Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[nolive721]

Hey, no problems, early testing is showing one of the exciters to really excel, compared to some of the other units. Each has their own character output (some will be similar) but often we have to tone down certain peak Hz to help then better portray or boost others.

When a tactile unit is on the actual seat this is maybe more apparent as it is in direct contact and when using audio as a source. So EQ can be very handy to re-shape the unit's output to the desired preference, of course with some limitations of how each unit itself performs.

A problem with going into specific professional quality software for EQ or Crossover is that the price can be not that far off a hardware option.

I think the best option may be this as it is community-based but I have not yet looked deeply into it. APO EQ which appears to offer both EQ and Crossover control options. This also comes in different variants, it is not the same as PEACE APO EQ that I have shared in the past.

thank you for guiding me towards that software.Not super user friendly but seems to be the one I need to get my config running as I want it to.I had installed PEACE plug in which has a better UI but removed it since I got my Dayton pucs to output only low frequencies with below equalization with APO Config editor alone

Now I need to figure out how to output the Game Audio from the TV through my NVIDIA GPU sound output at the same time with Simhub Shakeit Bassshaker in the mix

 

[RCHeliguy]

Maybe I'm a bit too much of a wiring nut, but have any of you looked at these speaker cable quick connects?
I just ordered one with matching receiver for my rig. This will allow me to quick connect 4 speaker channels ( 8 wires ) with a simple insert and twist. These are used by bands to connect amps to speakers and should be durable and handle a lot of connect/disconnect cycles. I ordered some color coded 8 wire cables on Ebay
https://www.ebay.com/i/302031686787

Then again having my rig on wheels may be the only reason this matters to me. I love the idea of screwing the 8 wires directly into my amplifier board and just connecting my rig with a quick twist.

Then again maybe it's just me and my wiring fetish at work.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002BEVX5E/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[Mr Latte]

Is anyone using a Behringer NX 1000D
With Buttkicker Gamer 2s or mini concerts?
If so could you please screenshot your amp settings as I replaced my Buttkicker amps months ago and can’t get the NX100D to perform close to my Buttkicker amps
If you could share them I’d really appreciate it
Thanks

What settings have you been using
The knobs on the amp increase the input level only, the software gain levels in the crossover section determine the output gain. Both combined give you the total output. However you have to be careful of clipping if both the source level and the gain output is set too high.

Is your amp set to 2ohm and 250w watts digital limiter, as this matches the specifications of them.

thank you for guiding me towards that software.Not super user friendly but seems to be the one I need to get my config running as I want it to.I had installed PEACE plug in which has a better UI but removed it since I got my Dayton pucs to output only low frequencies with below equalization with APO Config editor alone

Now I need to figure out how to output the Game Audio from the TV through my NVIDIA GPU sound output at the same time with Simhub Shakeit Bassshaker in the mix
View attachment 299220

GameChanger?
I spent some time with the software briefly.
It has HUGE potential and yes I believe is ideal as it enables individual EQ or Crossover on a "Per Channel" Basis. Not just a limitation of one setting for all channels. This means we can easily use normal amps with DSP controls based at the PC/Soundcard level. Its going to be perfect to test these 6 tactile exciters. One 5.1 sound-card with suitable crossover and EQ to control each unit, with free software = AWESOME.

It also supports additional VST plugins but needs more investigation. Seems very powerful tool to use. Some plugins can be expensive as this is "professional based audio tools". I have to look into options that are free but may work in APO. Feel welcome to look into this yourself also.

Plugin Example:

Watch with HDMI and TV routing it can add delay and the TV may apply its own crossover or audio controls limiting the frequency outputs. Best to use other methods to have mirrored audio output. I can send audio from windows to headphones and TV so WIN10 now certainly supports more than one output for "System Primary Audio".


@RCHeliguy
Multicore cables are possible, I looked into this with the cable guide I did a while back. You will want individual (2 core) connectors at the amp end as typical amps will not support multicore connectors. Then use connections for whatever suits the tactile at their end. I too want to put extra effort into cabling for my build. Professional installation and look to it all is one of my priorities.

 

[Mr Latte]

I ordered one of these today.

