Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

Yeah, I was thinking the same about Mikes post. The larger transducers would not be an upgrade to the exciters they would be a compliment to them. Larger more powerful DSP amps are whats proposed/ recommended for the larger traducers. The 304' would "always" be used only for the exciters. I don't see the problem.
 
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Are there any thoughts on placing a transducer my wheel deck . Thinking of adding in a dayton puck to add a little engine vibration in the wheel.
Will this cause any damage to m wheel base ?
 
Yeah, I was thinking the same about Mikes post. The larger transducers would not be an upgrade to the exciters they would be a compliment to them. Larger more powerful DSP amps are whats proposed/ recommended for the larger traducers. The 304' would "always" be used only for the exciters. I don't see the problem.

If they are no plans to use bigger shakers you should be alright. Just pointing out that if you wanted to go to bigger shakers and use that amp you could have problems.
 
If they are no plans to use bigger shakers you should be alright. Just pointing out that if you wanted to go to bigger shakers and use that amp you could have problems.

Yes but the example given for its usage is ideal, nobody mentioned or recommended using them for anything else. It does not make sense to buy 4x £22 exciters to then power them with say a £300 amp. So we need a decent 4 channel amp thats affordable to get people interested and into tactile with an easy approach.

Specs Are Clear
The EPQ304 has a paltry 75 WPC, this is nearly double of the (exciters) so more than plenty for them but it's rather obvious for tactile transducers which can peak around 100W it is insufficient and would need to be driven hard constantly. That scenario for any amplifier is not a good combination when powering tactile. This before even accounting for wasted energy from installations. Sim based tactile has much more consistent usage of low frequencies than music or movies when multiple effects are being used. It can be VERY demanding on amplifiers.


The perception given of a user upgrading from a multi-exciter installation to then use the amp for larger units brings many disadvantages for the potential or perceived additional power/depth benefits of the larger unit. Even recent posts on these forums by members seeking to modify units for additional output gains fail to see that better tactile performance and detail can be had with the multi-exciter implementation with additional controls Shakeit offers and going beyond relying on a single unit often overloaded with multiple effects and maybe still via Simvibe CM type configuration.

Recently....
The problem I see, it appears a current trend or interest is with people focused on the (thump/whack) or depth potential of the unit and this as a primary goal to achieve. Rather than achieving the ability to have more effects operating at once with greater detail, increased stereo perception and smoother transitions of the effects over the user's body.

We now have more confusion and uncertainty for some in what to buy or do due to this...


Restricted Wattage / Using Pre-Amplification & Additional Options?
Here I will share some more on previous things I have done.
As it is possible to use a pre-amp to boost the gain which is applied after the soundcard and prior to the main amp. A user then can use the pre-amp to control (signal gain) volumes for convenience. It also can be a method to help ensure an amp is not operating close to its max output constantly.

Like this compact example I tried:
Excellent for 4 channel volume control beside the seat.
These can be used to help increase the dB gain of the input signal to the amp so that the amp then needs less actual amplification. It's also a good way to balance the output volumes of different makes/models of soundcards (Shakeit) However care needs to be taken not to have distortion with too much additional gain as this increases the whole dynamic range of frequencies.

Understanding What Is Happening With Tactile Audio
I showed an example of this and presume it does similar to what modifying units with leverage/weights do (potentially increasing the dB over the dynamic range). Yet this is still to be confirmed. At least with this hardware approach, we can monitor any applied bass/treble and dB output to see what differences it is making over the dynamic range. Its important to note that we cant do this with modding tactile units.

This was shown before but its an example of boosting the dB with a 40Hz test tone. You can clearly see how it affects the output intensity of the whole range when set to a 100Hz crossover. Not just boosting 40Hz alone as this is not how audio works.

Note: @ Top:
See 20Hz is 0dB & upto 80Hz is 0dB (from the 40Hz tone used) These are the surrounding frequencies generated from the 40Hz (fundamental frequency being used).

The 40Hz tone/curve is peaking at @+1.5dB

Note 2: @ Bottom:
See @10Hz is now 0dB & upto 95Hz is 0dB (from the 40Hz tone used)
The 40Hz tone/curve is peaking now at @+3.2dB


Compare the curves above the yellow 0dB line.

