Is VR dead?

[gamma123152]

The BSB does have larger FOV than the G2. The biggest improvement is horizontal. It is clearer edge to edge but the outer 5-10% drops off in quality.

It also has no moire or red shift to compensate for.

Once again don't discount running it at 90Hz.

Also you won't have any Drift during a race like some report with a G2. Once your headset is centered, it will stay centered.

I'm curious if it will behave like the Index does in iRacing where it remembers your center position between reboots and when you put your headset on in game you are already centered in the cockpit.

I understood that it has some color shift/chromatic aberration outside the center. So I wouldn't say upfront "no red shift" because it seems to have some color shift.

But I think/expect that it's a upgrade over the G2 on most other subjects but especially on the blacks, colors, sweet spot and of course the resolution if you use 75hz because the Hz is clearly a downgrade.

Big screen would be great if they made a v2.0 version with adjustable IPD, breathing foam that works with every face and full 90hz support. This would make the HMD slightly bigger but then it would still be super small and light compared to the competition. But these improvements make it more appealing for most buyer's I think.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Big screen would be great if they made a v2.0 version with adjustable IPD, breathing foam that works with every face

I completely disagree, because that isn't possible. If you watched my video you would understand why. In a nutshell, because the BSB is small it requires very precise placement of it's displays in front of your eyes and a generic interface doesn't even remotely allow for that.

Generic interfaces guarantee some tilt of the lens relative to your eyes. Most people have asymmetric IPD with one eye closer to the center of their face than the other and will not center your face precisely vertically.

Everything you asked for would kill this product and keep it from doing what it does well.

To have a generic interface requires having a much larger headset with a large eyebox. Currently there is no way to have very small and generic.

Over time the technology will shrink in size, but it will take many years. Using existing technology, they are doing this the right way to reach their goals.

You are also painting a lot of things as black and white rather than even allowing the possibility that something is actually quite good even if not equal when comparing 75 vs 90Hz.

 

[gamma123152]

I completely disagree, because that isn't possible. If you watched my video you would understand why. In a nutshell, because the BSB is small it requires very precise placement of it's displays in front of your eyes and a generic interface doesn't even remotely allow for that.

Generic interfaces guarantee some tilt of the lens relative to your eyes. Most people have asymmetric IPD with one eye closer to the center of their face than the other and will not center your face precisely vertically.

Everything you asked for would kill this product and keep it from doing what it does well.

Over time the technology will shrink in size, but it will take many years. Using existing technology, they are doing this the right way to reach their goals.

Oh I didn't know that it was a technical limitation. Yes then I agree with you that it's not an option of course.

My point with this was that these improvements (which I thought that they were a small change, but it clearly isn't) would make the BSB more appealing to much more users. Because I see a lot of potential in this product but these limitations are for me personally to much.

 

[RCHeliguy]

but these limitations are for me personally to much.

Than it is very convenient that you have already purchased something else that you like

 

[gamma123152]

Than it is very convenient that you have already purchased something else that you like

For sure, but the VR adventure never stops

 

[Deleted member 197115]

So the limitation is in absolutely unnecessary nano size of the headset. My reading glasses have bigger "eyebox".
I understand they drive it as a major selling point, pure marketing, and yes, public can benefit from more comfortable and smaller headset, sure, but what is the practical point of extreme dwarfing like that?
Ready Player One had bigger HMD.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Was asking mbucchia about the improvements made by DFR in different titles.

mbucchia: "You can get DFR in iRacing and ACC via OpenXR Toolkit but it's VRS injection so it's not as good."

One guy did a test in ACC that was basically switch on/ switch off with no other changes. He saw 18-19%.

I've been told if varies by title and I believe it was Bernard Burger saying iRacing is closer to 10% if that.

mbucchia said improvements with VRS injection are in the range of 10-25%.

This is basically what most titles are limited to.

With Quad views that are more like native DFR he is sometimes seeing a DOUBLING of frame rates.

That's what the Aero is seeing with DCS right now. He also mentioned Pavlov being a title that uses that.

It will be interesting to see how this goes over time. There is a lot of promise, but still one plugin per title per headset for now and most are using VRS injection.

 

[wajdi]

They don’t ship to Israel .

 

[RCHeliguy]

They don’t ship to Israel .

I just asked about this. Currently South Korea, Israel and other places have regulatory requirements that they haven't had time to work through and they aren't sure when they will have time to get that done.