Nobsound NS 20G
Its another new mini amp from Nobsound but this one with a difference...
It now has 2x100 watts of power and digital volume dial. This could be a superb little amp to get into tactile with guys.

Going to test it with various units as part of a 2019 guide on getting into tactile with a minimal budget.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Are you optimistic about that amp handling a 4 ohm load and having thermal shutdowns or are you using this for small pucks that don't draw much power?

BTW I've ordered an additional gain knob for my 400W, 4 channel x 100W system so I can individually adjust the volume on the seat and wheel mount. I'm leaving my front pair together on the same stereo volume knob. It will be time to redesign my enclosure after I install the single 8 wire speaker cable and single 8 pole quick connect to my rig.

BTW have you looked at these?
5 channel : https://emotiva.com/collections/amps/products/a-500 $499
7 channel: https://emotiva.com/collections/amps/products/a-700 $599

 

[nolive721]

thanks Mr latte

I am on business trip most of the week but will try to do some more testing when back home.

what I had tried so far, on top of filtering out the Bass shaker output frequencies above 100Hz with APO config Editor, was

1. TV output (NIVIDIA GPU) and Bass shakers output (Motherboard line out) combined via Voicemeeter> Still Game audio coming out the Bass shakers
2. Multiple channel output in Simhub Shakeit Bass shaker settings>> could not output sound from TV as "Audio not recognized"
3. Using Peace plugin with APO equalizer>>Same results than 1

I think I have to ditch Voicemeeter altogether and learn how to equalize "Per channel" with APO Configuration editor but will APO allow, has the built-in feature?, to output from a mix TV+Bass shakers then?
or I will still need the Voicemeeter software solution to mix audio outputs, what do you think if I may ask again?

 

[Mr Latte]

Are you optimistic about that amp handling a 4 ohm load and having thermal shutdowns or are you using this for small pucks that don't draw much power?

BTW I've ordered an additional gain knob for my 400W, 4 channel x 100W system so I can individually adjust the volume on the seat and wheel mount. I'm leaving my front pair together on the same stereo volume knob. It will be time to redesign my enclosure after I install the single 8 wire speaker cable and single 8 pole quick connect to my rig.

BTW have you looked at these?
5 channel : https://emotiva.com/collections/amps/products/a-500 $499
7 channel: https://emotiva.com/collections/amps/products/a-700 $599

I expect the N20 to be an ideal choice for the money for budget tactile.
So coping well enough with the sub $100/£100 units and upto the BK Mini Lfe models
The Nobsound amps (various models) have been getting pretty good reviews by people.

My thinking is, while it has more power than these "exciters need" or in fact most budget tactile below 50W. Firstly its good to not have to have an amp running continuously near its max potential. Also with its LED digits for volume, we can easily know we have the amp at a setting thats not too high and help protect them from overpowering. Additionally these are neat and compact so having 2x or 3x of them isn't a big problem for those with limited space or who don't like the idea of multiple larger amps.

Emotiva Amps
Emotiva do some very nice good and also high-end gear. They remind me of old school AV Receivers from the late 90s - 00s that used to have "multichannel inputs" with really good wattage. Something we don't see now very much on such amps or with them offering 4ohm support. Some were huge and heavy monsters.

Yes they are meant to be good as a brand but also not cheap. Some of the models, however, do not have a great deal of power when driving ALL channels @ 4ohm. So really they as single box multichannel solutions are not capable of powering beyond the BK Mini models.

Emotiva Example:
For the UK, heres an example with the Emotiva BasX A-800.
Its a single box solution for 8 Channels but costing £700 and it only delivers 50W per channel for ALL channels @ 4ohm.

Now, I could buy 4x of these N20 amps to power 8 units for under £200 and they have TWICE the wattage. Its clear to see what comes across as the better buy to power budget tactile units.

Or look at this as an example by iMG offering 8x channels @ 4ohms with 4x the wattage of the Emotiva and again a lot cheaper.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I'm unsure why you picked out a more expensive box that has less power than the models I listed. The 7 channel amp I listed could put out ~ 160W into 7 channels at 4 ohms, and the model you listed would cost a similar amount to get to the US. I'm guessing some of this has to do with pricing and availability in the US vs GB, so we may not have the same reference point.

