Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[anton_Chez]

Win 10 just makes a mess of easily selecting 2 soundcards to output "primary audio"

That's one thing W10 is GREAT at........

Making a mess.

 

[anton_Chez]

Thanks Rod. Haven't been active in that server for a while. Found the new beta and just donated (finally). Looks like a fair bit has changed. Now I have to play with everything AGAIN!

 

[RCHeliguy]

@RCHeliguy
Multicore cables are possible, I looked into this with the cable guide I did a while back. You will want individual (2 core) connectors at the amp end as typical amps will not support multicore connectors. Then use connections for whatever suits the tactile at their end. I too want to put extra effort into cabling for my build. Professional installation and look to it all is one of my priorities.

In this case the 8 wires could be screwed directly to my amplifier board.
However most amplifiers I've seen have speaker connections in back that allow you to simply insert speaker wire into a hole or wrap bare wire around a terminal and screw tighten. Supporting multiple wires simply means that you cut back the outer covering leaving enough length on the individual wires to strip them and reach each of the speaker terminals.
On the right side, the terminals are Front (L & R) then Wheel and Seat.

I will clean this up and build a proper enclosure at some point. This was just enough to hold the parts and nothing more.

My 8 pole wire should arrive tomorrow.

 

[Stevie_007]

The solution is making this easy, thats one reason as well to buy a hardware mixer as it removes another software element to use/adjust. Lots of people are put off by this idea of mixing/ audio-tactile and telemetry tactile. I will find a solution one way or the other that helps make it more simplified yet can still offer quite technical abilities.

It IS worth doing, when done right but is quite a technical thing we need to improve and do a guide on at a later stage.

APO seems unique in certain features and is FREE.
Win 10 just makes a mess of easily selecting 2 soundcards to output "primary audio"

MrLatte, what mixer would you recommend and how would you wire it up to say a pair of nx1000`s, do you connect them before the amp , cheers

 

[Mr Latte]

MrLatte, what mixer would you recommend and how would you wire it up to say a pair of nx1000`s, do you connect them before the amp , cheers

Yes with external hardware we apply this after the soundcard, so things like, EQ / Crossover / Mixing are before the amplification. The iNuke DSP or new (NX----D) series models could do Crossover and EQ within each amp. If somone owns those then they only need a mixer.

APO has an advantage in that it can apply and control different CO/EQ to multiple channels via one set of controls. Although like iNuke DSP once this is set we can generally leave it. Yes, it can be handy to have user presets for how attacking or engaging you want it all. I tested this idea with having like a car presets for "Comfort" / "Sport" / "Race" for different moods or scenarios.


I purchased two hardware solutions.
My preference was with the Behringer HA6000 that I have showed in the past.

Spent quite a lot of time researching different hardware but the HA6000 offered more features and controls than say the HA8000 (8 channels/less controls) or some other options.

Inputs & Outputs
Many mixers work in a way that you can combine multiple sources together and these come out via L/R stereo. What we want is a bit different, in that we want less sources (2-3 max) but have these as a mix come out say upto 6 or more outputs. It the reverse and not all hardware accommodates this.

1,2,3
I have a configuration that can mix 3 sources. This could be audio, some effects from SSW (Lateral G) as only SSW currently still offers this effect and whatever effects I wanted via Shakeit.

Current & Future
To be frank, the way things are progressing with Shakeit we may not need any other telemetry based software at all. It clearly is leading as the best and most comprehensive option. Previously Simvibe had the better "Engine" effects but not any longer with the new features. Also as I have covered before, SSW offered excellent "G-Force" effects. Which no other offers but I understand, will eventually come to Shakeit.

So really we may only need mixing for the audio-tactile in what it can add and offer that telemetry tactile does not bring.

Engine & Tactile / My Opinions Based On Tests
Lots of people focus on the engine as an effect to enjoy.
I can assure you that we do not get the best engine effects via Simvibe alone and using a single make/type of tactile unit. Be it even the large BK models. If some want to believe that then they clearly have not tested or experimented all options.

The simple reason is RPM covers a wide frequency range. To break things down, a large BK is brilliant at under 20Hz and good between 30-40Hz. This is important for the engine, no question.

However, the TST models feel more seamless or smoother and are much better with mid to high frequencies. In particular with 60-80Hz being a common peak with them. The tactile exciters as I have been sharing (with direct installation and placement) have a major advantage. As most tactile cannot be installed this way, to highlight specific body regions. As showcased, these are just superb with delivering the 30Hz and above.

