Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[RCHeliguy]

Amusingly this is still not all of it....

My eyes!!!! My eyes!!! There is no way to un-see this! My eyes are dimming. Blindness is upon me! Arghhh!!!!!

Next we will be seeing pictures of breaking ground on a new super collider

 

[Mr Latte]

@RCHeliguy
Well, it certainly catches the eye when you come into the room, the wife noticed too as it grew.
I currently have a mix of 10 iNuke DSP amps, I may not need them all as it will depend how well I can use multiple units in the pedal region. I do have though a custom 2 pedal installation idea I have not seen done before so will have to wait and see. The seat is the main interest at the moment and working on the approach I have with using high energy low bass units with high detailing exciters.

The amps will likely be stacked out of the way but I will have a moveable rack close to the cockpit for the hardware that helps control or alter the felt sensations and how the tactile operate. It can be pushed out of the way when not needed. Cabling and interconnects need some deep thought too and they are not going to be cheap for this either.

I have been testing the first part of the new installation for the dual BK Concerts.
Messing about with some rpm effect layers and ideas I had. Now I can combine each unit to have specific effect layers and avoid any issues placing those layers on the same unit caused. It also lets me have very strong energy from rpm or speed based sensations on each unit. An effect scenario like acceleration G, I can have both units apply effects for this but again now with 2 units its possible to have them bring differences in their operation but combine each as one felt sensation. Its hard to get a single unit to do specific things like drop in Hz but climb in Hz at the same time but with two units its easily accomplished. As an installation approach, it opens the door to new possibilities with effects layers and effect distribution.

All I can say is the energy and emotion generated with the "low bass effect layers" is exceptional. To some points scary as you feel internal organs and your whole gut/body being affected by the depth in the vibration energy. Hard to explain but even with low amp and effect settings the thrill it generates is very convincing you are in something that has power in its engine growl, emotion/character over the rpm range but also giving great potential for increasing the involvement with acceleration, braking or wheel lockups.

The exciters will bring the extra detail and zing with high rpm that the BKs cannot do well. So far, for a test to see if the installation can handle it, seems to be okay. The seat is easily moving about an inch such is the energy in the bass. I may try an alternative installation idea to compare.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Allowing the seat to move an inch seems like it might impact your braking depending on how many kg of pressure your brake is set for. Heck some motion systems only have 1.5" of travel on them. Seems like your tactile system is crossing over into motion at 1" of movement.

 

[Mr Latte]

Its temporary...
The seat at the moment is not fully installed, it's just sitting on 4 large BK units with some isolator pads on them to get raised up off the floor. I mentioned it only to help illustrate the energy being output from the bass.

Now for those that own large BK units, here is a treat to try with Simhub...
See the Discord for a WIP joint effort on improving the excitement and involvement of high rpm and speed.

Here is a quick collaboration you get when we combine some ideas I had with the brilliance of Romainrob and his way of quickly making "custom effects".

Not sure how well it will work on smaller units but feels epic when dialed in with large BK units.


Link posted on Discord (shake-it-discussion)

 

[Mr Latte]

Came up with this additional assortment today with some playing about and help from Romainrob at the Simhub Discord channel.

 

[milhouse19]

I need to build a bracket to attach my mini LFE to my DOFReality platform. I was thinking of using two 1/2 MDF boards attached with bolts around the frame support, essentially creating a sandwich around the frame. Then I would bolt the miniLFE to the bottom MDF.

My question is whether it would be better to use MDF or steel/aluminum plate to help transmit the vibration to the frame and seat. It would be easier to work with MDF than metal, but I'm not sure whether the MDF would absorb too much vibration.

Thanks.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Aluminum is light weight and transmits vibrations very well. MDF is used by speaker companies to dampen out sound so it is sort of the polar opposite of what you are looking for. Steel can be good too.

 

[Mr Latte]

I need to build a bracket to attach my mini LFE to my DOFReality platform. I was thinking of using two 1/2 MDF boards attached with bolts around the frame support, essentially creating a sandwich around the frame. Then I would bolt the miniLFE to the bottom MDF.

My question is whether it would be better to use MDF or steel/aluminum plate to help transmit the vibration to the frame and seat. It would be easier to work with MDF than metal, but I'm not sure whether the MDF would absorb too much vibration.

Thanks.