I'm still enjoying my home brew 4 channel amp. It will have 3 volume knobs on it today so I'll have LR Front, Seat, Wheel/Shifter/Brake. I know it is only 4x 100W into 4ohms, but it's a good match for my transducers that are only rated for 50W.

That 8 pole connector and receiver came in. It has a decent current and voltage rating,quick connect positive lock and solid looking connectors. I have some 8 x 14awg cable coming this week to run from the amplifier to my rig. Now I can get rid of 8 banana connections with the potential failure point of 8 sets of nuts. The new receiver will have spade connectors in back. This will be much cleaner and much faster. I won't even need to look at it to get things connected properly.

 

[Mr Latte]

I'm unsure why you picked out a more expensive box that has less power than the models I listed. The 7 channel amp I listed could put out ~ 160W into 7 channels at 4 ohms, and the model you listed would cost a similar amount to get to the US. I'm guessing some of this has to do with pricing and availability in the US vs GB, so we may not have the same reference point.

I'm still enjoying my home brew 4 channel amp. It will have 3 volume knobs on it today so I'll have LR Front, Seat, Wheel/Shifter/Brake. I know it is only 4x 100W into 4ohms, but it's a good match for my transducers that are only rated for 50W.

That 8 pole connector and receiver came in. It has a decent current and voltage rating,quick connect positive lock and solid looking connectors. I have some 8 x 14awg cable coming this week to run from the amplifier to my rig. Now I can get rid of 8 banana connections with the potential failure point of 8 sets of nuts. The new receiver will have spade connectors in back. This will be much cleaner and much faster. I won't even need to look at it to get things connected properly.
View attachment 299580
View attachment 299577

Look forward to your updates and how you progress with the cables.

In my previous post, I just went with what Emotiva had on offer over here to use as a comparison. Often wattage for amps can vary between US/UK markets. The truth is very few people will want to spend high amounts of money on amps if they do not need to. Especially if using fairly ordinary tactile units. I listed a model that had similar wattage @160W over 8 channels and still was much cheaper than Emotiva options.

Other factors can come into play regards features etc. For instance, having individual volume controls per channel, can the amp accept different units with different wattages and resistance? Even with 170w per channel, it's not really enough for the larger BK units. So I don't see it as a, particularly ideal buy when other options for budget tactile are much cheaper and it cant really do the job of powering the most wattage hungry Buttkicker/Earthquake shakers.


Market prices vary, in the UK the Behringer NX4 6000 can be bought for £300 and 2 of these will not only give 8 channels. It has individual volume controls, support 2 or 4ohm shakers so different models are not an issue. Also can power okay 4x large BK units, this for me is a more suitable option for what we may want or need, (If) a user wants to reduce the number or clutter of amps.

I can only make recommendations to help, it's upto others to decide what is best or more suitable for them.

Delivery
The Nobsound N20 arrived, with additional exciters, it's so tiny and cute.
I don't see many budget options at the price of this with the level of build or spec it has.

FIRST IMPRESSIONS / YOUR KIDDING!!!!
Nope, Seriously 2x 100W @4 Ohms For Under £50





SBS Update

AT LAST
The New Beta Update for Shakeit is available with some incredible new features.

• Crossover Control
• New & Improved Effects
• Add/Remove Additional Effect Layers
• Add/Remove Custom Effects & Mapping
• New Engine Response Curve Control
• GUI Improvements
• Dashboard Feature (Realtime Monitoring)
• Sound Output Control To Multiple Channels Or Additional Soundcards
• More, more and more.....

Heres an example of early testing with "RPM Response Curve"
I have been looking forward to this and finding this really good in allowing the user to determine what and how the engine response feels. Below is only early mucking about to see what was possible.

This appears to now be much better than (Simvibe Harmonics) with greater user control. I've noticed with testing with the tactile exciters (still ongoing). Oh man, gees, they really help to deliver brilliant detailing and sensations with engine response and I want to make it clear, we can't get the same detailing with Buttkicers or many other tactile. This was with only testing two units, so I will do a proper review on these when I get 6 installed to the back of the seat.