Things are starting to go viral for them and they are already going to have to ramp things up to meet demand. They are not a large company.

It appears they are on a trajectory that is well past the small niche many of us originally thought this would be.

I'm very happy for their success, but a company can also be a victim of their own success as well. Fingers crossed that they can handle scaling up and growing their company to meet this demand.

 

[wajdi]

I tried the Crystal for the last time today before repackaging it.,. Its always a good idea a give last chance.
After 30min trying to find a better comfort .., I found a good position to put it on my face with the use of small towel which I put it between my forehead and the headset to reduce the pressure and it helped a little.
Tried it finally with rfactor2 for 30min:
1- IPD tried the setting from 58 to72 and I didn’t find any difference…. It’s like broken ?!

2- to make it run smooth with my 4090/13900K I have to reduce the SS to 70% on steam VR,
3- at 70% of SS with the Crystal it’s like 170% of SS of my G2( I can run my G2 with SS-170% with smooth 90fps).
4- yes the colors are much better on the Crystal. The black is much better and you can see it on the black dashboard of the Porsche .
5- thr FOV? Big disappointment. With my G2 FOV gasket mod the FOV of the G2 isn’t that smaller than the Crystal . The Vertical FOV of the Crystal is bigger than the G2 and it’s noticeable.
5- comfort .. the G2 Reverb with the Apache of is much much more comfortable than the Crystal.. I can play for 2 h without any problem… with the Crystal it’s the most uncomfortable headset I ever used .
6- headset tracking: big surprise! The inside outside tracking of the Crystal works very good. Tried it with medium intensity motion profile and for 30min I didn’t have any view drift ..
However i will return it because the comfort is big letdown for me. Even with Apache strap and the small towel there is a noticeable wobbling specially when there is a high speed sway/roll motion movements the headset push on my nose and that’s hurts as a hell.
Comfort is a big issue with this bulky headset . It doesn’t worth the 2100$..

 

[wajdi]

Another couple of points:
1- sweet spot is much better than my G2 reverb.
2- with motion system there is a noticeable blurriness on the distance subjects maybe caused from the headset wobbling?!.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Sounds like G2 can still hold its own to wait over these half assed new HMDs before something truly worthy upgrade come along, if ever.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Sounds like G2 can still hold its own to wait over these half assed new HMDs before something truly worthy upgrade come along, if ever.

 

[wajdi]

Sounds like G2 can still hold its own to wait over these half assed new HMDs before something truly worthy upgrade come along, if ever.

Exactly!

 

[blekenbleu]

G2 can still hold its own

I intend to continue using later version of G1, with mura issue addressed,
until something usefully better:

• no Fresnel
• 3D color passthru
• eye tracking
• Thunderbolt 3
• ventilation

 

[gamma123152]

3- at 70% of SS with the Crystal it’s like 170% of SS of my G2( I can run my G2 with SS-170% with smooth 90fps).

I run all sims except ACC at 100% render resolution / 1.0 SS / 4315x5100px: AMS2, AC, RF2 all with 2xMSAA and I have 90fps/hz locked. And I got DR2 running at 90% render resolution/SS + 4xMSAA, 90fps/hz locked too. All sims with ~high/ultra settings mostly and only one fixed foveated rendering ring of 71% 16th resolution(not visible during racing, but without this it won't be possible). This while I could run the G2 at max 3400x3400px + 4/8xMSAA(needed with G2, otherwise way to much shimmering with that low resolution) with much smaller fixed foveated rendering rings(30% first ring+~67% last ring). The Crystal is way more efficiënt with my system/the exact same configuration BUT you must use OpenComposite/PimaxXR/OpenXR toolkit, with SteamVR you cannot get it working with good performance. This with a oced 4090/12700k. And the difference is sharpness is HUGE compared to the G2 in the end, I would say ~around 60% sharper, while keeping the same 90fps/hz locked.

2- with motion system there is a noticeable blurriness on the distance subjects maybe caused from the headset wobbling?!.

No. This is probably because you run the Crystal at 70% SS. This is not enough for a clear image and especially not in the far distance.

Sounds like G2 can still hold its own to wait over these half assed new HMDs before something truly worthy upgrade come along, if ever.

Nah. The upgrade of the Crystal compared to the G2 is HUGE, even bigger than I expected/wanted it to be. This while I experienced the Aero as a downgrade compared to the G2 on most subjects and a upgrade on some.

