Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

Just had an interesting conversation with a guy who likes SimVibe quite a bit. His main point was that it gives you more usable tactile information that helps improve your lap times and that with it's auto tune capability that it generates more useful feedback. He also made a comment on SimHub not always being synchronized well.

Keep in mind that his comments were not about the absolute pinnacle of immersion, but about how helpful the tactile information was in helping you to improve your lap times.

So I'm curious if any of the SimVibe people on this thread could explain how the Auto Tune works, and what's required to make it work correctly.

Currently I'm a bit biased because it seemed like I was forever dealing with technical difficulties getting and keeping SimVibe working for me. Just curious about some other people's experiences.

Others are welcome to give their own answers or feedback...

I may be wrong but to my understanding, "Auto-tune" will look at the peak outputs you have for effects based over a few laps looking at the output of each channel and the effects being used.

I assume it is primarily there to help tune/balance how the software and tactile perform. This is also likely to help reduce the piston pang the Mini Lfe can suffer from. In audio terms it may also help against clipping. It may do something internally to give certain effects more operational gain over others. It is more likely to reduce the output levels of highly active effects. It could be monitored with specific hardware but really like many things about Simvibe it is not very well expanded on in really how it operates.

Often people have a habit of using similar frequencies (the ones that feel good) and when you have multiple different effects or layers of the same effect that operate at the same time using similar Hz, This increases the dB output of those frequencies. This can cause problems in output levels being too high. It makes sense that Simvibe offers something to help reduce situations when this could happen but don't be fooled that it is some magical wizardry type feature that does amazing things with effects calibration.

Output Mixer - ALL Frequencies Per Channel
The tactile unit does not work on a per-effect basis as the output mixer within Simvibe will output ALL the frequencies for combined effects mapped to the CM or EM channels that a user has in their configuration. So any active effects on a channel when that effect is called it will generate a response based on the frequencies set for each effect. Keep in mind however audio in the way it works does not just output only the Hz the user defines. The Hz input are the "center values" for an effect.

Interaction
If a user feels more involved from the immersion, it may help their concentration which in some cases may help their driving or consistency. Though personally I would say if considering tactile for improving driving. In the sense of working towards helping to achieve lap times, "wheel-slip", and "wheel lock" based effects are good examples. If these are configured to be working well, they can help a user improve. Much time can be gained in braking and smooth acceleration but also limiting understeer or oversteer in corners.

Certainly with Simhub/Shakeit I have configured wheel-slip effect to work within an "operating sensitivity" that it matches cars in AC or ACC that show on their dash any wheelslip activity. So if operating like this you can use the felt tactile to indicate when true wheelslip is active.

Sensitivity & Activity Level?
A problem I have seen in some people's "profiles" or "settings" is that they use wheelslip effect with an overactive sensitivity level. Basically that it is almost active in most corners as they are using it to feel more representative of a surface or road texture effect. This will depend on the amount of speed/steering input they are applying but also on the cars handling. So if using this effect that way, then it's not much use as a tool for determining when actual proper wheelslip is happening and to reduce it.

Using around 70Hz is a good point for wheel-slip effects but the Clark TST and the recommended exciters will achieve better detailing with over 60Hz than BK units or some others like the Aura Pro, Reckhorn and ADX.

Mono / Stereo
Regards Simvibe I think it may only support "mono" based wheelslip type effect. Simvibe will not enable a person to use EM mode for stereo based wheel-slip as EM offers only mono based effects. IIRC some sims do not offer "per wheel" slip telemetry, although others do.

I do not think it is that important if this effect is felt in mono or stereo, just that the user can use its activity to reduce the wheel-slip being caused. Simhub will, however, indicate/display any effects that use per wheel activity via its "Live Effect" analysis.

Other effects may help the entertainment or immersion perspective but if tactile helps a user feel more connected or involved with the car and what it is doing regards its handling it can only be a good thing.

Preferences & Possibilities
You can do much more with Simhub/Shakeit and that includes creating custom effects and determining the paramaters with the telemetry how they operate. On top of that it also gives more control in how the effect is generated/output and further to this you can output any effect to any channel to any number of channels.
On several levels it is technically superior and much nicer UI.

