bit better now (sorry, I know pics would be better, but I don't have an easy way to do that. Maybe will add some tomorrow), I have:
- installed one of the mini-lfe's directly to the bottom (upside down) of my Sparco seat. Just drilled 3 holes, ran an M8 tap through the 3 buttkicker mounting holes (seems to thread ok for M8 actually), and then used some flat head M8 screws from the top (through the seat bottom, and into the threaded buttkicker mount holes). She's directly tight up to the bottom of the seat now. No brackets, no boards, nothing. Just buttkicker to seat-bottom. No isolation so far. Maybe that wasn't a good idea, but seems pretty good to me so far. I was just not sure if there was a consensus to mount it to the back of the seat instead. But..... decision taken.
- I've moved the second one as well. Tried various places on the P1-X pedal deck, but nothing was satisfactory. I have the CSPv3 pedals, and they have rubber pads on the bottom. I suspect those are serving as a sort of isolation between the pedals and the pedal deck, limiting any vibration coming to the pedals. I read some of your earlier posts where you suspected that the Gamer 2 had the perception of more power, due to the leverage of the mounting arm. I thought about that, and decided to try something....
- This is temporary, but actually seems not bad. Definitely better than when I mounted the mini-LFE to the bottom of the pedal deck. I actually mounted it to the leading front edge of the 40/160 profile that the pedals are mounted to. I used the long 'slots' and just mounted it so the mini-lfe is upright (not sideways), but hanging out the front leading-edge of the pedal deck. Hard to describe. But I kinda thought that having it out front, might just amplify the vibration a bit, do to a bit of leverage from it hanging off the front edge. It's not so bad actually. Not great, but definitely I can feel the effects much better now, than before. The seat one definitely feels more powerful now, but I've found I can balance with the channel volumes on the amp a bit.
So, for now, I'm actually quite happy. I have a lot to learn about the amp, and I assure you I will be going through your recommendations carefully. Actually, I've been scanning all the history of this thread..... I'm on about page 40...... there's just so much info here.
Have a look at the other thread going on right now on Amps in this forum. Personally, I'm using a 10A 24v power supply from Amazon for $40, but in that other thread there are links to power supply enclosures which look really good for half the price.
I will buy one of these and do some comparison testing. On paper it's solid in that it's got 2xTP3116 chips so in terms of frequency response it should do well. I'll hold out for results, but I imagine this will end up on my list as a solid "easy to use and great bang for the buck", but won't be able to knock my current favorite off the top spot in terms of "will run hard all day long without overheating the shaker or amp".
Do you have Isolation built into this design? If these brackets mount to the seat, and the shakers mount to the bracket there should be isolation between all this and the rig itself.
It doesn't seem to be common from what I have seen, but making a shaker part of the weight bearing makes sense to me. Aurasounds are built like bricks. If there's any way you can reconfigure to have your seat sitting ON them then consider that. My seat has 4 mounts. I bolt the front ones to the rig and have rebuilt the rear of the rig so that the rear chair corners sit ON the Aurasounds. The Aurasounds are then mounted to a flat plate using M4 vibration isolators. This configuration broadcasts the shaker energy very efficiently with a strong stereo effect.
This setup does create some issues that have to be solved. Ideally the front chair mounts should be on isolators. I half assed it by adding a rubber bushing to the bolt but there is still some loss of energy into the rig itself. It also does require those front mounts to be good and solid because hard braking does create a certain amount of twisting force. Still - I don't feel like I'm losing any rigidity and the efficiency gains are massive over the frame mount I did before I had time to do this rebuild.. probably 5x.
Thanks for your reply. Yes, I have isolated the seat and brackets from the rig using 20mm(h)x30mm(w) rubber mounts. They're visible on my previous post if you look closely for them. I'm hoping they'll work well as they've dampened any vibrations coming from the wheel or V3 pedal motors that were coming through my seat.
I've considered so many different options before going down the route of using these aluminum mounting brackets. I had read previously about you sitting the chair on the transducers, do you have a photo you could share?
