Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[RCHeliguy]

I am currently running ProSimu T1000 rig with 6 transducers, last two arriving on Monday. Here's my 2 cents:

Static rig -> motion rig = huge step up in immersion
Static rig -> transducers = big step up in immersion
motion rig + transducers = step up in immersion, but not as big as above upgrades alone

Primary benefit imho is that you can simulate things that are missing in motion (because of either physics engine limitations or actuators limitations). IRL, if you lock wheels or skid, it produces strong sensation. But at least with rF2, there's nothing in motion. I am using SimHub, and now I can get skid and lock sensation. Also, improved road feel.

I am not expert on amps, but consumer amps are usually 6-8ohm output impedance. My transducers are 4ohm, so by the book that won't work. But you can buy them cheap used, I got ART SLA4 and Behringher NX6000 relatively cheap on ebay. If I was in your shoes I would still try your 5.1 amp (at your own risk, I've no idea what impedance mismatch might do to amp or transducers, I believe your amp will get hotter than normal), who knows maybe it will work, but those consumer amps were too big for my setup, that's why I got those rack style amps.

My Yamaha 5.1 AV amp would shut down after 10-15 minutes pushing 4ohm transducers which is why I built an amp.

My thoughts are that motion and transducers complement each other very nicely.

When I start the engine I get a nice lumpy idle with the transducers that goes away as the rpm's increase until redline. When I shift the motion system has a nice surge effect and the seat transducer adds a complementary thunk.

The motion system adds physics which makes a huge difference especially in Rally if you go airborne and makes you feel the impact when you touch down. I never could get Transducers to get the signal on touch down.

Unless you have something like the magnetic D-Box style actuators, I think transducers add to the feel while you are driving straight and the G forces are about neutral.

Transducers give texture to everything and fill in the blanks left by most motion systems.

PS. I was looking at an NX4-6000 and a Buttkicker LFE, just because, but the itch wore off. I'm pretty happy with my current transducer setup and while I'm sure I could play with my settings and get more out of an LFE, I think I need to save something to do in the future. I also need to get more seat time and stop futzing with my rig.

 

[Mr Latte]

Ive had a big month towards purchases/deliveries for my own build.

24 meter of steel/chrome tubing​

Steel support sections for seat​

Vibration/sound dampening materials​

Professional Speakon Distributors​

Few hundred quids worth of tubing clamps/bolts for the seat/pedals tactile support frame​

Inuke amp No.8​

HA6000 No.3​

Xonar U7 USB​

2x Multichannel Sound Projectors (experimental speaker solution)​

Very close now, to be able to start putting together the isolation platform my rig will use.

One thing I will share is that normally a seat is attached by seat rails. These are quite thin and are a few inches in from the sides of the seat. Other seats like bucket seats while having the energy come in form the outer sides will usually have side supports with only 4 bolts connecting the seat supports. Thats only the contact area of 4 bolts used to transmit the tactile energy into the seat.

So most of the tactile energy is delivered in a typical rig to the user by one of these methods depending on the type of seat used.

What I wanted to do was increase the contact area going to the seat from the component that the tactile would be connected/directly too. Additionally, I wanted L/R tactile energy to go directly to the outermost edge of the seat not just from the position of the typical frame or seat rails.

I also wanted a method that the primary energy could flow over a surface/object and it act in a way to help bank/sustain the energy. Yet be able to ensure only a small percentage of the contact area would let energy escape below the seat and it producing very efficient delivery of the energy/detail into the actual seat.

Basically to deliver the tactile energy into the seat more evenly and over much more of each side of the seat.

Steel Sections / Soft Dampening (500x100mm)




Steel was used as it is one of the best materials for tactile. These are to sustain the tactile energy for each side of the seat. Much wider/longer than the typical seat rail method. Having a great deal more contact, including the outer sides of the seat frame, its front and back as well as the typical frame section normally used for the installation of a seat.