Problems / Issues?
I don't know what is meant with synchronization issues?
Although I have to say that any issues Simhub has that people report they are usually fixed very fast.
Its developer deserves more credit for the work he does but also others on the Discord that help within its community.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Thanks for the detailed reply. It was very helpful.

 

[anton_Chez]

I forgot I own Simvive, put it that way. I much prefer Shake It for pretty much every reason imaginable. The auto tune almost has no way of working correctly as there are so many different setups it has to account for. Funny how this is pretty much the reason that no one at SimXperience ever bothered to make a proper user manual for a software that costs ninety bucks. I've spent my fair share of trial and error, constant testing and collaborating with Mr Latte to have that opinion. Others might not like it, bad luck.

Shake It has an amazing platform of support and discussion, is FREE, and also the most powerful tool I've seen not only for tactile but for the rest of the tasks it handles. It really is worth using.

 

[Kieran527]

Sorry to go back to basics, but im trying to get my head round a complete set up.
I currently have a 5.1 speaker system playing from my motherboard.

So to use tactile transducers, I’d need another sound card, and then just amp connection for the pedals plate from the front output and amp connector for the seat from the rear output?
I presume I can’t connect the centre output from the motherboard to a 4 channel amp and run the pedal and seat tranducers from that as it can’t differentiate what should be front or rear directional sound?

 

[anton_Chez]

You need one sound card for tactile and another for sound. You need separate channels for each transducer. So you can run a 5.1 output as 2 x Front (L/R) and 2 x Rear (L/R) output for 4 separate channels in Simhub which you then assign a tactile unit to. You can use onboard sound for this (as many do) and then run your game audio through HDMI out from your graphics card, or from another sound card. You can't run a subwoofer output to 4 channels, but you should be able to run 4 tactile units from the one channel if the amp and units support the impedance. You would effectively then have 4 units all doing exactly the same thing though.

 

[Mr Latte]

PRO BASS - Buttkicker Concert & BK LFE / Low Hz Experimentation

• Bass Control via Behringer iNuke / NXD
• Using: Crossover & PEQ

Simhub Shakeit
Some recent testing with super low Hz for a (custom made) "Lateral G" sensation
Using only 2-4Hz as part of a range of layers going towards this new effect. It works quite well even in mono but of course if in stereo will work to the opposite side of steering for directional immersion. I think this would be great on motion rigs or motion seats like GS5.

As previously discussed in past comments about "low Hz" and having "crossovers" applied to restrict only the low bass to go to the transducer. In the examples of (A) & (B) below. I can confirm previous comments I made that for the best low bass we do indeed need to control and restrict the harmonics via crossover for the best deep bass performance.

​

Crossover (A) felt much more robust than (B) and when no crossover was in place it felt worse again with too much mid-bass being included from generated harmonics. It took the emphasis away from feeling only the lowest bass with the energy from the 2-4Hz center values being used. This confirms to me the importance of using crossover and PEQ for frequency control with these largest Buttkickers and getting the best from them.

The above test with (A) crossover gives a very deep but floaty bounce sensation, one that is quite enjoyable and unique in feel. It also works well on impacts and giving an impression of the body of the car being shaken under G loads like in High-speed corners.

Fast sweeping corners are brilliant, (Silverstone) and also (Spa) in particular standing out.
We can configure how smooth it comes in and what speeds or G levels are needed for its activity but quite an immersive effect that can't be achieved so well or at all with other tactile solutions and I doubt this will work well with the example 2Hz & 4Hz using the BK Gamer but its still something I am going to try with for comparison.

Note:
Using different Hz even with single-digit changes very much alters the feel with these lowest frequencies. You can't just raise the Hz and get the same feeling for units that have less low bass potential.


Multiple Large Buttkickers
I have found that we can overload a tactile unit if we try to apply other effects when trying to achieve really high energy with these very low Hz. I have successfully had "Lateral G" work on BK units and then have deep bass energy response for other effects like idle/rpm work fine on other units. It comes across the seat fine.

