Is VR dead?

[RCHeliguy]

OK, he is purely speculating and then proposing what he would like to see in the next Aero. ( BTW I like his suggestions, premium headphones from the Index, OLED etc.. )

However, the fact that Varjo considers this a successful business venture proves that there is a market for enthusiast grade/cost headsets. Obviously you just need the price point high enough, which they have.

 

[Cooknn]

@32:20 its coming probably, one day I expect quite a lot from it tbh.

I made my wife watch that video @16:38 If you're serious about VR sim racing you need this headset. She said "He's getting paid to say that!", I told her I didn't think so. But they do get to play with the latest and greatest stuff. And he sounded sincere. I actually went back and forth with Mark before I pulled the trigger.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I made my wife watch that video @16:38 If you're serious about VR sim racing you need this headset. She said "He's getting paid to say that!", I told her I didn't think so. But they do get to play with the latest and greatest stuff. And he sounded sincere. I actually went back and forth with Mark before I pulled the trigger.

For racing and flight sims, I will agree that the Aero is likely the best available at the moment for many people depending on your personal preferences.

The Aero has a few deal breakers for me personally, but I still was tempted by their $300 off Christmas sale. ( Yes, I know the purchase price was discounted by the same amount as the sale price of the G2 )

I hate wearing headphones and really love having the off ear speakers on my Index. I also play enough room scale that the somewhat abbreviated vertical FOV would have bothered me, but I still respect the Aero as something I could enjoy under the right circumstances.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Headphones are very circumstantial thing, G2 off ears speakers (same design as Index) were leaking sound in and out, not something suitable for all environments.

 

[metalnwood]

I have to say I love my noise cancelling sony's. They really do a great job on anything that may come from motion or tactile but also quite comfy, small and light and light.

Being smaller is nice because they dont block half my head letting the fans do their work.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Headphones are very circumstantial thing, G2 off ears speakers (same design as Index) were leaking sound in and out, not something suitable for all environments.

With the G2 everything is "almost there". The off ear speakers are not nearly as adjustable as they are on the Index and I had to work hard to get mine positioned reasonably well. As a result they always seemed to sound better on the Index because they were exactly where I wanted them. The G2 was comfortable, but not as comfortable. If it had the lens distance adjustment knob like the Index I wouldn't have needed the ultra thin face pads on the FrankenFOV facial interface. I'll stop there, but the the compromises go on and on and on. Yeah, I know resolution... but the Index still has enough resolution to work well and everything else is as it should be.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Valve Index has the same resolution as Samsung Odyssey, and nobody talks about this headset anymore, it's in a rear view mirror of history, previous gen of now forgotten HMDs along with Oculus Rift, HTC Vive, Lenovo, etc.
How with all that power from new RTX 4090 you can still live with Index inferior resolution? It doesn't look like there will be another Index for at least few years, if ever.

Nice video comparing VARJO AERO vs INDEX vs REVERB G2

 

[Deleted member 197115]

BTW, your G2 that required modded face gasket, was it R1 or R2, seems like R2 addressed this problem, did you try to remove spacer. Starts at 7:05.

 

[Metla]

I removed my G2 speakers, then gutted them to see if I could fit them into my motorcycle helmet. That didn't work.

No loss though, They have horrible audio quality and just about any headphones or airbuds are far better.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I removed my G2 speakers, then gutted them to see if I could fit them into my motorcycle helmet. That didn't work.

No loss though, They have horrible audio quality and just about any headphones or airbuds are far better.

Didn't they use AKG speakers or it was Odyssey?
In any case I did not find them "horrible" for the intended application, but yes, some decent full size over ears headphones or good IEMs will beat them single handedly, but this is not unique to G2.
Wish they made them more easily removable with headphone jack though.

 

[gamma123152]

Yeah, I know resolution... but the Index still has enough resolution to work well and everything else is as it should be.

Not for me. The Reverb G2 doesn't even have enough resolution for me, even with supersampling at 120 percent (3400*3300px or something) and 8xmsaa it's still lacking sharpness/resolution. So I really cannot imagine to live with the resolution of the index. It's simply extremely outdated/of a other time period.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Not for me. The Reverb G2 doesn't even have enough resolution for me, even with supersampling at 120 percent (3400*3300px or something) and 8xmsaa it's still lacking sharpness/resolution. So I really cannot imagine to live with the resolution of the index. It's simply extremely outdated/of a other time period

The irony of what you are saying is this.

A little while back I mentioned how much I was enjoying that I could turn EVERYTHING up to Ultra in Dirt Rally 2 and that I was enjoying seeing all the little details that I could never see before. So far I'm very happy with my 4090.

To this I was told by some that all that was superfluous and that I would immediately ignore all this detail once I was in game. They had these effects turned down to support higher resolution.

So I could say the same thing about resolution. Once I'm in game, I'm focusing on driving, or game play I don't notice this.

