Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[eSEA One]

I totally get what your saying.

I've helped and seen people with using small Dayton Puck and they still enjoy the tactile it brings. Even though they are experiencing it in a rather limited way, yes what it adds is often missed or hard to go back to racing/gaming and then not using it.

The Sinustec model you have does appear to be similar to the Reckhorn. Although I am not certain if identical as the Reckhorn BS200i which stated here had an improved magnet incorporated to previous versions of the Reckhorn model. They may indeed use identical components.

If so then certainly in the UK/Europe the Sinustec ST-BS 250 available for @ £10 less than the BS200i. So is a good purchase for such a low price. These may be one of the best budget transducers available as the ADX over here in UK is almost twice the price. Between these, the performances may be rather similar.

To be honest I'd love to test and take apart "Barry Roland" style all 3 to find out.

The other model you have appears to be like a Sintron / Rockwood model so I certainly expect it to offer less depth/energy and less detailing too with higher frequencies. It's harder to recommend these and not spend a bit more to get something better.

Thanks for sharing and I look forward to your own tests.

I started testing last night but ran out of steam after getting home late yesterday! I do have a question though!
there is the volume on the amp and the volume on the tone tester site, How would I use them?
What I started to do was put the amp for each of 1/2, 3/4, 4/4 volume levels I would run through the tone gen volume's 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and 4/4, making an evaluation of what I felt. What I did notice towards the top end of the tones I tested on the El Cheapo's that the feel would be the same if not a little less the more I cranked the volume up, I guess this is the unit or the amp hitting its limit! More than likely the amp not delivering what the so called 100w transducer is rated for. Not surprising .
However the thing that surprised me was the these El Cheapo's were actually delivering in the 10Hz range!
Here is a link to my work in progress spreadsheet with me running out of power before the 60hz test. I might have to change the numbers once I test the Sinustec ST-BS 250.
My take on these are that the Reckhorn upped there unit and just re branded there existing stock and parts as the "Sinustec ST-BS 250"

 

[Mr Latte]

For volume its a matter of balancing to what feels like a decent level.

You can set your sound-card at max output. With this increased gain an amplifier will need to use less watts.This may suit a scenario in where an amplifier is needing to be run close to its max continuously or struggling to meet the desired output levels. By increasing the gain from the sound-card then this would help.

Some people find having their amplifier set to around or just over half is ideal. This way it is avoiding potential distortion, overheating or operating close to its limits. Then set the sound-card output gain to the level that feels comfortable. If you leave some scope with the sound-card volume then it's easy to increase the volume/gain via the software. This would be good for variations in sims or content being used. Rather than perhaps changing the dial on the amp, so this can be more convenient.

Dont be surprised that you may feel a sensation at 10Hz the question is the quality and energy that is felt, even when you go to increase the sound-cards gain or amplifiers volume. Thanks for doing tests btw...

 

[Ceolmor]

This post about seeking guidance from others to add tactile feedback to a sim rig has been moved to it's own thread. Please have a look here if you are interested.

Getting into Tactile Immersion - Help please? Thanks

 

[Mr Latte]

However the thing that surprised me was the these El Cheapo's were actually delivering in the 10Hz range!

I am no expert in this field but to help understand....

People sometimes think that if they set a 10Hz Sinewave Test Tone that it will only output a 10Hz tone and nothing else.

The value you are entering is what is referred to as the "Center Value". If it is a single pure tone then this is also known as the "Fundamental Frequency". Harmonics however also play their part.
Often in audio the "Fundamental Frequency" is also known as the "First Harmonic".

Here is an example of 10Hz on the left and 20Hz on the right from a test tone generator.
What you see below is these tones, the "Surrounding Frequencies" on either side of the tones "Center Value" and also "Harmonic Frequencies" being included. As the dB decreases it can be seen to be wider/thicker due to the harmonics operating for these two examples of "Sinewave" tones. Look on the chart at the frequencies at -1dB -2dB & -3dB for the two examples given.