How do you want it?
Keep it simple or add extra layers to create your own peak/curve for different RPM elements and individual character, the choice is yours....

Have layers use different frequencies but work in tandem with others or use specific layers for elements such as idle/inertia - low/mid - high/max rev sensations. Takes some playing around with but on this early beta, it is very promising.

RPM Peak Curves


If you follow this thread, try out the new Simhub Beta and these features.
I believe @Wotever would welcome your feedback and certainly deserves your support for bringing clearly what is sensational software.

 

[RCHeliguy]

The Behringer NX4 6000 does look like a good unit for pushing big transducers. Its $500 here in the states.

 

[Mr Latte]

The Behringer NX4 6000 does look like a good unit for pushing big transducers. Its $500 here in the states.

Yeah, I am aware of its price, it is exactly why I stated market prices vary as it is better value in the UK/Europe compared to what else we have here. I think the new Behringer range has come in at a higher price than the old but moreso for the US market ($50 increase on some). It's similar to the old prices here in the UK/Europe.

However do, feel free to find alternatives in the USA that are a quality brand and has similar specs.
Really though, very few readers here will need such as the vast majority of Sim racers will not want to spend that much on tactile anyways, never mind the price of multiple large BK units and high wattage amps to power them.

 

[Hiro Abe]

Okay @Mr Latte , you have forced me to try an exciter! I continue to
search for a satisfactory to me solution for engine vibes so going to give this a go. Kind of a no brainier since they are so inexpensive. I'm hoping i can stick with in-sim telemetry rather than play with the audio feed for simplicity's sake.

Looking forward to playing with the new features in SimHub! It's all that I've been using as of late. I'll probably grab the beta tonight.

 

[Mr Latte]

thanks Mr latte

I am on business trip most of the week but will try to do some more testing when back home.

what I had tried so far, on top of filtering out the Bass shaker output frequencies above 100Hz with APO config Editor, was

1. TV output (NIVIDIA GPU) and Bass shakers output (Motherboard line out) combined via Voicemeeter> Still Game audio coming out the Bass shakers
2. Multiple channel output in Simhub Shakeit Bass shaker settings>> could not output sound from TV as "Audio not recognized"
3. Using Peace plugin with APO equalizer>>Same results than 1

I think I have to ditch Voicemeeter altogether and learn how to equalize "Per channel" with APO Configuration editor but will APO allow, has the built-in feature?, to output from a mix TV+Bass shakers then?
or I will still need the Voicemeeter software solution to mix audio outputs, what do you think if I may ask again?

Yes, think you can ditch Voicemeter...
We need to look more into the dual audio out (stereo mixer). Windows can add a delay to the second device. It may not just be HDMI/TV as I mentioned earlier.

Shakeit, now includes a Crossover feature, however not confirmed yet if it can be updated to support different CO/EQ per channel that APO offers.

I have been playing a bit with APO and looking into using VST plugins for more advanced or visually appealing controls. So far I have tried Ozone8 and Nova.

Pretty Awesome!

We simply highlight the channels we want to use for each "Crossover/EQ" If desired we just (+) another set of controls for (Channel Selector) and then (Pre Amp). This would give you control of individual channels, their Gain Level output as well as Crossover/EQ.

I'm in no rush to dig deep into this but does look to be a really nice audio tool we could use to prepare/control "audio" for tactile purposes. Especially for those that do not have features like iNuke DSP.

Shakeit, now having a standard crossover that it does the same for ALL channels might cause a bit of an issue if some people have very different tactile as they may want/need individual CO/EQ for specific units. So I've asked the developer to see if this can be done in Shakeit via Fmod.'s feature set.

We can then mix system audio-tactile with sim telemetry based tactile via hardware prior to the amplification stage. This way both sources are presented/configured to offer a more engrossing tactile experience.

With "Audio Tactile" it can bring enjoyment to many other games/music/videos or consoles.

Personally, I like and want to have the option to be able to easily have my tactile operate as:

• Telemetry Tactile Only
• System Audio Tactile Only
• Both Via Controllable Mix
• I can Mix 2 Channel Audio or Upto 5.1 Channel Audio (Via Hardware)

 

[anton_Chez]

Where is the update available from?