For room scale shooting games running 120fps or 144fps gives you a serious advantage and I appreciate that as well.

But everyone has different ideas of what is important and I won't argue what you can live with. You do you

 

[RCHeliguy]

Interesting that he said the open source headset was about 70% done and that the new wireless system could actually handle the XTAL.

Once again the lack of Holy Grail. He mentioned the XTAL as being like Pimax but without all the distortion, unfortunately it is only 70fps, heavy and looks very bulky.

 

[gamma123152]

The irony of what you are saying is this.

A little while back I mentioned how much I was enjoying that I could turn EVERYTHING up to Ultra in Dirt Rally 2 and that I was enjoying seeing all the little details that I could never see before. So far I'm very happy with my 4090.

To this I was told by some that all that was superfluous and that I would immediately ignore all this detail once I was in game. They had these effects turned down to support higher resolution.

So I could say the same thing about resolution. Once I'm in game, I'm focusing on driving, or game play I don't notice this.

For room scale shooting games running 120fps or 144fps gives you a serious advantage and I appreciate that as well.

But everyone has different ideas of what is important and I won't argue what you can live with. You do you

I got both, most settings on Ultra in DR2 and 120 percent G2 resolution with 4xMSAA. And of course the eye accommodation mod with OpenXR toolkit. It looks absolutely amazing, the high resolution+settings changed the whole experience for me. I used to play it with the 3080TI with downscaling (FSR) on the G2 and pretty low settings to achieve the 90fps locked and I simply was not really there, it was not even close to as immersive as it is now with such high resolution and details. It's simply way more enjoyable gameplay wise. It's impossible to not experience the difference while driving.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I got both, most settings on Ultra in DR2 and 120 percent G2 resolution with 4xMSAA. And of course the eye accommodation mod with OpenXR toolkit. It looks absolutely amazing, the high resolution+settings changed the whole experience for me. I used to play it with the 3080TI with downscaling (FSR) on the G2 and pretty low settings to achieve the 90fps locked and I simply was not really there, it was not even close to as immersive as it is now with such high resolution and details. It's simply way more enjoyable gameplay wise. It's impossible to not experience the difference while driving.

I tried the G2 and I'm glad it's working well for you. I sold my G2 a few weeks ago because I couldn't live with it. It had far too many shortcomings that I cared about. For me the Index works much better.

It lost tracking with the G2 in rally with my D-Box motion system. The G2 would suddenly snap 90 degrees to the side when I was looking into a corner. This is a known issue experienced by many people with motion systems.

The comfort for the G2 isn't as good. I couldn't get the off ear speakers positioned as well. The FrankenFOV facial interface helped a lot, but required I use a very thin facial cushion. However, it was the tunnel vision breaking immersion that was the dealbreaker for me. I felt like I lost my 3D perspective with it. The Index has a noticeably larger FOV and most importantly you can use your eye balls to look around with in that FOV without the image getting blurry.

The G2 software issues and poor hand controllers were a pain. I got dongles and did my best to get my Index controllers working with it, but was never happy with the result. The G2 hand controllers are crap. Despite many people claiming they have their G2 working well, I've heard feedback from many others who have experienced the same issues I have.

The Index tracking is perfect. The hand controllers are excellent. The high frame rate works very well. There is no software futzing around with it. Everything just works reliably.

YMMV, but this was my experience and I finally gave up on the G2. For me personally it was not a good fit.

The G2 is a great value for the money and I'm glad it works well for many people.

 

[RCHeliguy]

BTW, your G2 that required modded face gasket, was it R1 or R2, seems like R2 addressed this problem, did you try to remove spacer. Starts at 7:05.

I had an R2 brand new from HP very recently.

Without the modded facial interface it was unusable to me. I had a WTF were they thinking reaction when I first tried it out.

From what I've seen on the DCS VR boards, there is almost an even split between people who consider it acceptable and those who do not. I have no idea exactly what caused that divide.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Let's go back through history to show a difference in priorities that might make this make a bit more sense.

5 years ago I was using an Oculus Rift and some were using the Samsung Odyssey.

5 years ago Oculus had many clear advantages and a couple disadvantages.

Better software efficiency, best reprojection engine, and software support.
Very nicely ergonomically designed hand controllers that worked off a single AA battery and lasted quite a long time. It had decent headphones and was a very comfortable lightweight headset to wear.

However It required cameras and had very noticeable screen door effect and lower resolution and the color was a bit washed out.

Basically back then the Rift just worked reliably without futzing and I enjoyed mine.


The Odyssey was basically the opposite.

It had better resolution, very little screen door and better color and didn't require cameras.

The WMR software was going through growing pains. It wasn't as efficient. Games were released that worked for the Rift but were not optimized for WMR or even SteamVR until months later. The hand controllers were crap, Inside out tracking had limitations and burned 2xAA batteries quickly. People made changes to the facial interface to make it more comfortable. etc..