Hi, you don't say what type of seat you have, different things you could do, depends also if you only want to make provision for just one unit or stereo in future? Steel plate or aluminum may be best for vibes, bolting to the rails the seatframe are on. You want most direct contact with the seat as possible.

Its possible to buy a clamp or make one like this.
I would strongly recommend you consider the multi-exciter approach (if you have a suitable seat) and then use one or more BK for added depth with specific effect roles you can give it. This will greatly enhance the motion and enable multiple effects to be felt better.

 

[milhouse19]

I do have a multi-exciter setup (on a DOFRealty H6). I was able to embed 2 transducers inside my seat, and added 2 more to my pedals.

As for the bracket, I will probably make something using two steel junction box covers and threaded rod. I've done something similar for a different project and now realize it will work well here (or at least I hope it will).

 

[anton_Chez]

Interesting little thing happened yesterday relating to this. My Mini LFE's stopped working while on track. I thought they overheated and were in auto cut off mode. Turns out, the power supply for one of my SMSL 160W 2 channel amps went to bed. So weird to have a power supply die before the actual amp did. Those little things are pretty good for the money but longevity was always on my mind with them.

So now I have to scour eBay for a replacement. The back of it shows an SMSL label so they probably brand some generic ones and bundle it with the amp. Hopefully if I search for SMSL I'll get the same one. Probably cook the amp if it's not perfectly matched.

 

[boern69]

@Mr Latte I will test ur new creation
the 488gt3 i tested so far on rf1 and ac

plz can u up a pic what channel and where the speaker is placed on ur rig?

------------------
I run 10 shakers ( 4 on the seat) connected on 8 channels now

The large buttkicker LFE does good work it has about 2-3 times more power than the modded bs250
it works together with the modded BS 250 on the other side (->if it moves up the other side moves down->roll)
It is quite enough for this leight rig and keeps it rolling and moving while I sit inside
I had to replace the amp and now use a t amp 800 works far more quite

for the feed and the engine (back of the seat) section the rockwood do the job in the same manner

The frequency range of the sinustec and the rockwood is quite good and natural even modded
they go up to 2000hz (did not test higher ->perhaps video if i have more time) and down to 10hz depending
on weight.

I will make a separate thread in future to show this rig for people looking for an effordable setup
u can stock up woth a 1xLFE unit or only bs250 / rockwood shakers if u dont have the money


ps ur new profile from monday does not load for me

 

[Mr Latte]

View attachment 339454

@Mr Latte I will test ur new creation
the 488gt3 i tested so far on rf1 and ac

plz can u up a pic what channel and where the speaker is placed on ur rig?

------------------
I run 10 shakers ( 4 on the seat) connected on 8 channels now

The large buttkicker LFE does good work it has about 2-3 times more power than the modded bs250
it works together with the modded BS 250 on the other side (->if it moves up the other side moves down->roll)
It is quite enough for this leight rig and keeps it rolling and moving while I sit inside
I had to replace the amp and now use a t amp 800 works far more quite

for the feed and the engine (back of the seat) section the rockwood do the job in the same manner

The frequency range of the sinustec and the rockwood is quite good and natural even modded
they go up to 2000hz (did not test higher ->perhaps video if i have more time) and down to 10hz depending
on weight.

I will make a separate thread in future to show this rig for people looking for an effordable setup
u can stock up woth a 1xLFE unit or only bs250 / rockwood shakers if u dont have the money


ps ur new profile from monday does not load for me

Hi, again
This shared set was quickly put together so it's still not ideal by any means, I am curious what effects or settings people are using with large BK units. I personally think this set has a bit too much energy with the (engine response curve) at the 4K range. I used this to simulate a high torque at low rev sensation. Basically just wanted to try some low Hz effect layers with idle-low rpm and a max rpm sensation on a new installation I am doing. Not heard if others had any problems importing/loading the effects profile. Do you have an up to date release/version? I was able to download it and import it okay....

Yes T.amp are not bad amps but its perhaps lacking a little in total power for the largest LFE but only if you really want to push them. In fairness, this may only be needed on larger rigs or certain situations. As amps, I think they do not support 2ohms (BK Concert & Gamer Models) which is one factor. Meaning that with BK units, they are only ideal with the LFE (4ohm) series models.