I don't really have the same option with how my rig's setup. I can hopefully finalise the design and get the brackets made up this coming week. I've started to play around with the amp, transducers and Simhub this weekend. After reading so much on here and finally putting it in to practice, everything seems to make a little more sense. No doubt I'll be back in the near future seeking further advice and hopefully sharing some feedback of how my mounting solution has worked out.
PS - Thanks for your recent guide on budget amps, it really was a big help for a newcomer like me.
Mr Latte
Premium
@Atak_Kat
Through the thread (part of my own journey posted on here) it transitions from testing done with Simvibe, SSW, Game Audio and now focused more on Simhub/Shakeit usage. Sorry for the confusion with your rig, at times I may have different people I respond too (some in PM) and I get confused trying to remember what configuration people have. Images make that easier to keep track of peoples own rigs.
If you end up with some tactile that are inverted and some that are mounted normally. Set the amp to switch the inverted units to 180 degrees. This will keep them all in sync.
@Brutal Deluxe
Just getting back to what you showed and queried.
If the seat is mounted and you have the transducers attached to a plate that is directly attached to the bottom of the seat then it is making the most direct contact possible for a stereo separated pair that you can do with larger units.
With bucket type seats that use seat risers. If you trace how the vibes then go into the seat what it comes down to is only the 4 bolts mounting the seat to the risres.
How To Improve This:
Between the seat riser where the bolt inserts use either a combination of M8 metal washers with a rubber washer on the inside towards seat (so not to mark it). It depends on your seat but you can increase the contact region to help also make a larger diameter/area than just the bolt alone for contact with the body of the seat and the riser.
Some seat risers may have smaller gaps than others.
I illustrate this other option often as few seem to make use of the contact area. When the plates are mounted see to have some form of contact substance/material touching the underside of the seat. You may be able to do this with a small metal layers and then do a few neoprene layers to help fit the shape/curve of the seat. Just depends on the gap but use some polestyrn jammed in below the seat and the plates to give you an idea of the shape needed.
Mounting of larger transducers/kickers
We can also use a thin neoprene layer to help dampen a little the tactile if a unit is too strong with direct bolting to a seat. This may also help reduce reverb noise it creates.
I even see some rigs with the large BK bolted to a seat but guys, take note here. The official mounting brackets BK themselves use do not have the bottom/piston region of the BK touching a surface. This must be for a reason? Some sim companies make plates and I've notice no holes, just pointing this out.
BK LFE BK Concert & BK Advance Installation Plates all for some reason have holes/gap at the piston region, why goto the bother of adding holes/gap?
With the large BK you want as much of the main feet in contact with the surface you are bolting too but consider a thin metal layer to help raise the piston region a few mm away from any contact surface.
See this mount for BK Mini that also has a hole for the piston region. For plates being used for Piston based transducers, I would consider having a cut hole or at least ensure the main body of the piston section cannot make contact with the mounting surface.
Additional To Consider:
What I would recommend as well is to consider testing two exciters also underneath the seat. I have not seen someone do this but it may be very good to use for additional effects and better high frequency detailing as the Aura are quite limited with this.
I have a (little used) NSG20 amp I will offer for a good price if you are interested. I ended up opting to go for 2x rack mount amps (EPQ304) to power my exciters.
Through the thread (part of my own journey posted on here) it transitions from testing done with Simvibe, SSW, Game Audio and now focused more on Simhub/Shakeit usage. Sorry for the confusion with your rig, at times I may have different people I respond too (some in PM) and I get confused trying to remember what configuration people have. Images make that easier to keep track of peoples own rigs.
If you end up with some tactile that are inverted and some that are mounted normally. Set the amp to switch the inverted units to 180 degrees. This will keep them all in sync.
@Brutal Deluxe
Just getting back to what you showed and queried.
If the seat is mounted and you have the transducers attached to a plate that is directly attached to the bottom of the seat then it is making the most direct contact possible for a stereo separated pair that you can do with larger units.
With bucket type seats that use seat risers. If you trace how the vibes then go into the seat what it comes down to is only the 4 bolts mounting the seat to the risres.