 

[asteroulis]

FYI I have long ago solved all Voicemeeter Banana latency problems. Seen some videos, played with some settings, and am more than happy using it.
The UI is super friendly, and if you want to use it with the midi button software you can have all kinds of presets to switch instantly from sound , sound&tactile, or whatever.

 

[Mr Latte]

FYI I have long ago solved all Voicemeeter Banana latency problems. Seen some videos, played with some settings, and am more than happy using it.
The UI is super friendly, and if you want to use it with the midi button software you can have all kinds of presets to switch instantly from sound , sound&tactile, or whatever.

As their are various versions of it, would you mind doing a thread on showing everything it offers that you use it for and how you configure it. Not sure it offers everything we are doing here, especially with CO/EQ features. Also as a mixer, I don't think it can do all I want/need.

At the moment the only thing I see missing (that we need) is the ability to easily control windows to output primary audio to any selectable soundcards. Their may be a very simple app for this? I don't know of any other software that has CO/EQ controls like APO 1.2 offers. Or if VMB has limitations with its mixing.

For my own build, my own preference is using a hardware mixer. I just prefer that with its own physical knobs and per channel LED indicators etc. The HA6000 look great too when in action.

 

[Mr Latte]

Where is the update available from?

As its beta, I believe Wotever linked it in the DISCORD channel
Ver 6.8.0b3

In gratitude of its release and in appreciation I requested also a link to send him a further donation.
He deserves it as this has been months of work for this update and he communicates with the community helping constantly.

 

[asteroulis]

As their are various versions of it, would you mind doing a thread on showing everything it offers that you use it for and how you configure it.

At the moment the only thing I see missing is the ability to easily control windows to output primary audio to any selectable soundcards. I don't know of any other software that has CO/EQ controls like APO 1.2 offers. Or if VMB has limitations with its mixing.

For my own build, my own preference is using a hardware mixer. I just prefer that with its own physical knobs and per channel LED indicators etc.

I will have to do it , as I see there is a need for it .The problem is that I am not that keen on writing tutorials like you are , and I could postpone it forever. I will try my best though to overcome my procrastinating nature.

I wouldn't compare it to EQ APO , because APO is much more agile on doing very hardcore adjustments.( they can be used at the same time complementing each other , but I would only suggest that if one needs to add extra channels to an output or very complicated stuff) But it's much more complicated as well. VM Banana offers enough EQ control , with a very friendly UI , and easy , really easy control (preferably with an external Midi controller). I'm about to choose one to be used as a button box as well , so I'll write about that as well.

 

[Mr Latte]

I will have to do it , as I see there is a need for it .The problem is that I am not that keen on writing tutorials like you are , and I could postpone it forever. I will try my best though to overcome my procrastinating nature.

I wouldn't compare it to EQ APO , because APO is much more agile on doing very hardcore adjustments.( they can be used at the same time complementing each other , but I would only suggest that if one needs to add extra channels to an output or very complicated stuff) But it's much more complicated as well. VM Banana offers enough EQ control , with a very friendly UI , and easy , really easy control (preferably with an external Midi controller). I'm about to choose one to be used as a button box as well , so I'll write about that as well.

The solution is making this easy, thats one reason as well to buy a hardware mixer as it removes another software element to use/adjust. Lots of people are put off by this idea of mixing/ audio-tactile and telemetry tactile. I will find a solution one way or the other that helps make it more simplified yet can still offer quite technical abilities.

It IS worth doing, when done right but is quite a technical thing we need to improve and do a guide on at a later stage.

APO seems unique in certain features and is FREE.
Win 10 just makes a mess of easily selecting 2 soundcards to output "primary audio"

 

[RCHeliguy]

FYI, the spec's on this connector are 30A continuous @ 250V and 40A for audiosignal at 50% duty cycle.
rated for >5000 mating cycles. ( busy little beaver ) can handle up to 12awg wire.
Contact resistance <= 3mOhm
https://www.neutrik.com/en/product/nl8fc

However they specifically state that these should not be used for AC mains or a power supply connector. Instead they have these which also look great.
https://www.neutrik.com/en/product/nac3fc-hc