Each one of these will have tactile energy from 4 units with specific/controlled operation and roles for different effects. For these units stereo operational based effects will be used,

I prefer to separate suspension bumps from lateral G effects to different units. The reason being I want as much energy for both but not to compromise one or the other when both effects are active. So the larger BK can deliver the low bass sensations for big bumps and powerful depth rumble with increased lateral G, while the TST units will deliver the mid-range bumps and finer detailing for road surfaces, small curbs and wheel slip.

This as a concept is a big advantage in immersion over a single unit being used for multiple effects.
Lots of power, lots of detail.

1x BK Concert & 1x TST 329 Gold (Dual Role via crossover)​

1x BK LFE & 1 x TST 429 Platinium (Dual Role via crossover)​

These units will be combined with exciters on the back of the seat for specific effects/roles and body regions. The intention is that I can deliver tactile immersion in a multi-stereo representation across the users....... knees/thighs/buttocks/spine/side/shoulders

A major factor with the design being used is that the tactile energy that can escape below the seat (often a major issue/factor on most peoples builds) is only possible via 4 bolts supporting each block/side. How it all comes together will be shown in more detail in the upcoming rig blog/thread.

Previous tests show this should work well but how the seat is installed and the unique channeling/control of the tactile is implemented with the specialist isolation my rig will use is a big part to it hopefully performing to the high standards desired. This is a crucial part of my build before I can consider the 8020 frame and future inclusion of SFX 100 motion.

 

[Wmacky]

Pedal Plate isolators?

Needs some help. I'm mounting my pedals / pedal plate this week end. The pedal plate is a raw sheet of 1/4" aluminum 12"x16" It will carry the pedals and mount to the older style P1 pedal carrier, spanning the 2 40x40 profiles/
to mount 1 or 2 BK LE units underneath. Do I need isolaotors when mounting the plate to the 40x40 bars? IF so, can someone point to proper (but simple) isolators I can get ( prefer Amazon, or Ebay.)

 

[Dennis Johnson]

Pedal Plate isolators?

Needs some help. I'm mounting my pedals / pedal plate this week end. The pedal plate is a raw sheet of 1/4" aluminum 12"x16" It will carry the pedals and mount to the older style P1 pedal carrier, spanning the 2 40x40 profiles/
to mount 1 or 2 BK LE units underneath. Do I need isolaotors when mounting the plate to the 40x40 bars? IF so, can someone point to proper (but simple) isolators I can get ( prefer Amazon, or Ebay.)

you might try these:

Anti-Vibration Rubber Isolator Mounts with Studs Shock Absorber, M8-1.25: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

Anti-Vibration Rubber Isolator Mounts with Studs Shock Absorber, M8-1.25: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

www.amazon.com

 

[Mr Latte]

RDB-220 are quite good at reasonable price.

"ButtKicker RDB-220 Riser Stage and Raised Floor Kinetic Isolator 220 lbs.
ButtKicker's RDB-220 kinetic isolators maximize ButtKicker transducer performance when attached to ButtKicker enhanced raised flooring and stages or platform installations. Kinetic isolators (a minimum of three are recommended) act like springs and allow your platform to move freely and independently from other structures, allowing for focused ButtKicker power transfer.

RDB-220 kinetic isolators are rated to support up to 220 lbs. Each oil and corrosion-resistant molded neoprene isolator features a cast-in, drilled steel anchor/base plate and can handle static deflections of up to 1/2". The result is a much stronger effect without raising the volume level of the amplifier, and greater fidelity."


Note: these are quite stiff, so will not feel squishy with a lot of force being placed on the pedals.
Buttkicker do 3 variants starting from 120lbs

 

[Yeertha]

I recently built the extruded aluminium rig shown in the attachments, and now I'm thinking tactile immersion will be my next step. I'd originally been thinking of spending the money on upgrading my VR headset or wheel, but from what I've read, tactile immersion may provide more value in terms of smiles per dollar.