How To Improve This:
Between the seat riser where the bolt inserts use either a combination of M8 metal washers with a rubber washer on the inside towards seat (so not to mark it). It depends on your seat but you can increase the contact region to help also make a larger diameter/area than just the bolt alone for contact with the body of the seat and the riser.
Some seat risers may have smaller gaps than others.
I illustrate this other option often as few seem to make use of the contact area. When the plates are mounted see to have some form of contact substance/material touching the underside of the seat. You may be able to do this with a small metal layers and then do a few neoprene layers to help fit the shape/curve of the seat. Just depends on the gap but use some polestyrn jammed in below the seat and the plates to give you an idea of the shape needed.
Mounting of larger transducers/kickers
We can also use a thin neoprene layer to help dampen a little the tactile if a unit is too strong with direct bolting to a seat. This may also help reduce reverb noise it creates.
I even see some rigs with the large BK bolted to a seat but guys, take note here. The official mounting brackets BK themselves use do not have the bottom/piston region of the BK touching a surface. This must be for a reason? Some sim companies make plates and I've notice no holes, just pointing this out.
BK LFE BK Concert & BK Advance Installation Plates all for some reason have holes/gap at the piston region, why goto the bother of adding holes/gap?
With the large BK you want as much of the main feet in contact with the surface you are bolting too but consider a thin metal layer to help raise the piston region a few mm away from any contact surface.
See this mount for BK Mini that also has a hole for the piston region. For plates being used for Piston based transducers, I would consider having a cut hole or at least ensure the main body of the piston section cannot make contact with the mounting surface.
Additional To Consider:
What I would recommend as well is to consider testing two exciters also underneath the seat. I have not seen someone do this but it may be very good to use for additional effects and better high frequency detailing as the Aura are quite limited with this.
I have a (little used) NSG20 amp I will offer for a good price if you are interested. I ended up opting to go for 2x rack mount amps (EPQ304) to power my exciters.
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Here's how I've mounted my mini-lfes. I'm quite happy at the moment. Probably will get sucked into the world of 'more', but no disappointment for now.
The under-seat. I was able to tap the 3 mounting holes with an M8 tap quite easily. Drilled 3 holes in the seat bottom (Sparco) and just attached it with 3 M8 screws from the seat base. I used flat heads (extras from the P1 rig), and with the seat cushion don't feel them at all. Seat sliders work fine still, and there's lots of clearance between the bottom of the buttkicker and the rear 40/160 crossmember of the P1. I don't have any isolation right now at any part. *IF* I will do anything, I'm thinking to just put some sort of rubber washers where the seat attaches to the seat brackets. That's the first place any vibration could be going back into the rest of the frame, but so far I don't perceive a need.
(note in the photo, the black Sparco seat back is really shiny, reflecting the tile floor and part of the buttkicker, in case that's confusing in the pic...)
Here's how I've got the front one right now. I found that mounting it under the pedal deck was quite useless. Just couldn't really feel anything. On top, the CSPv3 pedals have rubber feet, and I wonder if that's serving as a sort of isolation that I don't want. Reading lots of the older posts here, and the idea of leverage, I thought to try and mount it hanging out the front end as in the pic. It's much better and could probably be even stronger if I would fabricate something to get the weight even a bit more forward. I certainly have read the opinions of Mr. Latte on this leverage concept, but in my case it's a really good solution so far. It's taken something that was mostly useless, and turned it into something that works quite well (for me), without opening a pandora's box. I also have this front channel of the amp just turned up one notch higher than the rear which helps to balance them a bit.
I also did some EQ adjustments in the NX100D amp as Mr.Latte recommend. I did find that it helped, but I chose to use a 'slope' on the EQ a bit longer.
Also, I don't know if this is correct or not, but I turned on the limit in the amp, so that both channels are limited to 250w each. I think that's the rating for the BK mini-lfes.
SimHub is quite a nice software. Currently I'm using:
- Front/Rear
- Engine Vibration @35%, and I like the 'grainy' option
- Gear Shift @85%, with 40Hz. I set the neutral debouncing delay to zero, and shortened up the pulse duration to 25ms. I run it with the High priority option checked.