When we take them beyond 150Hz and to the 200Hz they bring a sensation of reverb (seat becomes like a speaker). With crossover, we can reduce this to 100Hz 120Hz or whatever to mostly eliminate the audio sound that emits from the units.

Also with EQ we can control how strong the amplitude is with specific frequency bands (important feature) So with this we enable a way to tune to pref/taste. Reverb in different materials can vary, but ultimately when combined with the excellent "audio-tactile" from the many amazing sounding cars we have in sims this just takes the immersion much further. Particularly with good headphones with rich audio and then feeling it as well, it really can be awesome.

We generally use the "telemetry tactile" to give the energy we want over the RPM range or to represent instances like "idle" or "rpm limit" sensations.

 

[RCHeliguy]

At some point don't you find that you get unwanted noise in your quest for tactile goodness?

 

[Mr Latte]

At some point don't you find that you get unwanted noise in your quest for tactile goodness?

What do you mean by noise.
Distortion based noise? VIbrational noises?, reverb noises?
Or my wife screaming from downstairs that with all the tactile going she thinks a train is coming through the house

In my own build (with so much tactile being used) control of the tactile and isolation has been a major challenge and something, when I show the new build progressing, is unlike any other cockpit I've seen.

It's taken a lot of time, much more money than I wanted to spend but gradually evolved just by experimenting with ideas and testing.

 

[RCHeliguy]

The wife thinking a train is coming through the house one. That's what I meant

 

[Stevie_007]

Yes with external hardware we apply this after the soundcard, so things like, EQ / Crossover / Mixing are before the amplification. The iNuke DSP or new (NX----D) series models could do Crossover and EQ within each amp. If somone owns those then they only need a mixer.

APO has an advantage in that it can apply and control different CO/EQ to multiple channels via one set of controls. Although like iNuke DSP once this is set we can generally leave it. Yes, it can be handy to have user presets for how attacking or engaging you want it all. I tested this idea with having like a car presets for "Comfort" / "Sport" / "Race" for different moods or scenarios.


I purchased two hardware solutions.
My preference was with the Behringer HA6000 that I have showed in the past.

Spent quite a lot of time researching different hardware but the HA6000 offered more features and controls than say the HA8000 (8 channels/less controls) or some other options.

Inputs & Outputs
Many mixers work in a way that you can combine multiple sources together and these come out via L/R stereo. What we want is a bit different, in that we want less sources (2-3 max) but have these as a mix come out say upto 6 or more outputs. It the reverse and not all hardware accommodates this.

1,2,3
I have a configuration that can mix 3 sources. This could be audio, some effects from SSW (Lateral G) as only SSW currently still offers this effect and whatever effects I wanted via Shakeit.

Current & Future
To be frank, the way things are progressing with Shakeit we may not need any other telemetry based software at all. It clearly is leading as the best and most comprehensive option. Previously Simvibe had the better "Engine" effects but not any longer with the new features. Also as I have covered before, SSW offered excellent "G-Force" effects. Which no other offers but I understand, will eventually come to Shakeit.

So really we may only need mixing for the audio-tactile in what it can add and offer that telemetry tactile does not bring.

Engine & Tactile / My Opinions Based On Tests
Lots of people focus on the engine as an effect to enjoy.
I can assure you that we do not get the best engine effects via Simvibe alone and using a single make/type of tactile unit. Be it even the large BK models. If some want to believe that then they clearly have not tested or experimented all options.

The simple reason is RPM covers a wide frequency range. To break things down, a large BK is brilliant at under 20Hz and good between 30-40Hz. This is important for the engine, no question.

However, the TST models feel more seamless or smoother and are much better with mid to high frequencies. In particular with 60-80Hz being a common peak with them. The tactile exciters as I have been sharing (with direct installation and placement) have a major advantage. As most tactile cannot be installed this way, to highlight specific body regions. As showcased, these are just superb with delivering the 30Hz and above.

When we take them beyond 150Hz and to the 200Hz they bring a sensation of reverb (seat becomes like a speaker). With EQ we can control this to taste (reverb in different materials can vary) but ultimately when combined with the excellent "audio-tactile" from the many amazing sounding cars we have in sims this just takes the immersion much further. Particularly with good headphones with rich audio and then feeling it as well.

We generally use the "telemetry tactile" to give the energy we want over the RPM range or to represent instances like "idle" or "rpm limit" sensations.