First off, I do live in an upper floor of an apartment (and will for the foreseeable future) so noise is a big concern of mine. Isolation seems key here. I will be adding rubber caster wheels to the rig soon so that should help some I'd think. Secondly, at this time I'm only interested in dipping my toes into this so I'm planning on going with one bass shaker probably mounted to the rig under the seat. The seat comes from an old Audi and there doesn't seem to be a reasonable mounting point directly to it from below.

My plan for now is to use one ButtKicker BK-mini-LFE and an SMSL SA-98E TDA7498E Stereo Amplifier 2 x 160W to drive it using the Simvibe software.

My questions are:

• Is a single Buttkicker BK-mini-LFE worth it to add immersion?
• Can someone please confirm the SMSL amp and BK-mini-LFE are compatible?
• Where should I physically mount the Buttkicker? The thought right now is to mount it centered on the left-to-right aluminum extrusion that the front of the seat is mounted to.
• Is there anything other than the rubber caster wheels I should consider to improve isolation/immersion/feedback?
• Is this even reasonable to do in an upper floor apartment? I really do not want to annoy my neighbors.
• Should I consider using 4 Aura Bass Shakers in chassis mode instead? Most of what I've read seems to say the single Buttkicker BK-mini-LFE is way better than a single Aura, but what about the case of a single Buttkicker BK-mini-LFE vs 4 Auras?

Thanks a whole lot to anyone that can provide help and opinions. Especially @Mr Latte.

 

[Dennis Johnson]

I recently built the extruded aluminium rig shown in the attachments, and now I'm thinking tactile immersion will be my next step. I'd originally been thinking of spending the money on upgrading my VR headset or wheel, but from what I've read, tactile immersion may provide more value in terms of smiles per dollar.

First off, I do live in an upper floor of an apartment (and will for the foreseeable future) so noise is a big concern of mine. Isolation seems key here. I will be adding rubber caster wheels to the rig soon so that should help some I'd think. Secondly, at this time I'm only interested in dipping my toes into this so I'm planning on going with one bass shaker probably mounted to the rig under the seat. The seat comes from an old Audi and there doesn't seem to be a reasonable mounting point directly to it from below.

My plan for now is to use one ButtKicker BK-mini-LFE and an SMSL SA-98E TDA7498E Stereo Amplifier 2 x 160W to drive it using the Simvibe software.

My questions are:

• Is a single Buttkicker BK-mini-LFE worth it to add immersion?
• Can someone please confirm the SMSL amp and BK-mini-LFE are compatible?
• Where should I physically mount the Buttkicker? The thought right now is to mount it centered on the left-to-right aluminum extrusion that the front of the seat is mounted to.
• Is there anything other than the rubber caster wheels I should consider to improve isolation/immersion/feedback?
• Is this even reasonable to do in an upper floor apartment? I really do not want to annoy my neighbors.
• Should I consider using 4 Aura Bass Shakers in chassis mode instead? Most of what I've read seems to say the single Buttkicker BK-mini-LFE is way better than a single Aura, but what about the case of a single Buttkicker BK-mini-LFE vs 4 Auras?

Thanks a whole lot to anyone that can provide help and opinions. Especially @Mr Latte.

It depends on your budget. In my opinion, you should start with two BK minis. Mount one in the middle under your seat. Mount the other under your pedal plate. Get Simhub, much cheaper, and also in my opinion a better app.
You can get your feet wet without a lot of money. If you get hooked, then watch out, this can be a never ending cycle of wanting "just a little more oomph". It is a game changer as far as immersion though and you will have a blast.
If you still think you want to go with 4 units. I would put two on each side of the seat and two on each side of the pedal plate. Try and use separate mounts to help with separation of stereo effects.
There are lots of posts about this that will confuse the s#$t out of you but try and keep it simple at the start.
Mr Latte is a great source, but his path is a very different one than most. He probably has more dollars invested than most do with their real cars...lol.
The rubber casters seem to do a good job on my rig, but I live in a one story house so, I am probably not a good case in point.