Example of applying additional bass via HA6000


What does this do?
It will give a fuller felt sensation from the unit as we have expanded the frequency dynamic range at the 0dB level. We also get a higher dB peak output as well, in fact double of the original signal input. Folks are you paying attention?

All this with no additional amplification from an amplifier. Using the same 40Hz test-tone. So with this method, (via Behringer HA6000), applied changes (bass/treble tone control and output dB) are controllable, but also can be monitored if desired.

This can not be said for (hope and see) type weight modifications others are pursuing which will fix the output of the unit to whatever way the additional modification alters it and no way to monitor how it is affecting the output exactly.

Now personally, I would much rather be able to adjust the bass/treble and input gain at will and leave it off if not wanted for whatever effects/roles the tactile unit is being used. Choice and control are good things to have without applying additional operating strain on an amplifier or making a tactile transducer operate in ways it was never designed. These are valid reasons I have no interest in modifying tactile.




Oh look its this thing again....

As an advanced user of tactile and experimentation of it I can say that Mixer/Splitter type hardware are good case examples to bring additional control or preference options to how the tactile may feel. Yet something few people have bought into or experimented with.

The Behringer PowerPlay models became favorites for me as they have bass/treble control as well as detailed meters and clip indicators. These are available in 4,6,8 channel offerings with even mono/stereo control as well. Certainly one of my favorite bits of audio hardware for its affordable price.

I speak only from the position of having tried, learned and sharing. Others will do what they want to do, follow their own path and continue to ignore the recommendations being offered...
 
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Hi,

I have been reading into tactile immersion and seems that more I read the more confused I get. So I thought I'd turn to you guys for assistance. Audiowise my knowledge is at a level that I know just about where I should plug-in my headphones on a computer...

I currently have a w.i.p 8020 rig coming together and a Sparco pro2000 plastic seat installed for it. I also have two Reckhorn bs-200i's and a leftover 2.1 amp that I'd like to use for this but am not sure if it's suitable. The amp is an AliExpress product, Lepy lp-838, specs on the product page say that its rated power is 2* 15w + 20w; peak power 200w; speaker impedance 2-8ohm. Any idea if it will work?

I'd like to plug the amp straight to internal soundcard and use usb headphones if possible.

Placement of the shakers doesn't seem to be much clearer - so far I have come across atleast three variations:
1. one shaker attached to pedal deck, one to seat (bottom?back?)
2. both shakers attached seat, one bottom, one back
3. shakers on both sides of the seat

Anyone with experience, which configuration works 'best'? I don't see myself going much forward on tactile front after these two shakers get installed as other parts of the system are in more need of tlc so I'm looking for a good overall feedback. I'm guessing installation of the shakers bolting them straight to the seat shouldn't be a problem?

If anyone can take the time and make this even slightly clearer to me I'd be grateful :)
 
Hi,

I have been reading into tactile immersion and seems that more I read the more confused I get. So I thought I'd turn to you guys for assistance. Audiowise my knowledge is at a level that I know just about where I should plug-in my headphones on a computer...

I currently have a w.i.p 8020 rig coming together and a Sparco pro2000 plastic seat installed for it. I also have two Reckhorn bs-200i's and a leftover 2.1 amp that I'd like to use for this but am not sure if it's suitable. The amp is an AliExpress product, Lepy lp-838, specs on the product page say that its rated power is 2* 15w + 20w; peak power 200w; speaker impedance 2-8ohm. Any idea if it will work?

I'd like to plug the amp straight to internal soundcard and use usb headphones if possible.

Placement of the shakers doesn't seem to be much clearer - so far I have come across atleast three variations:
1. one shaker attached to pedal deck, one to seat (bottom?back?)
2. both shakers attached seat, one bottom, one back
3. shakers on both sides of the seat

Anyone with experience, which configuration works 'best'? I don't see myself going much forward on tactile front after these two shakers get installed as other parts of the system are in more need of tlc so I'm looking for a good overall feedback. I'm guessing installation of the shakers bolting them straight to the seat shouldn't be a problem?