Many thanks, so from my sound card I would go into the ha6000 then out into the inuke then to the tactile,
The apo software does that equalise the sound card or does it replace the inuke software
Sorry this is all confusing to me, I currently have a rig with 2x life concerts for rpm, keen to use shake it over simvibe justinstalled the beta and the options are great

 

[Mr Latte]

The wife thinking a train is coming through the house one. That's what I meant

Ahh, LOL.

This is one of the things that has had me not rush with SFX. (Upstairs room / wooden rafters building)

Honestly, I won't know if the planned solution for the isolation being used works until I build the rig.
The whole custom made frame for seat/pedals will have some mechanical leverage/movement.

It's crazy man (as people will soon see) but I like the challenge it brings, the extravagance in how OTT it has become and sense of adventure in it all. Its part of the hobby to see how far I could push the boundaries and I think an inner child not knowing when enough is enough.


I also want it to look awesome and yes like you professional cabling etc

It's not all about the power output though, this will be a very fine-tuned tactile based rig and like no other. The tactile journey in this for me is as much of an interest as the gaming. I'm not the typical hardcore sim-racer.

 

[Mr Latte]

Many thanks, so from my sound card I would go into the ha6000 then out into the inuke then to the tactile,
The apo software does that equalise the sound card or does it replace the inuke software
Sorry this is all confusing to me, I currently have a rig with 2x life concerts for rpm, keen to use shake it over simvibe justinstalled the beta and the options are great

Yes APO offers standard GEQ or PEQ as well as crossover filtering.
We could have it replace the iNuke DSP (although it has other amp specific features).
It needs more looking into but it opens the door for two things

1) Bringing a great deal of control and precision
2) Being incorrectly used/abused and making things a lot worse

With tactile it's good to experiment...
Enjoy and let us know how well you get on with Shakeit.

We perhaps could consider a thread on discussing Shakeit for its effects and settings.
However the beta and features may still change so I was holding off.

Best to chat in the discord or share/compare/discuss settings that work well.

 

[RCHeliguy]

It sounds like we drank the same KoolAid. I have gone OTT on so many things now that my wife doesn't even bat an eyelash anymore. That said she has a huge custom closet that took over an adjoining bedroom with a wall for purses, another for shoes, etc, we just finished a down to the subfloor demo and kitchen remodel.

Her only stipulation on my rig is that is be mobile.

I get your pride and the fun of a quest for a goal.

My plan is that once I have my new Heusinkveld controls and a DD wheel that I'll sit tight for a little while. I guess we'll see how well that works.

 

[Mr Latte]

So for those getting some of these recommended exciters.
Here = USA UK/Europe Here or Here

This should prove that enjoyable tactile does not have to be expensive or complicated.
You do not need to spend $90 on Simvibe when Shakeit is free (donation deserved for developer)

Before we even consider telemetry based tactile are you ready to be surprised by how good these exciters are when we use specific body regions.

Now, here is a simple test, use your audio output, use a "Y" adapter to duplicate/split it for the tactile and for headphones. Dont even bother with CO/EQ for now (while it can improve things)

Attach two units to your shoulders for the back of the seat like I showed in images. Now feel how the engine character and other elements including stereo curbs come across through these videos.

No Simvibe or other telemetry based tactile.
Just get a taste of this on its own for what it can add (not what it is missing) that we can get with telemetry based tactile.

Really, I think people are crazy not to want to achieve being able to enjoy both audio-tactile (*like this) and then the benefits that Shakeit can also bring.

Keep in mind guys....
We may not even need to go to the lengths of problematic mixing. It is very easy to have 2x tactile units operating on the seat with audio only tactile. Then have other units for specific effects deployment via Shakeit. Lots of potential and fun to be had to your racing and immersion.

 

[anton_Chez]

I might go this way then if I can use my proper Sound Blaster Z sound card to give the audio. Not sure how it will work when using the Pimax headphone jack for my audio though. That shows up like a USB sound card.

 

[Stevie_007]

Yes APO offers standard GEQ or PEQ as well as crossover filtering.
We could have it replace the iNuke DSP (although it has other amp specific features).
It needs more looking into but it opens the door for two things

1) Bringing a great deal of control and precision
2) Being incorrectly used/abused and making things a lot worse

With tactile it's good to experiment...
Enjoy and let us know how well you get on with Shakeit.

We perhaps could consider a thread on discussing Shakeit for its effects and settings.
However the beta and features may still change so I was holding off.

Best to chat in the discord or share/compare/discuss settings that work well.