- RPMs at 35%, with range of 30 to 65Hz and some added white noise +/-15Hz. I like the result it feels like an engine rumbling a bit rough when the car is idling (and it's quite strong even at the 35% I have it on). I know that might not be correct for high-tech cars and engines.... but I like it anyway.
- Road Impacts 75% at 40Hz with also some white noise +/- 7Hz. I put a bit of Gamma on the curve and a threshold of 5. Still experimenting with this one.
All other effects are off in SimHub.
The under-seat. I was able to tap the 3 mounting holes with an M8 tap quite easily. Drilled 3 holes in the seat bottom (Sparco) and just attached it with 3 M8 screws from the seat base. I used flat heads (extras from the P1 rig), and with the seat cushion don't feel them at all. Seat sliders work fine still, and there's lots of clearance between the bottom of the buttkicker and the rear 40/160 crossmember of the P1. I don't have any isolation right now at any part. *IF* I will do anything, I'm thinking to just put some sort of rubber washers where the seat attaches to the seat brackets. That's the first place any vibration could be going back into the rest of the frame, but so far I don't perceive a need.
(note in the photo, the black Sparco seat back is really shiny, reflecting the tile floor and part of the buttkicker, in case that's confusing in the pic...)
Here's how I've got the front one right now. I found that mounting it under the pedal deck was quite useless. Just couldn't really feel anything. On top, the CSPv3 pedals have rubber feet, and I wonder if that's serving as a sort of isolation that I don't want. Reading lots of the older posts here, and the idea of leverage, I thought to try and mount it hanging out the front end as in the pic. It's much better and could probably be even stronger if I would fabricate something to get the weight even a bit more forward. I certainly have read the opinions of Mr. Latte on this leverage concept, but in my case it's a really good solution so far. It's taken something that was mostly useless, and turned it into something that works quite well (for me), without opening a pandora's box. I also have this front channel of the amp just turned up one notch higher than the rear which helps to balance them a bit.
I also did some EQ adjustments in the NX100D amp as Mr.Latte recommend. I did find that it helped, but I chose to use a 'slope' on the EQ a bit longer.
Also, I don't know if this is correct or not, but I turned on the limit in the amp, so that both channels are limited to 250w each. I think that's the rating for the BK mini-lfes.
SimHub is quite a nice software. Currently I'm using:
- Front/Rear
- Engine Vibration @35%, and I like the 'grainy' option
- Gear Shift @85%, with 40Hz. I set the neutral debouncing delay to zero, and shortened up the pulse duration to 25ms. I run it with the High priority option checked.
- RPMs at 35%, with range of 30 to 65Hz and some added white noise +/-15Hz. I like the result it feels like an engine rumbling a bit rough when the car is idling (and it's quite strong even at the 35% I have it on). I know that might not be correct for high-tech cars and engines.... but I like it anyway.
- Road Impacts 75% at 40Hz with also some white noise +/- 7Hz. I put a bit of Gamma on the curve and a threshold of 5. Still experimenting with this one.
All other effects are off in SimHub.
Mr Latte
Premium
Isolation to decouple the seat and pedal platforms will ALWAYS help.
The better the isolation used the more it will contain the energy, cheapo ebay isolators may be okay for basic tactile. However, I think we need to consider more professional applications if we start adding on much more powerful tactile with far greater energy.
You have to start somewhere and testing different options is a good thing but I see much greater potential with a well designed and isolated platform for the pedals and seat to use.
For some vibration noise is a huge problem so using specialist materials is an additional option.
I have shown in this thread these can be different materials for a)vibrations and b)sound deadening.
It appears multi-layer options are used for professional installations.
Please post an image of the amp settings you use for the BK Mini it helps others
Leverage - Potential Pros/Cons?
Leverage to my understanding increases the dB but it may also add harmonics being output even from a single tone. To some extent like an added distortion to the original output frequency/tone.
I tried with some experimenting to replicate this by increasing bass output and gain levels like mechanical leverage may apply. Note this is not scientific or accurate just a means of trying to see and understand more what potentially happens with a mechanical multiplier.