If anyone can take the time and make this even slightly clearer to me I'd be grateful :)
I am by no means expert, but my 2cents - have transducers as close to yourself as you can. My initial intuition was to place transducers at positions where wheels would've been, but friends told me shakers would likely be too weak, and they were right. You can see my mount https://www.xsimulator.net/communit...hakers-tactile-transducers.13618/#post-182746 . Interesting thing is that despite transducers being close, I can distinguish left from right, rear from front.

I will be replacing my rear mini's with full size units and moving mini's to sides, curious how will that turn out.
 
Around 120 euros is a decent pricetag for Behringer HA6000, right?

Well at least for UK this is lowest I have seen.
Do keep in mind additional cables will be needed.

This is also a very good bit of hardware to enable mixing "audio tactile" with "Shakeit" tactile if you want to experiment and achieve some sensations that are just not possible with telemetry. Each channel can allow (Aux/Main) mixing.

Its also looks friggin awesome all lit up when the channels are operating :)
 
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My initial intuition was to place transducers at positions where wheels would've been, but friends told me shakers would likely be too weak, and they were right. You can see my mount https://www.xsimulator.net/communit...hakers-tactile-transducers.13618/#post-182746 . Interesting thing is that despite transducers being close, I can distinguish left from right, rear from front.

I will be replacing my rear mini's with full size units and moving mini's to sides, curious how will that turn out.

Tip: You really should try the exciter and large unit combination.

Clearly you are quite serious in wanting a high quality tactile experience with what you already own. Trust me when I tell you, (having tested many options) being able to use multiple exciters for contact to (Shoulders/Sides/Spine) will be much better than two Mini Lfe on sides.

When you discover how well the direct detailing is with the ability to also feel much higher harmonics with these exciters. It brings greater character and finer representation with various effects including RPM having more liveliness and zing than most units can achieve. It also lets you split effects over multiple units rather than place them all on a single channel. Do not underestimate how well these can be combined with larger BK units.


The recommended exciters perform with the benefits TST units offer (improved mid-high Hz over BK units) but as they are small we can install and direct their energy to target specific body regions. We cant do this with TST units or typical transducers so easily on most seats.

These factors are big upgrades for immersion over what has become traditional "Chassis Mode" type installations many people have done in the past.

I am close to getting my own new build ready for experimenting and will showcase how well this can be done. It's taken a long time and been costly coming up with a unique installation approach that I wanted and pushes the boundaries.

Err this isnt it but.........

Lets try 6xBK for independent low bass extension with various effects roles under the seat.
*My BK units come in sleek de-badged "Dark Mode" :)
 
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have transducers as close to yourself as you can. My initial intuition was to place transducers at positions where wheels would've been, but friends told me shakers would likely be too weak, and they were right. You can see my mount https://www.xsimulator.net/communit...hakers-tactile-transducers.13618/#post-182746 . Interesting thing is that despite transducers being close, I can distinguish left from right, rear from front.

Good point - may I ask is there a specific reason on mounting your transducers to frame of your rig instead to the seat? Feedback positioning?

Err this isnt it but.........

Lets try 6xBK for independent low bass extension with various effects roles under the seat.
*My BK units come in sleek de-badged "Dark Mode" :)

Looks like you'll be able to simulate (or maybe even start) a local earth quake :)
 
Well at least for UK this is lowest I have seen.
Do keep in mind additional cables will be needed.

This is also a very good bit of hardware to enable mixing "audio tactile" with "Shakeit" tactile if you want to experiment and achieve some sensations that are just not possible with telemetry. Each channel can allow (Aux/Main) mixing.

Its also looks friggin awesome all lit up when the channels are operating :)
It seems a nice pricetag in Spain too.
I have been using a Realfeel seat pad for 10 months, so I´m carefully looking into expanding my tactile setup. About 6 small exciters. I may also need a different seat for better attachment of the exciters, something like a fiberglass baquet.

So you mean I could add effects out of raw sound volume to add up with the telemetry signal?
I always thought sound didn´t provide the most accurate feeling.
 
Good point - may I ask is there a specific reason on mounting your transducers to frame of your rig instead to the seat? Feedback positioning?
You are right, if your goal is highest force transfer, mounting them directly on the seat will probably be better. I did not do it because of couple of reasons:

* My seat does not have any open areas, so for example bottom area has some materials like suspenders etc. I saw seats that have shell visible, mine is not like that. And mounting them on non-hard surface made no sense. Also, my ultimate goal is GS5, and I do not want to re-mount.