Tactile Moving Up/Down?
I am confused about what you mean regards this creating roll? The tactile transducers are constantly moving up/down (cycles per second) based on the Hz used. If you have two units (L/R) which are operating with the same effects (mono) and these output to each channel at the same time. Yet you have them effectively "out of phase" (up/down). Then they are opposing each other and one unit can be canceling out the other. If I am looking at your image correctly. It looks like you have 2 units for the seat rear left/right suspension? Yet you have left/right suspension both active to the same units for channels 3/4?

Why would you have "rear left tactile units" be active for both rear suspension "left" but also "right" suspension effects output. Also vice versa via "rear right tactile units" active for both rear suspension "right" but also "left" suspension effects output?

It would be interesting to learn and see more of your rig in future and what effects you use or indeed your own effect settings or profiles.

 

[TrailSlide]

the simvibe software keeps crashing during iracing races for some reason, so i tried simhub.
absolutely loves the simhub ui and ease of use.

but i do miss the Mr. Latte's FXX setting from the simvibe, it was incredible.

Mr. Latte would you be able to share a good simhub chassismode shaker profile?

 

[boern69]

i have the newest version installed

i will post the effects here in the thread i plan for the rig
i will make some video and pics with explanation of the roll effect

mr latte
"Yet you have left/right suspension both active to the same units for channels 3/4? "
no sorry the pic is only example from github ->I have all 8 channels running and config now
not my config because i sent the last post from work

make good progress with the default effects of simhub only lowered some hz of these effects
to have more in the 10-25 hz range but still some left in the higher frequenzies

the new upgrade with 1 Lfe is great
it brings the rig even more alife and moving in the "seat area"
while the "feed area" was well powered by the smaller cheap units

now the whole rig is in motion
cant wait to show a new video

but there is still so much space for improvement

 

[Mr Latte]

@boern69, okay so image isnt yours (it seemed odd).
The LFE can perform with the lowest Hz better if we use a crossover to restrict its output only to low Hz. I have tried under 30Hz and 20Hz. We can control this depending on the filter used for the crossover as well to determine the slope it uses. I found if doing that with plenty of power/wattage the sensation from even one contains lots of energy. Certain effects work really well with this but these scenarios were examples (idle/peak torque/max rpm/engine strain) I used to try with this set.

I believe when combined with the exciters it will bring the best engine effects we can have. Incorporating the best bass and the best details. I will be creating new effects and going through the effects in the new year testing them on the new seat configuration I have planned. Want to do a deep look into Shakeit but only will continue this if people get involved. If people don't get involved with the thread then no point me wasting time on it.

When we don't use a crossover or have a higher operating range for the unit then we tend to limit the volume based on the mid-range Hz that are easier for the unit to produce. Typically around 30-60Hz range as these can become uncomfortable with higher volumes (boomy bass). Although for users that need mid-high Hz detailing by not using a crossover we then get more response from the unit.

My own preference is to limit the BK purely for best low bass and then use a different unit specifically for mid and high bass detailing. This approach has several benefits to one unit trying to do it all. Using 4-8 exciters on the seat combined with at least one large BK is going to give very high performance.

Look forward to your own thread and sharing more of your own build.

 

[Mr Latte]

Dont know about you guys but hectic week at work with Christmas.
With some free time, I decided to try a bit of testing about with some new effects layers for engines.

Here I ramble on about some current testing, thoughts and wonders!

Quite quickly it becomes apparent how well the large BK units can output a 5Hz based effect for idle and towards max rpm sensation. The response curve feature in Simhub is excellent with some playing around.

What would be interesting is if anyone that own the large BK and has an iNuke DSP or NXD based amp wants to feel some of the ideas I am working on. @boern69 it would be interesting if you can use a software-based crossover and get involved too sharing the difference you feel with these test effect layers on the modded units you have to the large BK. I still have yet to get from you a real account in how they perform with restricted crossovers focusing solely on the fundamental frequency used and not including its generated harmonics also being felt in the output.

Unused Potential
I get a feeling lots of people bought into the DSP amps but may not have got their teeth into using them to the potential they can offer with the advanced features they have. Something I want people to get more to grips with is using a controlled crossover for a tactile unit and this unit being given a specific role for the immersion. Have an effect use very low Hz and feel the difference of this effect with different crossover settings but then applying increased volume when we restrict the Hz within the crossover.