1- IPD tried the setting from 58 to72 and I didn’t find any difference…. It’s like broken ?!

This is because the sweetspot of the Crystal is huge, it takes way more time to find your correct IPD. But once you do (so keep trying to find it ! ) the images is MUCH sharper than when you have it wrong and it's also way more comfortable to your eyes when you use/found your correct IPD. So you've not seen what the Crystal is capable of yet, because this makes a big difference in the whole experience. It costed me a serious amount of time to be honest so I understand your initial surprise/thought about this but it's not broken.

5- comfort .. the G2 Reverb with the Apache of is much much more comfortable than the Crystal.. I can play for 2 h without any problem… with the Crystal it’s the most uncomfortable headset I ever used .

I can use the G2 for a way shorter period of time than the Crystal. I can use the Crystal for ~5 hours in a row non stop with zero issues. With the G2, the heat was getting to much and the pressure on my forehead too. Same for the friends that also tried the Crystal here(also for an long period of time..). So I really think that this differs a lot from person to person. Hopefully you can find a mod to make it really comfortable.

there is a noticeable wobbling specially when there is a high speed sway/roll motion movements

The wobbling could be solved with the mod that I showed in this thread before: "LICHIFIT Head Cushion Quest 2 Strap". It also gives you the benefit that you don't need to tighten the knob on the back so much so that you don't have pressure on your forehead (I have ZERO pressure on my forehead/I got the knob really loose and the HMD never gets out of place/position during races, without this mod I also had minor wobbling with only a buttkicker installed).

Once you tweak your sims to run at 100% render resolution+2xmsaa + you find your correct IPD + (most important) you find a way to get it working comfortable(if it's still possible within your return time then try the "LICHIFIT Head Cushion Quest 2 Strap", it's only 10 euro or something), then you have a nice upgrade. If you're not able to find a way to use it in a comfortable way than you can better send it back indeed.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

View attachment 682119

 

[blekenbleu]

improvements with VRS injection are in the range of 10-25%

VRS == Variable Rate Shading - mbucchia
Shading rate refers to the resolution at which pixel colors are calculated.

M$: "available only on DirectX 12" per-draw, within a draw or per-primitive;
foveated rendering can, using the VRS combiners, apply per-primitive VRS
to render faraway objects in a screenspace image at lower shading rate.

Nvidia VRS with helpful graphics and examples
"... VRS does work better for some render passes and effects and might not work well with others. It is content dependent so the domain knowledge of the application is very helpful. For example: in VR would want VRS for the environment, but not for text on menus (VRSS is the special case where you increase the quality so it would be beneficial to especially apply it to text).
Where (in screen space) you can make use of how much shading reduction via VRS is something the XR runtime knows best, as this depends on the lenses used etc." - OpenXR abstraction

 

[RCHeliguy]

"In a dog fight this is a game changing experience. "
"In a combat scenario it makes a lot of sense"

He also pointed out that the BSB is managing 75fps pretty solidly in DCS without foveated rendering. So once again empirically it seems to be running pretty efficiently. He went over a pretty dense map to try to get some frame drops and it looks like it was holding pretty close.

He said he didn't see the point in upgrading from the Aero or Crystal, but at 7 minutes in he mentioned that it was incredible that he could move his head around quickly and the headset didn't move at all. He also said that the visuals were definitely good enough.

That is exactly why people are looking at this headset. It will also be so much nicer in Rally games when I'm being shaken around! I can't wait!

Until they find a way to drop weight and get headsets a bit smaller in size, this might be the headset that I live with for a long time.

 

[gamma123152]

He said he didn't see the point in upgrading from the Aero or Crystal

Because it's a downgrade on all subjects except the size/form factor/nightgames/tracking.

He also said that the visuals were definitely good enough.

This is extremely subjective what is "good enough", he also said that the Aero and Crystal are "definitely more clear" and that it has a serious amount of glare. He said that has to compare it to the Reverb G2, and to me the Reverb G2 is a HUGE downgrade compared to the Crystal. He also said that: "you may not be blown away by the visuals, you need to spend plenty of time with it" which means that your mind needs to adopt to clearly lower quality visuals, he also said that the visuals are a "trade off" because of the form factor. So it's sounds quite disappointing to me all in all especially if you combine that with 75Hz which is enough for fligh sims probably (no experience) but not enough for sim racing. If you have no comfort issues with the Crystal then I see zero reasons to choose the BSB over it.