Another question sorry, trying to take all this in, so if my current setup is soundcard-inuke-tactile. Would I connect it like soundcard-inuke-ha6000-tactile, if so what do you setup the volumes on the inuke to.
Just trying to work out what cables I need if I was to mix audio and tactile,

 

[RCHeliguy]

@Mr Latte I thought you might like this. My 8 wire cable didn't arrive on time and I had passed the point of no return on converting over to the new connector on my rig, so I just took my existing speaker wire and some Flex F6 sheathing. It worked well. So you can stick with your existing speaker wire if you want to.

These connectors can easily handle 14 or even 12 awg speaker wire. I'm using 16awg, but I doubled it over when I screwed them down. There is plenty of room in the trunk tightener on the back for larger wire however it still clamps down snugly on the width I have now to take pressure off the individual wires.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte I thought you might like this. My 8 wire cable didn't arrive on time and I had passed the point of no return on converting over to the new connector on my rig, so I just took my existing speaker wire and some Flex F6 sheathing. It worked well. So you can stick with your existing speaker wire if you want to.

These connectors can easily handle 14 or even 12 awg speaker wire. I'm using 16awg, but I doubled it over when I screwed them down. There is plenty of room in the trunk tightener on the back for larger wire however it still clamps down snugly on the width I have now to take pressure off the individual wires.
View attachment 300013
View attachment 300016

Thanks for showing what your doing and about the cabling...

 

[Mr Latte]

Another question sorry, trying to take all this in, so if my current setup is soundcard-inuke-tactile. Would I connect it like soundcard-inuke-ha6000-tactile, if so what do you setup the volumes on the inuke to.
Just trying to work out what cables I need if I was to mix audio and tactile,

Like this:
Soundcard - Mixer/Crossover (or other hardware) - Amp - Tactile

Volume can be altered in different ways, if your stuck come the time we can help.

• Soundcard Output
• Telemetry Software Channel Output Gain
• Individual Effects Output Level
• Amps Input / Output Level

Dual Output - Audio Devices
I relooked again at the Windows 10 Dual Device Output.
With my Omni soundcard (What You Hear) is used, then I select the secondary device. Another option for some soundcards is using "Stereo Mix" within "Recording" if, it's made visible and enabled.

Here is an example of my TV as an additional device and about to change it to a secondary soundcard.

Hold off at the moment on the HA6000
Let me test the seat with 6x Exciters and use 2 from the 6 as "audio tactile" only combined with the 4 others all using Shakeit effects. I will also spend some more time looking at APO 1.2 and testing it via this dual output stuff.

Its all good as progress is being made and a tutorial can be done....

 

[RCHeliguy]

FWIW I'm not trying to change your design or aesthetics. If you have a plan that you like go for it. I have only 4 channels and for now I'm perfectly content.

My solution is very primitive compared with what you are doing so my needs are by definition different.

 

[nolive721]

Like this:
Soundcard - Mixer/Crossover (or other hardware) - Amp - Tactile

Volume can be altered in different ways, if your stuck come the time we can help.

• Soundcard Output
• Telemetry Software Channel Output Gain
• Individual Effects Output Level
• Amps Input / Output Level

Dual Output - Audio Devices
I relooked again at the Windows 10 Dual Device Output.
With my Omni soundcard (What You Hear) is used, then I select the secondary device. Another option for some soundcards is using "Stereo Mix" within "Recording" if, it's made visible and enabled.

Here is an example of my TV as an additional device and about to change it to a secondary soundcard.

Hold off at the moment on the HA6000
Let me test the seat with 6x Exciters and use 2 from the 6 as "audio tactile" only combined with the 4 others all using Shakeit effects. I will also spend some more time looking at APO 1.2 and testing it via this dual output stuff.

Its all good as progress is being made and a tutorial can be done....

definitively will try that.

I managed to get my set-up working as I wanted in terms of output.After an hour of fiddling between Simhub, APO Equalizer and Voicemetter what I found is that Voicemeeter in this config would output Game audio to my TV and Tactile feedback from my motherboard onboard sound to my Dayton pucs without high frequencies involved in the process

In A1 HW out, you have the choice of WDM or MME drivers. With WDM chosen, the bass shakers would output Game audio (including these high frequncies I want to eliminate) but for whatever reason, MME would kill them

Problem is that as expected from these old audio drivers, there is noticeable latency and the shakers feedback is not as clean as with the WDM drivers

I was really trying hard to get APO to output what I found controlling both TV and shaker output but no joy with below config

I have progressed but not where I wanted to be