I highlight this as one reason why you will be feeling sensations at the 10Hz value.
You could be feeling the surrounding frequencies and harmonics generated not just a 10Hz tone.

This same principle forms within Simvibe with the "big/sml" bump values or for engine tone generation using the "high/low" tone values the user gives for such effects.

Click then Click again for larger.

Left Channel 10Hz / Right Channel 20Hz example


Now, just outta interest lets compare to using 100Hz & 200Hz tones.


In this example, you notice how narrow the frequency is.
Also regards the 100Hz tone, you can see it's 2nd harmonic much clearer now. Certainly easier than we could with a 10Hz tone and it's 2nd harmonic at 20Hz then a 3rd harmonic at 40Hz yet it looked like one big fat single tone as so close together. In this case with 100hz, while at a volume that won't even be felt, it is still possible to see its 2nd harmonic at 200hz @ -70dB.

* If increasing or decreasing the amplitude of the frequency it will also affect the surrounding frequencies being used.

Hope this helps giving a bit of info on frequencies operation.

 

[Mr Latte]

I hope this is the right place to post this. Noob enquiry here. I have a good 80/20 rig with a fibreglass racing bucket seat. I am getting good ffb from my wheel, but I am looking to dip my toes (or backside) into the world of tactile immersion. I do mostly Assetto Corsa with some DiRT Rally and rFactor2. Maybe also PCars2 next month.

What I'm looking for is two shakers for the seat (left and right) to give me engine, gear change, bumps and rear slippage tactile feedback. Later, I might want to extend simvibe to other parts of the rig (pedals) but I want to keep it simple at this stage until I better understand what I'm doing. I've read a lot of threads, but still have a lot of questions, so am looking for some guidance please:

Noise
I've read reports of people not using simvibe due to the noise and the shakers becoming expensive paperweights. Is simvibe noisy? This would be an issue for my wife!! My rig is upstairs on carpet with cushioned underlay. I can isolate the seat with rubber isolators. I can put rubbers isolators between the rig and the carpet. Will this be necessary? If I do all this, will the shakers or rig still make a noise?

Amplifier
I think this one is simple. The iNuke NU1000 DSP seems to be the way to go. Would go for the iNuke NU3000 DSP if that was considered necessary or advisable. Is it?

Shakers
The Buttkicker Mini LFE mini would be the simplest option, as they are currently available in the UK and I can get brackets here to easily attach to the rig. But, should I be concerned about the apparent noise issue? I've seen the testing on resolving the issue, but would I be better to avoid having to do a work-around and go for a different shaker instead. How would the ADX Maximus compare, which is also available in the UK? Would it be quieter? Would it be as good as the Mini LFE?

Placement

It seems I have a number of options. (a) The shakers sitting on the aforementioned brackets attached to the outside of the two runners. (b) Each shaker bolted to either side of a sheet of aluminium or wood attached to the bottom of the two brackets. (c) Each shaker bolted to either side of a sheet of aluminium or wood attached to the bottom of the runners. (d) Shakers bolted directly to the bottom and back of the seat (which I'd prefer to avoid if possible as I don't want to be drilling holes in my seat.)

Does anyone have any thoughts on which might be the best? Maybe there is a better option I've not thought of. Wood or aluminium? Where is it best to put isolators. With these placements (except d) will I feel any left and right separation?

Software
I am now thinking of trying the SSW, which is a bit cheaper and may suit my 'simple' needs. Will this give me what I am looking for?

Any advice will be gratefully appreciated, and hopefully will assist others who might be thinking along the same lines as me. If this is the wrong thread for this, someone please point me in the right direction.

Thanks in anticipation.

Hi thank you for posting...

With you wanting to cover so much, I welcome others in giving you help from their own experiences as well as me offering advice. Although in your case this is a good example when maybe the user should consider doing their own thread and invite others to give recommendations?