 

[Yeertha]

Thanks for your thoughts @Dennis Johnson. Do you have any recommendations for what to physically mount them to? For both cases, seat and pedals, that is. Do I mount them to the aluminum on the rig? How? Mounting plates or something else? Do I somehow isolate the pedals and seat? Overall budget I'm trying to keep around (and under if it makes sense) $400 including a sound card and possibly software if I go the paid route.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Yeertha

This thread has been going for a good while, it covers lots of topics, but also brings many potential options and members sharing their own preferences or experiences from already installed tactile. I recently highlighted antivibration and noise reduction materials, look into them. The castors will help but you may need more materials or solutions with an apartment.

Ohhhhhs Me Wants The Mostest With 4 Wheels Immersions:
Jesting here but it is a typical approach/entry some seek with tactile. An important thing to note, quality of tactile Vs quantity of tactile are two very different things.

A common problem with 4way installations is that most installations do not attempt to maintain the positional energy and them being able to fully maintain or distinguish L/R sensations. This can be in the seat with some installations letting channel mix before they reach the seat but in many rigs, I see potential problems or more drawbacks at the pedals.

Obvious Point:
Real cars are much wider than sim cockpits.

Having a unit installed directly below or beside your foot can help detection of when that is active, but when the opposite channel is also active, possibly with less energy but still having activity. Then because a pedal plate/support may only be @12-20" wide the energy from one side is easily capable of freely moving and distorting the energy represented for the other channel and foot.

In respect but for illustration only if I said @RCHeliguy excellent looking rig is a nice example of this with both units installed onto a single plate yet it appears nothing preventing the energy of the output of the left unit being felt on the other side and vice versa.

When he cranks the volume, this will become more apparent too. Even with simple L/R audio tests, if the person can easily feel left channel activity in the right foot then personally I think it will ruin the positional immersion.

Now when you start adding units with more punch I believe lower frequencies can travel further as they have more bandwidth this further will enable the energy to mix. You then have instances when effects with more energy will overpower effects with higher frequencies. It tends to become a mush of vibration rather than being able to feel independent effects activity. This is more of an issue in the pedals as we have less body contact than we do in the seat.

Suitable Seats?
Here is the issue with your current rig and the recommendation I would give may not appeal to you.

The reason I have been recently promoting to start into tactile with 4 exciters in the seat is that these let us feel very nice positional stereo as well as multiple effects detailing. It brings advantages over traditional installations but the seat is the more important region to let us enable good stereo and detailing of multiple effects. I would say, start with this approach and then seek to add tactile to pedals or bring more power with larger units. The exciters can also operate better with certain effects as they support much higher operating ranges, so when we combine 4 or even 6 of these at the back/sides of a seat you have much more scope for improved detail and immersion. This approach is not even possible in Simvibe and few as yet will have done it but I will show soon my own W.I.P and others will begin to take more notice as it is still quite a new approach to take.

With a lot of 4 unit CM type installations
In many cases, users will feel something more akin to mono based immersion and not have clear directional representation/placement of the energy from stereo effects. Okay sure they will feel the tactile effects but my opinion on this is if you are not seeking to help preserve the positional telemetry output for the independent L/R channels and body regions then a user may as well use a single mono, large BK, get the benefits of its deeper bass and wattage than use 2 or even 4 smaller less capable units.

Profile Sharing
Their are lots of ways to go about it, people will have preferences and varying opinions. Tactile however needs experimentation. I have offered to try and use the exciter approach as a way for people to get into a fixed hardware platform and then seek to build effects to work for that. This way it is then much more likely that effects created for profiles will work for everyone that has the same exciters installed in a seat in the same manner. Yet this needs suitable seats to make it work.

My making effects that may work well on my own test build does not mean they will work well on other builds or indeed the many many many tactile unit options and installations users will have.