* But mostly, because the reason I got into transducers in a first place is to feel what each wheel and suspension is doing. By hard attaching transducers to a steel frame I get good transfer of force, and vibrations travel everywhere just like they do in real life. Yet, I still can tell left from right and front from back.

With 80/20 rig, can you attach transducers without drilling? If so, I would just try many configurations to see what you like the most. Mounting matters for sure, because I just mounted LFE units in front, and likely because of how they are mounted, they do not feel that much stronger compared to Mini's.

Lastly, note I am very new to transducers and to me they are just an addition to motion, so take everything I say with a grain of salt :)
 
It seems a nice pricetag in Spain too.
I have been using a Realfeel seat pad for 10 months, so I´m carefully looking into expanding my tactile setup. About 6 small exciters. I may also need a different seat for better attachment of the exciters, something like a fiberglass baquet.

So you mean I could add effects out of raw sound volume to add up with the telemetry signal?
I always thought sound didn´t provide the most accurate feeling.

The exciters should perform much better than the seatpad. They have more frequency response. Yes fiberglass or carbon-based seat, as well as aluminum type seats, seem suitable for the exciters.

The HA6000 can be used to mix two inputs or if you wanted to have an "audio tactile" unit or pair of units you can experiment with that. It can be quite fun too. Some engines have very good detailing from the actual audio, though they need to be boosted with the soundcard and additional bass from the HA6000. I looked into this more last year using equalization with audio-tactile to better present the deep bass out from the audio.

Some sims have bumps/kerbs that seem to do nothing with telemetry tactile. Yet again with the audio tactile we can get tyre feedback (brrrrrrrrrr) sensations. Some sims produce very good stereo placement of the wheels. Its something I will cover in my own build but yes having the ability to have both or mix both can bring advantages in immersion.

This is not to say audio tactile does not have its own drawbacks as it does but new sims like ACC have some superb engine character, gearchange or exhaust sounds. These helps different cars feel unique and are examples of effect sensations we dont get in telemetry based tactile.

Personally I like having the option available to run with or without.
 
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Good. However Im very happy with my seat, it´s a great addition for simracing and flight sims. I will have to study how to combine the pad with exciters.
Speaking of those, I see a pricetag around 32€ for each Dayton Ultra, does it sound good? It´s amazon.
 
You are right, if your goal is highest force transfer, mounting them directly on the seat will probably be better. I did not do it because of couple of reasons:

* My seat does not have any open areas, so for example bottom area has some materials like suspenders etc. I saw seats that have shell visible, mine is not like that. And mounting them on non-hard surface made no sense. Also, my ultimate goal is GS5, and I do not want to re-mount.

* But mostly, because the reason I got into transducers in a first place is to feel what each wheel and suspension is doing. By hard attaching transducers to a steel frame I get good transfer of force, and vibrations travel everywhere just like they do in real life. Yet, I still can tell left from right and front from back.

With 80/20 rig, can you attach transducers without drilling? If so, I would just try many configurations to see what you like the most. Mounting matters for sure, because I just mounted LFE units in front, and likely because of how they are mounted, they do not feel that much stronger compared to Mini's.

Lastly, note I am very new to transducers and to me they are just an addition to motion, so take everything I say with a grain of salt :)

I believe suspension data is generated for all 4 wheels, so to have the most accurate response from the telemetry, we should seek to avoid having vibrations from the left to interfere with the right. This can be called stereo crosstalk and many peoples rigs do not maintain or represent this well at all but take the perspective you have shared. In that vibrations from a real car can transfer from one side to the other, so it's okay if that happens in their rig as well.

Suspension data cannot account for vibrational transfer on users, installations. To my understanding, the physics/telemetry data for a front left wheel over a chicane kerb will not just activate the suspension for that wheel alone. It will have a percentage of travel thus vibration on the other suspension/wheels as well. This is already calculated by the physics which the telemetry then uses and distributes to the other wheels.

So if a user has a rig that easily lets vibrations travel or mix, it will not give the same accuracy in stereo feedback as the force stronger on one side, it's energy could be converging to the other side polluting the distribution of energy that the physics/telemetry already has determined.