If you reposted and pasted what you have with for your own rig, questions etc and then follow up responses with it being put together. Let people follow your journey, inc your testing and your own feedback, thoughts findings etc. I think that is going to be easier to keep all your own relevant stuff together and not mixed with other posts etc. It will also make an excellent thread for others to view, take part in or learn from as well.

It may get hard in here, as one thread to try and keep track of various peoples own specific rigs/questions and updates.

* You have some specific issues that not everyone has with regards to operation noise and importantly vibration noise dispersing into other rooms. This needs improved "isolation" and can be achieved in different ways. What is required depends on the power and units you may be using.

Adding "audio tactile" with many harmonics of various frequencies can generate more vibrations. This is however also relevant to Simvibes own "Harmonic" engine mode. But here unlike "Audio Tactile" the user generates (fake/proposed) engine vibration for the car they want. This shifts the "Fundamental Frequency" and then determines what frequencies and harmonics are generated for the V4-V12 engine options. I studied this in great depth personally.

With "Audio Tactile" for engine usage then in many games these days the user is feeling "Actual Recordings" from the real car but these then will include transmission noises, whine, exhaust etc. Either way the user can compare and determine for themselves to their own preference what to use.


Some stuff.....
iNuke will let you control the tactile that with decent isolation you will still be able to game at night with tactile and it not perhaps be an issue. Its rather simple to create a "Midnight Mode" on the iNuke via its PEQ controls and load it as a profile when needed. This and more we can discuss if you want.

I will say this again, do not overlook SSW at this moment it is rather underestimated or potentially being overlooked by Simvibe owners.

It can deliver what a GS4 motion seat delivers but in tactile. Yet based on how it uses "audio files" to generate the tactile compared to Simvibes "tone generation" it can give us, more control to build "audio waveforms" in a single file, being more detailed or suited for specific effects/purposes and not have to try and build these from multiple layers of tones in Simvibe.

For example: I can build a "Gear Change" effect to feel better in a single file for SSW than from trying to combine 8 individual layers in Simvibe. This with the intention to get a feel/sensation to suit the car being driven if desired or persons own preference.

If you want to incorporate in a rig:

• SSW Tactile Effects
• Simvibe Engine & Additional Effects
• Audio Tactile

Working individually or combined to work very well together it IS possible and with excellent results.
Each has their own advantages and disadvantages.

PM me if you want to skype for a chat sometime..

 

[eSEA One]

Can do shorter posts (honest) for example:

I can't say exactly until you share what you are using or how you want to configure your tactile installation/configuration.

Coming back to the crossover! For the sub The LePye's 2+1 use the + of the left and right and the - from both. So using the crossover feeds only a single driver. Whereas if I use my 2 channel crossover before the amp will l have the crossover on both channels?

 

[Mr Latte]

Coming back to the crossover! For the sub The LePye's 2+1 use the + of the left and right and the - from both. So using the crossover feeds only a single driver. Whereas if I use my 2 channel crossover before the amp will l have the crossover on both channels?

Yes you have this correct as on the LePye's it is only creating a single bass output from the L/R channels for a 3rd device. Your usage of the crossover is different in that you are wanting to limit/reduce what the L/R channels themselves will output.

I used to do this years ago with "Audio Tactile" using the Behringer FBQ 3102 (31 band graphic equaliser) which included crossover control also. This was done prior to amplification, so connected between the soundcard output and before the amp.

 

[eSEA One]

Yes you have this correct as on the LePye's it is only creating a single bass output from the L/R channels for a 3rd device. Your usage of the crossover is different in that you are wanting to limit/reduce what the L/R channels themselves will output.

I used to do this years ago with "Audio Tactile" using the Behringer FBQ 3102 (31 band graphic equaliser) which included crossover control also. This was done prior to amplification, so connected between the soundcard output and before the amp.

Thanks was just checking to see if my logic ...well was logic!! Anyway plugged it all in and....well that sorts that one out!!! it does the job but unfortunately it also reduces the volume. Having said that if I go back to your previous post (#64) my logic tells me that if you are cutting out the higher tones the overall perception is less even if only generating the low tones! once again I am putting my logic on the line But then it could just be that the thing is a cheap bit of kit!