So we can apply different feeling sensations for these as well to distinguish "Lateral G" from say "Engine Strain - RPM" and give "Longitudinal G" effects such as "Braking" or "Acceleration" their own character and feel. One fear early on was that with several large BK used on a single seat would it all become just a hash of bass but with well created and implemented effects it seems very doable and giving different units their own effect roles.

I am looking forward to do more experimentation and tests on the new seat build soon in the New Year

 

[RCHeliguy]

It looks like you are using software on the PC to handle all your filtering. Is that correct?
If so can you provide a link to what you are using?
Does it just sit on the channel you are working with and affect any signal sent to that channel?

 

[Mr Latte]

It looks like you are using software on the PC to handle all your filtering. Is that correct?
If so can you provide a link to what you are using?
Does it just sit on the channel you are working with and affect any signal sent to that channel?

Its software that works with these amps (original models were iNuke DSP models) now replaced with NXD series by Behringer. The NX1000D, NX3000D as models to consider. These still are one of the best amps to buy for tactile.

We basically program the amps for tuning of how the tactile will operate.
Once you get a good configuration you do not need to do anything as the amps will load the preset when powered on. It is one of the major benefits these amps have for tuning of bass for subwoofers or in our case transducers.

I covered it in depth HERE (see from start) in the past but search the forums for "Remote Connect" or DSP and you will find lots of references of it in the forums. These Behringer amps make it simple while we can do similar with PC software or other additional hardware/software combos.

I don't think anyone has gone into depth about using other PC/Software options with typical amps for the same purpose and control of the transducers they own. If wanting to be serious with tactile. It is vital to get good control and tuning for the best bass and these ultra-low frequencies, especially with the large BK units as you can gain lots of usable low frequencies as I highlighted as low as 2Hz.

 

[Mr Latte]

@boern69

Waiting on you reporting and comparing in more detail how your large BK units feels to the modded units. Appreciate if you can also try and use specialist software to implement "Crossover" and "EQ" features with the amps you have. If doing this and applying the same things I have tested with, you may find the true low bass potential of each unit.

I would be keen to help you or other owners of large BK achieve better tunning of them for these improved, effects I am working on and using the low bass potential these large units offer.

To do the testing of such effects we need to consider what the lowest working Hz cab be used on different units, testing with the usage of a crossover to remove the additional harmonics and feel what the lowest usable Hz are.

 

[RCHeliguy]

In terms of tactile that can make a difference in a race.

Does this seem about right to most people?
Any suggestions about this?

Low RPM lumpy idle ( immersion )
Gear Shift thump ( immersion )
High RPM near 100% redline ( potentially helpful )

Road Bumps ( immersion )
Road Impact ( immersion )
Wheel Spin ( possibly the most helpful )
Wheel Lock ( potentially helpful ( mostly immersion )

The wheel spin is what I have worked with the most since it is the indication that I've passed a threshold where I could spin the car and that I'm riding that fine line on the edge.

Is there anything else that seems like it is a critical focal point to give you queues that can help you improve your lap time?

 

[Mr Latte]

What VR is to vision is what Tactile is to audio.

We can use some effects to help aid input controls and devices.
Its possible in Shakeit to create a custom effect to trigger a sensation for telemetry values.
So yes a user can match a cars braking (not just pedal depression percentage) as some sims offer slip data.

Others may be to dramatically pull you into the immersion with what you see/hear and feel.
Lateral G and Speed-Sensitive steering effects will combine well with steering inputs and any motion.

It depends on the user if when they feel more connected with whats happening (immersed) if this may help their concentration or indeed driving ability.

Motion does not do much to improve laptimes, if anything it can go against it.
Yet it is still very immersive.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Motion with VR dramatically reduces nausea with guests and improves immersion.

The only motion that I believe helps with performance is traction loss which I don't have. Barry mention driving .2 seconds faster than his best time at Sebring with that monster 6 dof motion rig he assembled.

I think the issue is whether it is accurately giving you you the queues you need to de decide how to the edge you a sense e driving.

 

[Mr Latte]

Motion with VR dramatically reduces nausea with guests and improves immersion.

The only motion that I believe helps with performance is traction loss which I don't have. Barry mention driving .2 seconds faster than his best time at Sebring with that monster 6 dof motion rig he assembled.