The primary vibrational energy and detail needs to go into the user, not the rig. For tactile its all about body contact, this is the priority. From my own testing, experimentation and monitoring. Having direct installation to the body region and immediate response of the energy to the user (limiting crosstalk of the vibrations) brings the best results. The user should seek to maintain the stereo distribution and positioning of vibration energy as best possible. This is achieved with more direct installations and limiting how/where the energy can transfer over a rig. Not by having units placed in the position of wheels and then their vibrations having to travel further and disperse freely over a rig prior to reaching the seat or pedals and eventually the user's related body regions.

On many peoples builds the tactile could easily blend between channels so that the user is then feeling combined channels. This will present a mono based immersion, defeating the feedback of positional effects like "suspension bumps", "lateral G", "speed-sensitive steering" and "wheelslip". These off the top of my head are the primary effects we can use with "directional stereo representation" in Shakeit.

I believe if done right, powerful and detailed tactile can work well in stereo and even complement motion. My own build is being built specially to reduce stereo crosstalk to a bare minimum as I feel stereo positioning is an important part of the immersion as is controlling the route/path of how/where the tactile can go.
 
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With 80/20 rig, can you attach transducers without drilling? If so, I would just try many configurations to see what you like the most. Mounting matters for sure, because I just mounted LFE units in front, and likely because of how they are mounted, they do not feel that much stronger compared to Mini's.

Lastly, note I am very new to transducers and to me they are just an addition to motion, so take everything I say with a grain of salt :)

Yeah, I think I'll mount the transducers to some scrap pieces first to test the configuration and once I get there, I'll hard mount them to the seat/pedal deck/where ever they may end up :D
 
I'm wanting to add tactile to my rig (GT Track cockpit, V3 motion seat), probably 4 corners + engine. I've read a lot here, but I'm not finding definitive answers to these questions:
  1. Is this useful or practical when I already have motion?
  2. If so, where should I mount 4 corners?
  3. What frequency range is typically used?
  4. Will my spare 5.1 amp (90w/ch) be sufficient for 4-5 transducers, or should I get more wattage/dedicated sub amps?
Great thread, thanks in advance!
 
I'm wanting to add tactile to my rig (GT Track cockpit, V3 motion seat), probably 4 corners + engine. I've read a lot here, but I'm not finding definitive answers to these questions:
  1. Is this useful or practical when I already have motion?
  2. If so, where should I mount 4 corners?
  3. What frequency range is typically used?
  4. Will my spare 5.1 amp (90w/ch) be sufficient for 4-5 transducers, or should I get more wattage/dedicated sub amps?
Great thread, thanks in advance!
I am currently running ProSimu T1000 rig with 6 transducers, last two arriving on Monday. Here's my 2 cents:

Static rig -> motion rig = huge step up in immersion
Static rig -> transducers = big step up in immersion
motion rig + transducers = step up in immersion, but not as big as above upgrades alone

Primary benefit imho is that you can simulate things that are missing in motion (because of either physics engine limitations or actuators limitations). IRL, if you lock wheels or skid, it produces strong sensation. But at least with rF2, there's nothing in motion. I am using SimHub, and now I can get skid and lock sensation. Also, improved road feel.

I am not expert on amps, but consumer amps are usually 6-8ohm output impedance. My transducers are 4ohm, so by the book that won't work. But you can buy them cheap used, I got ART SLA4 and Behringher NX6000 relatively cheap on ebay. If I was in your shoes I would still try your 5.1 amp (at your own risk, I've no idea what impedance mismatch might do to amp or transducers, I believe your amp will get hotter than normal), who knows maybe it will work, but those consumer amps were too big for my setup, that's why I got those rack style amps.
 
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Are there any thoughts on placing a transducer my wheel deck . Thinking of adding in a dayton puck to add a little engine vibration in the wheel.
Will this cause any damage to m wheel base ?

I've got an Aura Pro on my wheel deck. I use it for RPM and some road texture. I can feel it when I'm using the hand brake, sequential or h pattern shifter and some comes through the wheel. I'm using an SC2 Pro now which I'm absolutely not worried about. Nor was I worried about my CS 3.0 wheelbase before.
 

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