So here we are years later and it looks like a very similar division exists today.

This isn't a right or wrong situation, but simply different priorities. Many here could care less about hand controllers for example and they matter to me. I have also historically used a system with less resolution because of other strengths that mattered to me. This is no different.

I had just posted this on my build thread for when I had some visitors over.

I have 3 stock Index facial interfaces that feel great. I can adjust the Index screen just shy of my eyelashes touching it to optimize FOV. No modifications required. They just work from the factory.

 

[gamma123152]

I tried the G2 and I'm glad it's working well for you. I sold my G2 a few weeks ago because I couldn't live with it. It had far too many shortcomings that I cared about. For me the Index works much better.

It lost tracking with the G2 in rally with my D-Box motion system. The G2 would suddenly snap 90 degrees to the side when I was looking into a corner. This is a known issue experienced by many people with motion systems.

The comfort for the G2 isn't as good. I couldn't get the off ear speakers positioned as well. The FrankenFOV facial interface helped a lot, but required I use a very thin facial cushion. However, it was the tunnel vision breaking immersion that was the dealbreaker for me. I felt like I lost my 3D perspective with it. The Index has a noticeably larger FOV and most importantly you can use your eye balls to look around with in that FOV without the image getting blurry.

The G2 software issues and poor hand controllers were a pain. I got dongles and did my best to get my Index controllers working with it, but was never happy with the result. The G2 hand controllers are crap. Despite many people claiming they have their G2 working well, I've heard feedback from many others who have experienced the same issues I have.

The Index tracking is perfect. The hand controllers are excellent. The high frame rate works very well. There is no software futzing around with it. Everything just works reliably.

YMMV, but this was my experience and I finally gave up on the G2. For me personally it was not a good fit.

The G2 is a great value for the money and I'm glad it works well for many people.

First issue tracking, I don't have that: I don't got a motion system. My G2 never loses tracking if I have 2-3 lights on in my room. The tracking is almost flawless for me(sometimes I have to clear the data, about once a month or two, otherwise it might move a little when it shouldn't).

Second issue, comfort: I immediately thought that the comfort of the G2 wasn't optimal, so I bought the comfort mod. After that the comfort was great for me.

Third issue, fov/blur: I don't experience that issue since I got used to moving my head in VR. Yes maybe it's indeed not natural to do but I got used to it. The FoV is okay for me and u got used to the tiny sweetspot that it indeed has.

Fourth issue, software: yes WMR initially had terrible software. But after I used and configured OpenXR with OpenXR toolkit: al my issues were solved. It runs rock stable now with great performance in all race sims. Before that it was a disaster with SteamVR/WMR etc.

Fifth issue, controllers: I bought the G2 without controllers so I don't have experience with them. I bought the G2 plus 2 base stations and index controllers. They work flawlessly for me together with games like half life alyx.

So in the end I don't have any of the issues that you described. But I can agree that its a BIG hassle to find everything out and to configure everything, it's wayyy to much hassle for the average user. So the G2 is surely indeed not for everyone.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Just be glad there are many to pick from so we can all find something that works for us.

One day we will have a comfortable headset with great resolution, large DOF, high frame rate, excellent tracking and a computer that can drive it well and software that makes it sing

Until that time we will all make compromises based on our priorities.

 

[Spinelli]

A little while back I mentioned how much I was enjoying that I could turn EVERYTHING up to Ultra in Dirt Rally 2 and that I was enjoying seeing all the little details that I could never see before. So far I'm very happy with my 4090.

To this I was told by some that all that was superfluous and that I would immediately ignore all this detail once I was in game. They had these effects turned down to support higher resolution.

So I could say the same thing about resolution. Once I'm in game, I'm focusing on driving, or game play I don't notice this.

Seeing 600 specs of dust instead of 800 specs of dust, seeing 3 extra pixels for 0.2 seconds on some random reflection on some random surface you're not even looking at, seeing some extra casted shadows on a track-side spectator's shoulder-blade who's standing 300 feet from you and you drive by at 200 km/h and cannot even physically see if you tried, is not even close to the same thing as playing on a screen with an abysmally low resolution.

A terribly low resolution (whatever that may be for an individual) affects every single thing you see on screen, non-stop. It can destroy details, it can cause blurriness or just make every thing un-clear, it can cause massive aliasing every where, massive shimmering every where, it can make words un-readable, objects unidentifiable, the view of the distance destroyed. It can make the entire image a headache-inducing mess.

If you had your game's gfx settings set so low that you can easily notice differences without even trying to look for them, not to mention even while focusing on playing, then that's a whole different story compared to someone who had their graphics custom tuned (mostly a combination of high, medium, and ultra/max) to look almost imperceptible, if not imperceptible, from everything at ultra/max. The latter is what people here were talking about.