With tactile this is one of the biggest factors, is the time, learning curve trial and error with achieving good working effects. I want to make this much more simple with already worked on profiles using high-quality effects that people can simply load or tweak to personal pref. The method/approach I am for showcasing and been discussing this past few months regards the experimentation with the exciters is fascinating. Do not underestimate how applying much better usage of bodyzones is towards improved tactile immersion as now with what Simhub offers it brings new possibilities.

The choice, however, is down to the user, many people here will still be using Simvibe and in places like i-racing forums, the vast majority will not have tried anything else.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Yeertha I no longer have been getting involved with PMs regards tactile, its often very time consuming and discussions can go into several pages. In fairness, I have offered only small responses or turned down several people recently seeking help (some newcomers to the forums) but its because I have been busy with work/family but also as I am focusing on my own build at this time.

Placing some info here might help others, sooooooooo I do want to make it clear that while your current seat is not suitable the experimentation I have done regards the exciter approach. From that, I would say it can be superior to a Simvibe CM based installation regards its quality of immersion it brings. Even If we compared this with the common Mini BK/ ADX or Aura/Reckhorn budget type tactile units often used by many. So for the money it can be implemented (with the right type of seat) I do not see it being beaten for $ spent to the immersion it offers.

More punch/whack from units while often sought after, is not necessarily as beneficial in immersion as feeling the improved individual character or detailed activity representing specific effects. The recommended exciters help with this due to them operating better with mid but also much higher frequencies. So with instances of multiple effects operating at once, this is something a single (commonly used unit) approach just cannot do without compromising detail and those also have a more limited operating frequency range to utilise. I would estimate a lot of people's effects may use between 30Hz - 80Hz as in that range most of the common tactile will operate at their best.

Now think about this, that is only a 50Hz range to place multiple effects. We seek for those effects to have their own unique feel or sensations so a typical install has a further yet major limitation being that only a single unit for a channel is used to reproduce and represent all these effects.

*This is not so with the approach I am taking and promoting to be considered.
I have been learning a lot over the last few months on building improved effects and this will continue when my new build is ready. My point is we can go much further now than what we previously could do with CM/EM-based installations.

Sure, even though the exciter approach does not offer tactile in pedals (*can be added later) it will bring more detailed effects, very good stereo sensations and the ability to feel more effects operating at once compared to a typical CM installation.

The seat is the most important section for potential immersion as this has the most/largest body regions. Direct contact with body zones cannot be beaten for detailing. I have worked on various installations and methods testing over the last 2 years with various makes/models of transducers.

Look at GS5 it does nothing regards feet, yet people state how good it is for feeling the car. We are using the same telemetry, we have abilities that few have explored to now bring smarter tactile immersion to what most people currently use with single or front and rear pairs of units.

You can stick to the conventional methods if you want but really there are many examples of people's installations shown on these forums. I would say though that in your case to reduce vibrations to try...

• Tactile unit installed to seat/pedal frame
• Seat/Pedal section decoupled via isolation
• Isolation between these and the main rig frame
• Additional antivibration materials (Fattmat / Neoprene / Dnyamat) etc
• Main rig frame to secondary rubber wheel/isolator

 

[Wmacky]

Mr Latte!

I'm finally installing my hard backed seat into the P1 frame, so I can start installing my 6 exciters right away. You mention adding larger BK units /unit to the seat for additional bass extension.

I would like to add a single LE unit for this purpose instead a stereo LE units, as a think you said this was possible.

Can you take a moment to further explain how specifically a single mono LE unit is utilized with this stereo 6 exciter setup?

I mean as far as programing the work load? For example, does the large mono unit work independent of the exciters, only working for certain effects, OR does it handle the bass extention for every exciter on every effect.

Did that question make since?

 

[Mr Latte]

Mr Latte!

I'm finally installing my hard backed seat into the P1 frame, so I can start installing my 6 exciters right away. You mention adding larger BK units /unit to the seat for additional bass extension.

I would like to add a single LE unit for this purpose instead a stereo LE units, as a think you said this was possible.