I think the issue is whether it is accurately giving you you the queues you need to de decide how to the edge you a sense e driving.

In fairness regards my last remark on motion not improving laptimes. I believe that is the case for some people. Well I do not recall reading of users with GS4/GS5 consistently saying it helped improve their laptimes or that of SFX100. Maybe I am wrong.

It seems the "Next Level Traction Plus" is playing its part in being able to help the user detect and minimise the control of understeer/oversteer. Potentially driving smoother. Keep in mind that Barry has had lap-times set with different seat movers, Dbox included.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Absolutely true and this is the first time he has EVER said that something helped him get his fastest time ever.

I believe you are correct that in most cases just like DD wheel, motion aids immersion but doesn't help lap times.

What he said caught my attention. The highest praise I've heard before is that he might be able feel something earlier with something or that it felt better. But to put together something that complex and not have it hinder him was surprising. To say he had a best ever lap time with it was much more so.

 

[Mr Latte]

The question is can we apply some form of tactile based solution to help with this detection?

Shakeit's wheelslip effects were updated with a requested feature I had some time ago but I have not got around to fully testing the potential yet. Too busy with other effects at the moment.

We can now
Set independent activity and response for:

Corners:
Front Wheelslip (L/R)
Rear Wheelslip (L/R)

Front & Rear
Front Pair
Rear Pair

Sides:
Left
Right

The feature added was "use separate output channels"
When this is ticked we can name an effect but then manually map an effect to the selected channels found in the output mixer screen.

So its possible to now define "Corners" to have different settings for the front and rear channels as well as different felt sensations and response. We also have the ability to apply different sensation and settings for "Front or Rear Pairs" and finally also for "Left & Right Sides"

This could create a much more immersive form of wheelslip by having individual layers controlled to work together but it will take some playing around with multichannel options to see what potential is possible.

Some form of front/rear traction loss will be attempted to bring a response felt in pedals and seat with their own character/sensations. It may possibly aid driving if we fine-tune the settings to indicate or reduce the wheelspin and slip at the front/rear.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I'm using front and rear wheel spin right now. 50-60Hz, by the pedals and the seat. No white noise,

I've been playing with where it starts to kick in. I'm at about 35% but it's not quite where I want it yet. It's kicking in just a bit too early.

 

[Mr Latte]

I'm using front and rear wheel spin right now. 50-60Hz, by the pedals and the seat. No white noise,

I've been playing with where it starts to kick in. I'm at about 35% but it's not quite where I want it yet. It's kicking in just a bit too early.

You can decide not to use the throttle/brake options and alter the response curve to determine when it starts but also shape how the effect is used depending on the curve applied. Have it come in soft and rise or with higher values or come in hard and not vary much between values. We can also balance gain settings with the volume settings. Often you may find some Hz feel okay but they need a volume to suit. Too much and they are overbearing and harsh, too little and they may hardly be felt.

Sure, you can also do what Fanatec have.
Setting a different sensation (new effect layer) to come in at a pedal depresion % if you like this.
You can then have this match with a wheel lock effect, if you discover lock happens at a specific % have the effect notify you prior to reaching that percentage.

So yes this could help as a driving aid for some people.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I see how the use separate output channels can make a big difference. I been playing more and like using a higher frequency on the seat transducers for a rear wheels sliding. 60-70Hz. However even with two transducers on the foot plate those higher frequencies get dampened out too much because of the rubber mounts. I need to drop the pedal deck to about 48-58 to get the desired effect which feels very similar to the higher frequency at the seat.

Obviously just like a room impacts speaker performance, how a transducer is mounted has a large impact on which frequencies will work well.

For a low frequency lumpy idle they all work well together, but for some effects it's obvious that there needs to be additional customization by location.

 

[Emery]

What are the findings so far regarding seat construction? Metal base vs. fiberglass base vs. wood base and covering (vinyl or leather, padding yes/no, foam shape yes/no)?

 

[RCHeliguy]

What are the findings so far regarding seat construction? Metal base vs. fiberglass base vs. wood base and covering (vinyl or leather, padding yes/no, foam shape yes/no)?

Titanium, covered with goose down with a layer of Lama fur and finally Egyptian Cotton fabric