An important point to note is we can use a very restricted "low bass" range and boost the energy of this to feel monumental in its output and strength. Be this for serious energy for effects such as braking, g-forces, or engine and I mean guys, very strong very deep immersion here not a punchy 40Hz bass that most will consider strong bass. This can only be properly done by eliminating the naturally generated harmonics when using the lowest frequencies so that the focus is on the lowest Hz given as the fundamental frequency used and then cranking the crap out of this in gain levels to achieve the amount of sheer strength we seek with it. Some care is needed and common sense as this level of bass energy will vibrate internal organs, your brain in your skull, your earlobes, body fat. Shaking even headphones sitting on your head as the deep bass energy travels through your whole body.

Differing Opinions
I will challenge anyone on these forums that will say we cannot use "tactile" as a way to greatly further immersion for effects like g-forces or scenarios of high or extreme energy. Be this immersion to represent engine power, acceleration, braking, lateral G or vertical heave/surges and suspension bumps that all (can) come with much,much more depth, authority, detailed character, intense power and extended impression on the user.

I refer to going much further, than what the "typical conception" generally formed is. This from what or how most people currently are using or implementing tactile on their rigs today.


Bass Energy - Going Beyond & Pushing Boundaries!
"Bass Connection", Hz & dB what do we learn - when controlling the generated harmonics?


Example, testing really low Hz with adjusted gain levels when using different crossover presets.

Even with a single layer engine response curve. How that single layer feels with different crossover is quite an interesting and valuable understanding of how we can build or apply new effect sensations tailored for high energy scenarios or roles.


Example response curve for engine idle, inertia and max rpm.

What happens when we experiment with crossovers?


Example: How we control the operation of the tactile unit can also greatly vary the felt output it may achieve regards experiencing "True Low-Frequency Bass" (Every 3dB is 2x factor in the energy of the frequency). When we have specific Hz at -dB values then it very much alters the felt sensation.


Primary Questions:
When separating the "low bass" from any "mid bass" influence
How does it alter the felt sensation?
What does it let us achieve?
Why does a single Hz difference in frequencies feel much more unique in character with low Hz. Yet we can barely notice little or any difference when applied to higher Hz?
What happens if we use multiple layers at random with different gain levels?
What happens if we use harmonically matched layers with different gain levels?

Ohhh the curiosity......


Example of testing individual Hz with different gain levels and crossover usage.

I have to ask do you guys know from any trials or experimentation what this does or how it changes the output? What have other people experimented with or done regards creating more advanced engines or rpm effects? Just how deep into it have others delved?

Why Do This - What Else Can We Discover?
I am working on using layers to help learn/discover new felt effects creation. For instance, how would 2Hz at 100% gain compare to 10Hz at 20% gain? We can easily make a BK bottom/pang with these lowest Hz so it requires having suitable crossovers and gain levels working together. I also wonder if anyone else has noticed a connection with low Hz engine rpm and heave sensations?

Can we potentially have effects like engine idle, inertia and max rpm scenarios, produce a very meaty but smooth rumble with lots of force/depth and energy bandwidth. Each with their own character but feel much more satisfying utilising the true bass potential of the larger units? Yes, I believe we can based on tests like this and the findings they bring. The ability to not just have operating felt vibrations but generate a sense of character, to bring emotion to how one car may feel compared to another. How smooth or violent should it be, to suit the intended car being driven and not use a typical setting we like for all cars.

In most cases, (low bass Hz) is a scenario that the smaller units will not be able to properly generate or produce to enable this desired and much more engrossing and more authentic immersion correctly. I will in future tests seek to find the limits of the BK gamer in comparison to the larger BK for the lowest Hz each can really handle and output with sufficient energy.


Modified Budget Tactile?
I put to people to get involved and share their own findings or comparisons with the limitations we get for lowest capable Hz when using controlled crossovers.

The ability to be able to create and control with more understanding and usable Hz range is good progress in applying more diverse or unique feeling sensations for different effects. Hence we attempt to avoid the common issue of many effects feeling similar. Yet (i believe) we need the biggest, most capable units to help us extend what range of Hz we can really use.

The exciters are the same but at the opposite end, being applied for mid and high frequency detailing. Simply the point here is to go, well beyond the 30-80Hz range that most people commonly use for effects. It is much too narrow a range to try and have multiple effects all work and be felt independently.