40Hz Tone
40Hz Tone With Very High Gain/Bass
Yes, this will give a stronger felt sensation. My own issues with applying leverage is that in doing this we may lose felt definition in specific frequencies we may want to be stronger in effects than others. Yet for most Mini LFE users the focus seems to go towards achieving increased output not accuracy or definition.
Also when new into tactile I think its a bit like motion rigs you run with high settings for the "thrill" aspect and then gradually with increased usage and tuning start to be more focused on the quality than strength.
Some leverage may be okay but how much can or should be applied with no drawbacks in output definition? So many factors are involved, even down to the number of active effects on the channel, what effects these are regards their operation/timing and what frequencies are being used.
So yes on cheaper budget/tactile that often has a primary desire for more energy and that may be limited in the definition of bass it produces with a fairly narrow frequency range. It will accomplish outputting a stronger sensation but that however does not mean it is still accurate to the originally generated source output.
Factors Worth Considering:
To properly analyze vibrations on a rig, we would need industrial level equipment that for a single USB sensor to connect to PC or iPad/IPhone can cost hundreds of £/$. Faber Acoustical on iPad is industrial/professional compatible software for this as well as monitoring audio that I use sometimes.
Ask yourself this, if adding leverage was always the ideal solution for performance with no drawbacks, then why does every manufacturer of transducers not offer a leverage-based mount or installation option?
I would say that adding leverage is not a substitute for a better or more upmarket model that has the increased output and energy without any modification or mechanical leverage needed but its down to the user to go with what they want for their own rigs.
What I will add is that if we take the scenario of two identical rigs. One with Mini LFE installed in a normal fashion with a created profile that works well for them. The other with the same Mini LFE units but now all installed with leverage then I very much doubt the felt sensation of the effects will be maintained or the two identical rigs the same. It is likely that the rig using leverage would need very different settings applied for the effects. It may still feel stronger as well but it will very likely have less definition between different frequencies or frequencies that vary in their dB from the various generated effects being used.
Try this, listen to music on speakers/headphones then crank all the bass frequencies. How good will the detail be in the music, yet it will have loads of booming bass. With leverage, I think this may be a similar factor to consider, you gain with more bass energy but may indeed lose out in individual frequency detailing and then feel less variation or end up with several effects feeling similar.
Take note on your journey into tactile, that max or high volumes for all effects and frequencies used is not usually the best way to getting the best results. We need variation in their feeling.
Perception also varies just like volume with music one persons perception may differ to another as to what is too loud/strong.
The better the isolation used the more it will contain the energy, cheapo ebay isolators may be okay for basic tactile. However, I think we need to consider more professional applications if we start adding on much more powerful tactile with far greater energy.
You have to start somewhere and testing different options is a good thing but I see much greater potential with a well designed and isolated platform for the pedals and seat to use.
For some vibration noise is a huge problem so using specialist materials is an additional option.
I have shown in this thread these can be different materials for a)vibrations and b)sound deadening.
It appears multi-layer options are used for professional installations.
Please post an image of the amp settings you use for the BK Mini it helps others
Leverage - Potential Pros/Cons?
Leverage to my understanding increases the dB but it may also add harmonics being output even from a single tone. To some extent like an added distortion to the original output frequency/tone.
I tried with some experimenting to replicate this by increasing bass output and gain levels like mechanical leverage may apply. Note this is not scientific or accurate just a means of trying to see and understand more what potentially happens with a mechanical multiplier.
40Hz Tone
40Hz Tone With Very High Gain/Bass
Yes, this will give a stronger felt sensation. My own issues with applying leverage is that in doing this we may lose felt definition in specific frequencies we may want to be stronger in effects than others. Yet for most Mini LFE users the focus seems to go towards achieving increased output not accuracy or definition.
Also when new into tactile I think its a bit like motion rigs you run with high settings for the "thrill" aspect and then gradually with increased usage and tuning start to be more focused on the quality than strength.