Can you take a moment to further explain how specifically a single mono LE unit is utilized with this stereo 6 exciter setup?

I mean as far as programing the work load? For example, does the large mono unit work independent of the exciters, only working for certain effects, OR does it handle the bass extention for every exciter on every effect.

Did that question make since?

Well good to hear you are making progress, look forward to seeing your build.

I will be closely looking into not only applying the large BK but as well as TST units combined with the exciters in my own soon to start build thread. Currently working on some updates/changes for my test build. I am considering doing some videos on tests and go into detail about the whole build and about Simhub effects.

With Simhub you can easily output ANY effect and it be sent to ANY units you wish. So you will be able to play around with some effect possibilities. You might want to try restricting the crossover of this unit to below 40Hz, 30Hz or even 20Hz. This way it can be cranked in volume to perform best with only the very deepest bass.

Some possible scenarios of usage or potential effect layers to try enriching the immersion are:

• Engine rumble on idle
• Engine torque at low RPM
• Engine strain at peak/max RPM
• Large suspension bumps
• High g-loads under braking
  
  

 

[Yeertha]

First off, pics of rig.

So I ordered a ButtKicker Mini LFE and SMSL amp to test out. They'll get to me tomorrow. In the meantime, I'm trying to figure out how I'd like to mount the ButtKicker to my seat (or frame) which is from an old Audi. There are several pictures linked above. Right now my thought is to mount it on a plate (metal or wood?) to the four corners where the black seat rails are screwed into the aluminum crossbars (left to right under the seat). Does anyone have other suggestions? Is there a recommended way to mount directly to the seat instead of the black slider rails?

For my pedal mount I'll probably just mount to the 8020 crossbar that runs left to right at the bottom of the pedals, but other suggestions are welcome.

Also, I'm a bit worried about even getting started with this as I live on the top floor of an apartment and really don't want to disturb my neighbors. They've been good to me, and I try my best to be good to them. I'm planning on attaching these rubber isolator mounts between the seat rails and the aluminum crossbars. I bought these rubber feet to place between the rig and carpet as well. Does anyone have additional suggestions to dampen vibrations that get passed through the apartment structure? I also bought some neoprene washers and neoprene pads to place between attachment hardware and extrusion pieces that touch, but we'll see how well those work.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Yeertha]

First off, pics of rig.

So I ordered a ButtKicker Mini LFE and SMSL amp to test out. They'll get to me tomorrow. In the meantime, I'm trying to figure out how I'd like to mount the ButtKicker to my seat (or frame) which is from an old Audi. There are several pictures linked above. Right now my thought is to mount it on a plate (metal or wood?) to the four corners where the black seat rails are screwed into the aluminum crossbars (left to right under the seat). Does anyone have other suggestions? Is there a recommended way to mount directly to the seat instead of the black slider rails?

For my pedal mount I'll probably just mount to the 8020 crossbar that runs left to right at the bottom of the pedals, but other suggestions are welcome.

Also, I'm a bit worried about even getting started with this as I live on the top floor of an apartment and really don't want to disturb my neighbors. They've been good to me, and I try my best to be good to them. I'm planning on attaching these rubber isolator mounts between the seat rails and the aluminum crossbars. I bought these rubber feet to place between the rig and carpet as well. Does anyone have additional suggestions to dampen vibrations that get passed through the apartment structure? I also bought some neoprene washers and neoprene pads to place between attachment hardware and extrusion pieces that touch, but we'll see how well those work.

Thanks in advance.

Alright so I think I have an idea after staring at this seat for an hour. Please let me know thoughts.

1. Cut two long strips of MDF to wedge between the seat foam and the springs. (shown in green)
2. Cut four squares of MDF to act as spacers between the springs and strips from step 1. (shown in blue)
3. Cut one bigger rectangle of MDF to mount to the spacers from step 2 and long strips from step 1. (MDF shown in orange, screws in gray)
4. Mount the ButtKicker Mini (outline in red) to the rectangle of MDF using screws (shown in gray)

Is there something here that is just flat out a bad idea? Am I going to kill/dampen the ButtKicker too much? Should I look into mounting it to MDF that's mounted to a rigid surface?