For me, this is what testing/researching with using the largest BK units and making better use of their low bass credentials seems to bring to the table.

Still lots to discover!

@TrailSlide what we can achieve with Simhub will go far beyond any previous Simvibe profiles I have done. This is mainly because, we can have custom effects made with much better channel control as well as better tools within Shakeit that open up more potential in effects creation. Not only that but more has been learned over time with continued experiments with transducers as well.

To get the very best from tactile, my advice to people is to combine the large BK with multiple exciters. Those that have put faith in this concept are going to feel much improved and rather impressive effects I have been working on. They will gain the benefit of 2 years (on/off) research and testing I have done. With this, there is great potential but still, lots to do with tests and seeking to work with a few others and their input, to help tune and develop effects others also enjoy.

[updates added]

 

[RCHeliguy]

I've found that I like the SimHub's engine RPM curve setup. I can feel the engine turn over and then settle into a lumpy idle but it fades away during most of the rpm range and only shows up again near redline. Giving it a chunk of white noise makes a great lumpy idle, but doesn't feel right at the high end. So splitting the effect and creating two effects one for idle and one for nearing redline seems to work well. The lumpy idle is good for immersion only. The effect at redline is actually useful. I don't want to feel the engine all the time.

When everything is right, you feel like you are in a car and the motion and tactile fade into the background. When something is wrong it sticks out. I suspect that we all get comfortable with what our system is creating over time.

However, Mr. Latte, I suspect that if I tried out your system that it would be eye opening experience and leave me wanting more from my system. Ignorance can be a blessing and being sensitized to what could be can be a curse.

I have gotten a few good ideas in this thread, and I have been thinking about adding a transducer on the left and right side of my seat for road effects while leaving the transducer in back for gear shifts and rpm. I know you have talked about having transducers dedicated to specific effects helping.

 

[Mr Latte]

Your welcome to share your effects to show what you like.

I'd say your seat is perfect for installing upto an 8 way exciter combination with 1 or 2 large BK.
Using the exciters to enhance rpm as well as stereo effects, you can apply deep bass to work in a mono fashion and still be very immersive.

Not knocking your own rig but a single unit for rpm in the seat considering what we can now do with rpm is indeed a tad lame for the achievable immersion in comparison. Plenty of people (likely most here) still use Simvibe and some applying engine as an EM channel, its not even close to the potential I see as possible and have experimented with. Yet to those people they perhaps find it good enough or are content with it.

We are not just limited to response curve based effects neither. We also can apply speed based effects and custom effects to use the telemetry how we want. So I guess it depends on how much it interests people how far they want to take things. I had some custom effects made for ideas I had that operate within set windows for speed/rpm. We then can apply a specific sensation for the purpose of this effect. So multiple approaches are being tried and combined.

Single units cannot cope well enough with multiple effect layers, or some effect instances we want Hz to rise and fall at the same time. So in my experience and perspective. Anyone serious about improving their tactile will heed this. They will consider the Exciter/BK combo that already has been tried and tested here and in multiple unit configurations.

Most transducer units that people use/own are also very limited over 100Hz and below 20Hz. I have attempted to show how we go beyond these limitations in this thread. I just like to share my own ideas and experimentation. Simhub with key updates for requested features has opened a whole new door which makes it quite exciting times for tactile immersion to expand, improve and explore new possibilities.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I'm not suggesting that our rigs are remotely comparable for tactile and don't take your comments personally. That said I just finished some racing this morning and I felt like I was in the car so in that sense all is working. I just wish my driving was more consistent.

However I agree with your comment that multiple effects going through a single transducer feel better individually and are diluted by other effects happening through the same transducer simultaneously.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Just had an interesting conversation with a guy who likes SimVibe quite a bit. His main point was that it gives you more usable tactile information that helps improve your lap times and that with it's auto tune capability that it generates more useful feedback. He also made a comment on SimHub not always being synchronized well.

Keep in mind that his comments were not about the absolute pinnacle of immersion, but about how helpful the tactile information was in helping you to improve your lap times.

So I'm curious if any of the SimVibe people on this thread could explain how the Auto Tune works, and what's required to make it work correctly.

Currently I'm a bit biased because it seemed like I was forever dealing with technical difficulties getting and keeping SimVibe working for me. Just curious about some other people's experiences.