Some leverage may be okay but how much can or should be applied with no drawbacks in output definition? So many factors are involved, even down to the number of active effects on the channel, what effects these are regards their operation/timing and what frequencies are being used.
So yes on cheaper budget/tactile that often has a primary desire for more energy and that may be limited in the definition of bass it produces with a fairly narrow frequency range. It will accomplish outputting a stronger sensation but that however does not mean it is still accurate to the originally generated source output.
Factors Worth Considering:
To properly analyze vibrations on a rig, we would need industrial level equipment that for a single USB sensor to connect to PC or iPad/IPhone can cost hundreds of £/$. Faber Acoustical on iPad is industrial/professional compatible software for this as well as monitoring audio that I use sometimes.
Ask yourself this, if adding leverage was always the ideal solution for performance with no drawbacks, then why does every manufacturer of transducers not offer a leverage-based mount or installation option?
I would say that adding leverage is not a substitute for a better or more upmarket model that has the increased output and energy without any modification or mechanical leverage needed but its down to the user to go with what they want for their own rigs.
What I will add is that if we take the scenario of two identical rigs. One with Mini LFE installed in a normal fashion with a created profile that works well for them. The other with the same Mini LFE units but now all installed with leverage then I very much doubt the felt sensation of the effects will be maintained or the two identical rigs the same. It is likely that the rig using leverage would need very different settings applied for the effects. It may still feel stronger as well but it will very likely have less definition between different frequencies or frequencies that vary in their dB from the various generated effects being used.
Try this, listen to music on speakers/headphones then crank all the bass frequencies. How good will the detail be in the music, yet it will have loads of booming bass. With leverage, I think this may be a similar factor to consider, you gain with more bass energy but may indeed lose out in individual frequency detailing and then feel less variation or end up with several effects feeling similar.
Take note on your journey into tactile, that max or high volumes for all effects and frequencies used is not usually the best way to getting the best results. We need variation in their feeling.
Perception also varies just like volume with music one persons perception may differ to another as to what is too loud/strong.
Last edited:
I think that's *exactly* where I'm at. I like the 'extra', but I'm not really sure what to do with it, yet. I feel like a high school math student that stumbled into an advanced calculus college class, to be honest.... But that's OK for now. I'm sure it will come, but for now, I'm just happy racing with a little extra smile for the fun factor!!
Here's the amp settings I'm using so far (I will also try to put Ch B with 180deg as you suggest, since this is the one that is upside down under the chair). Please anyone that is looking for advise, consider that I don't know at all what I'm talking about, so the settings below might not be right for you. But I'm happier now, than I was 2 days OK, and racing is a lot of fun!
>Ch A is front, and I have the volume knob about at 2:30 position. I put a bit more gain here 6.5 as well.
> Ch B is rear, and volume knob about 2:00. Gain I have at 6.0. I'm still experimenting with this. I found 12 too noisy. Somewhere between 6 and 8 seems to be OK so far.
Thanks again for all the help. After finally getting through over 100 pages of this thread (at least skimming) it is clear this rabbit hole goes very, very, deep. But I do thank you for what must have been a thousand hours of your time, considering all your posts with their detail and attention.
Mr Latte - Thank you very much for the detailed reply. This all makes good sense and you've definitely raised further points I hadn't considered.@Brutal Deluxe
Just getting back to what you showed and queried.
If the seat is mounted and you have the transducers attached to a plate that is directly attached to the bottom of the seat then it is making the most direct contact possible for a stereo separated pair that you can do with larger units.
With bucket type seats that use seat risers. If you trace how the vibes then go into the seat what it comes down to is only the 4 bolts mounting the seat to the risres.
How To Improve This:
Between the seat riser where the bolt inserts use either a combination of M8 metal washers with a rubber washer on the inside towards seat (so not to mark it). It depends on your seat but you can increase the contact region to help also make a larger diameter/area than just the bolt alone for contact with the body of the seat and the riser.
Some seat risers may have smaller gaps than others.