Or the other option is to mount a rectangular piece of MDF under the seat rails (outlined in red here) and attach the ButtKicker to it. In this option it would only be mounted with 4 screws in the corner. There's no way to add more along the rails that I can tell. I just worry about if the connection between the seat rails and the rest of the seat is enough to transfer the vibrations.



Anyway, all thoughts are appreciated. I know the best thing is to just try them out, but I'd like to know from experienced folks if I'm doing something dumb or which one is most likely going to work better before I go buying and cutting wood.

 

[Mr Latte]

In brief the seat has an internal metal frame, you have direct contact to this via the seat rails and I think that is the best approach with this seat. Bolt a transducer to it (or use steel plate/bracket) and place the seat on isolators so these are between the seat/rig frame.

You should try more than one solution if you seek to find what works best rather than just run with theories. Put the ideas into practice. However, really this is not an ideal example for a seat for tactile, lots of padding or other materials will soak up the vibrations and the path that the tactile can or indeed will travel to get to your body regions is restricted and more complexed than optimal mounting methods.

 

[Robert Bachmayer]

This is quite interesting, I've been toying with the idea of bolting a solid plate on the back of my seat, lower back location. Then bolting my buttkicker to that, I find under the seat on my wooden base a little muffled, want a more direct to body experience.
Please keep us updated.

 

[Yeertha]

In brief the seat has an internal metal frame, you have direct contact to this via the seat rails and I think that is the best approach with this seat. Bolt a transducer to it (or use steel plate/bracket) and place the seat on isolators so these are between the seat/rig frame.

You should try more than one solution if you seek to find what works best rather than just run with theories. Put the ideas into practice. However, really this is not an ideal example for a seat for tactile, lots of padding or other materials will soak up the vibrations and the path that the tactile can or indeed will travel to get to your body regions is restricted and more complexed than optimal mounting methods.

Yeah I'm learning as I delve into this more how less than ideal the seat is for tactile. It's nice and comfortable though. We'll see what happens once I get everything mounted by the weekend and how I feel about it. I do plan on using isolators between the rails and aluminum. My concern with that though is the seat shifting slightly under heavy braking, but once everything arrives in the mail I can put it together and try.

This is quite interesting, I've been toying with the idea of bolting a solid plate on the back of my seat, lower back location. Then bolting my buttkicker to that, I find under the seat on my wooden base a little muffled, want a more direct to body experience.
Please keep us updated.

Will do.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Yeertha
From what you show mounting to the springs of the seat would not be as good as using the direct frame/supports of the seat. This seat will likely be quite heavy, so I think you will need fairly good isolators, not just the cheapo solutions found on ebay. Some of those may not have very firm elastomers.

These are quite firm and still affordable, you could even stack 2 together.
They seem identical to Clark Synthesis T100 isolators.

Lots of companies sell professional anti-vibration mounts or isolation for factory/machinery industries.
Example. I can recommend this as one to consider buying also available from Buttkicker or Parts Express as shown previously.

Having the seat well isolated can help impove the felt vibration.
One aspect is also improvements from some effects. For example "suspension" effects when using a rig with good isolation combined with powerful units can generate a small sensation for "heave".

Although from memory of past discussions, some will say tactile cannot produce good heave based immersion. I have found otherwise (when using specific circumstances) but I am keen to learn how my new build works with it. I'm not trying to use tactile for motion but do think tactile can compliment motion and it's an area I think as a community more can be done to incorporate both.

You may want some degree of compression in the isolation used, so I wouldn't go for units with very high (nm) ratings. Its possible to have a firm solution or even combine one with additional material for some softer rebound. I can't say what would suit best your seat but isolators can help the immersion as well as improve the energy of effects and reduce vibrations into other surfaces below.