I illustrate this other option often as few seem to make use of the contact area. When the plates are mounted see to have some form of contact substance/material touching the underside of the seat. You may be able to do this with a small metal layers and then do a few neoprene layers to help fit the shape/curve of the seat. Just depends on the gap but use some polestyrn jammed in below the seat and the plates to give you an idea of the shape needed.
Mounting of larger transducers/kickers
We can also use a thin neoprene layer to help dampen a little the tactile if a unit is too strong with direct bolting to a seat. This may also help reduce reverb noise it creates.
I even see some rigs with the large BK bolted to a seat but guys, take note here. The official mounting brackets BK themselves use do not have the bottom/piston region of the BK touching a surface. This must be for a reason? Some sim companies make plates and I've notice no holes, just pointing this out.
BK LFE BK Concert & BK Advance Installation Plates all for some reason have holes/gap at the piston region, why goto the bother of adding holes/gap?
With the large BK you want as much of the main feet in contact with the surface you are bolting too but consider a thin metal layer to help raise the piston region a few mm away from any contact surface.
See this mount for BK Mini that also has a hole for the piston region. For plates being used for Piston based transducers, I would consider having a cut hole or at least ensure the main body of the piston section cannot make contact with the mounting surface.
Additional To Consider:
What I would recommend as well is to consider testing two exciters also underneath the seat. I have not seen someone do this but it may be very good to use for additional effects and better high frequency detailing as the Aura are quite limited with this.
I have a (little used) NSG20 amp I will offer for a good price if you are interested. I ended up opting to go for 2x rack mount amps (EPQ304) to power my exciters.
Seat to Riser Connections - Thankfully the sides of my SimLab Speed 1 are quite flat and vertical. They sit tight within the riser and give a good contact area. Adding washers would reduce the contact area in my case but I completely understand how this could benefit others. Finally, something about this mounting solution has naturally worked in my favour
Transducers Touching Underside of Seat - I really hadn't considered this. I've actually been planning this out and making adjustments so they don't touch. It's easy for me adjust things slightly so they do and thankfully I have an 8mm thick sheet of neoprene rubber left over from a recent project. I'll test the setup both ways to see what works best. The seat is quite tilted and curved so I'm not sure how large a contact area I can achieve, but will definitely try it. Should I be concerned about this reducing the stereo effect?... I'll test it both ways anyway.
Piston Holes - I am aware of these on brackets but thought they would only be needed on larger transducers and wouldn't be necessary for my AuraSound AST-2B-4's. I can easily add a 25mm diameter hole to the design and I guess there's no harm in doing so. Thanks for raising this point.
Adding Exciters - My next plan is to add exciters directly to the seat, probably Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4's. I'm keen to add them to rear, probably 2 near kidneys and 2 at shoulders. I was interested in your recent post about creating different strengths of bumps to different parts of the body and would like to try this. I'm happy to test a couple near the front of the base, are there any effects that you would expect to work particularly well with them positioned like that?
NSG20 Amp - My plan is to test the amp properly once the AuraSound transducers have been mounted. If it performs well and doesn't have any heating issues, then I'd be happy to purchase one off you. If it doesn't perform as expected, then I'll look at a better amp for these transducers and will use my NSG20 to power some exciters instead. Thanks for the offer, I'll let you know how I get on over the next week or two.
Edit - 3rd March - Sorry, I've just realised that I have an NSG15 Amp not an NSG20. I got confused and though we were talking about the same model :/
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Mr Latte
Premium
I mean to still install the units hanging underneath the plate but the surface of the plate facing the underneath the seat to use materials to fill this gap a little for direct energy also to go into the bottom of the seat. Keep enough distance of them apart, the idea is to help improve the stereo effect but only testing will determine if its a success.
It probably is more needed for piston based units. I suppose if you ever intented to potentially upgrade then you could have the holes pre/drilled to suit or just modify at a later time if needed.
These should help boost the detail and let you specifically place effects.
For under the knees they could help highlight small bumps, tyre/surface feel and wheel-slip.
The beauty is you have options to place whatever effects you want to them and testing will determine what you like. I just personally think it might add to the immersion as having additional channels always gives you more possibilities. You may even want to use them for mono based effect like high rpm detailing.
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