Some other members have tried different isolators and maybe can offer their own views/experiences.
IIRC @Michal Burisin did some experimentation and tests with his build. Lots of 8020 rigs seem to just go for the cheapo ebay/amazon options. Ive not really seen much posts/examples on people trying different types/options for improved performance.

 

[Yeertha]

@Yeertha
From what you show mounting to the springs of the seat would not be as good as using the direct frame/supports of the seat. This seat will likely be quite heavy, so I think you will need fairly good isolators, not just the cheapo solutions found on ebay. Some of those may not have very firm elastomers.

These are quite firm and still affordable, you could even stack 2 together.
They seem identical to Clark Synthesis T100 isolators.

Lots of companies sell professional anti-vibration mounts or isolation for factory/machinery industries.
Example. I can recommend this as one to consider buying also available from Buttkicker or Parts Express as shown previously.

Agreed with everything you said. I did order some of those Penn Elcom feet as well as some of the male female cylindrical bobbins. We'll see what works. I've also got some 1/4 inch thick rubber damping material on the way too. It should all be here today, but I don't know if I'll get around to testing/building right away.

 

[Mr Latte]

One thing holds up another.....

Some teasers from ongoing work towards my build.

I cant buy the 8020 needed for my outer frame until I determine what length I need the cockpit to be.
This isolation approach I am using supports the seat and pedals but not the wheel deck. My whole build is focused around achieving the best tactile performance I can, so months of individual tests and things learned with some installations have been combined into the current build plans.


Trying different ideas with test builds



It looks like my build is going to come in at about 70" long. The typical 8020 rig frame will support this internal frame.

This central tactile support section should act in a way like dampeners when the SFX motion is to be later added but at the same time, ensuring its primary role of maintaining the tactile and that it is channeled to the path we want it to flow yet limit where it can go. I wanted to ensure the support was even or well balanced but at the same time have some degree of initial compression but still firm enough. A mixture of isolator pads (2 types tested) and the TI 300 isolators seemed to work better for this than (Mason Industries) industrial springs I had bought in the past.

Its been a challenge getting 6 large Buttkickers and 4x TST installed to the base of the seat and to ensure their energy goes into the seat yet limits what can escape to other areas. I had to find a way to best utilise the limited space and install them so they were also secure enough for the strains the future motion would bring.


Test builds for the seat support section, several have been done with improvements made.

The seat and pedals will be located on a tier with a secondary tier acting as the supports which then has the isolation towers bolted on. This comprises of 8 steel tubes (4 each side) being used to support the seat/pedals sections. So the seat and pedals is balanced over the center of 6 isolator towers which have their own left/right support.


The key was fitting it all in with a neat install but still letting the BK/TST "Dual Role" combination work with their energy going directly into the base of the seat.



The outer BK units (Directional Effects) are installed to BK plates. The TST to work with these are mounted with a very tidy solution that connects to the clamps the tubing uses.





The energy from the BK and the TST units have multiple paths of travel connecting the tubing to the steel sections shown previously (above) that bolt to the seat. The seat section with all the tactile and this steel tubing is very heavy. So motion like VR3 was never going to work for me. SFX, however, will support the weight loads no problem.

New tubing has arrived as well as many new clamps, so a full structural build of this section can soon commence and test the tactile on. The focus at the moment is with the seat installation as its going to need quite a bit of configuration getting all the tactile and 6 or 8 exciters on the back of the seat to work together. This will be showcased in its own thread and could be interesting to see how well it works or seek further solutions. I am confident (based on previous tests) and (partial builds) that things should come together well.


I do have some additional improvements/modifications for the isolation towers that needs more bits n bobs ordered. One concern is to ensure the isolators cannot twist/rotate under stress from the motion or body movement, which may be possible with the current solution sandwiching everything together.

Time or days off between now and Christmas will be limited so progress will still be at a slow pace.