 

[Mr Latte]

Can you show me the controls for your crossover you have or can it determine the slope the crossover uses? Does its manual give any technical information on how it operates? For example its slope as rate of drop off being 6dB, 12dB, 18dB, 24dB, 48dB?

In more professional audio software/hardware there are various types of crossover and slopes available for specific usages or perhaps material. I will illustrate later the iNUke DSP features for an example and this may help give more understanding towards learning of controlling frequencies etc.

From a tactile perspective, if a unit is producing more audible sound and not actual worthwhile felt vibrations then it's not really offering what you may want it to be delivering. Or you may need care that when trimming higher frequencies it is not trimming some valuable felt frequencies. This would depend on the slope the crossover uses and the gain applied as the trimming begins prior to the value of Hz used as the crossover point.

I will illustrate this in future post...

 

[Dennis Johnson]

Try this if you could.

Here are my results using the online tone generator. Hope this is helpful.
Used Online Tone Generator with Volume at 70%
Amplifier volume at 100%
Hz ADX Maximus BK LFE TST 239 TST209 BK Adv BK Gamer
10 0 Bad Piston Bang 0 0 some Piston bang some Piston bang
20 1 3 0 0 2 4
30 3 4 1 1 4 2
40 4 5 1 1 3 2
50 5 3 3 3 3 2
60 4 3 5 5 3 2
70 3 2 4 4 3 3
80 3 2 4 4 2 3
90 3 2 4 4 2 2
100 2 1 3 3 2 3
110 2 1 2 2 2 3
120 1 1 2 2 2 2
130 1 1 2 1 1 1

P.S.
I did your FXXL profile in simvibe. I tested several cars in AC and Project Cars. This was a very nice improvement over anything that I had configured. I believe I will use this as a general universal setting for all my cars and sims. I did, at your suggestion, up the Hz by 10Hz on all settings where I am using the TST transducers. And I lowered the Peak Limiter on all my transducers.

Thanks for all your help.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Dennis Johnson, not at all thanks for all that you did here, it must have taken some time....
Great to get your input with such a varied range of models.

I will look further into these scores, already see interesting patterns based on my own and other peoples feedback.

It seems judging by your scores here (while not conclusive) the largest BK model you have, which is known as the CONCERT or BK-CT is indeed perhaps tuned differently to the alternative LFE or BK-LFE model. The manual refers to this between each model but I often queried if it was true or just marketing. (Think I covered this in the CM Vs EM thread)

Your scores at 10Hz and 40Hz seem to go in line with the CONCERT model tuned more for bass to suit music instrument application. Whereas the BK-LFE model will easily hit 10Hz and below. So this is an interesting report you have given.

You seem to be confirming increased detail with TST above that @ 60Hz range to some of the others, that I usually mention.


Will maybe catch you again on Skype sometime.
I'd be interested in going over the iNuke DSP PEQ feature to compare your BK-CT to the BK Advance to see what comes about with some of the frequencies. By all means let me know in some way if you want to do this, sometime.

 

[eSEA One]

Can you show me the controls for your crossover you have or can it determine the slope the crossover uses? Does its manual give any technical information on how it operates? For example its slope as rate of drop off being 6dB, 12dB, 18dB, 24dB, 48dB?

In more professional audio software/hardware there are various types of crossover and slopes available for specific usages or perhaps material. I will illustrate later the iNUke DSP features for an example and this may help give more understanding towards learning of controlling frequencies etc.

From a tactile perspective, if a unit is producing more audible sound and not actual worthwhile felt vibrations then it's not really offering what you may want it to be delivering. Or you may need care that when trimming higher frequencies it is not trimming some valuable felt frequencies. This would depend on the slope the crossover uses and the gain applied as the trimming begins prior to the value of Hz used as the crossover point.

I will illustrate this in future post...

I did say cheap! That's it and no manual or technical info!!

 

[Mr Latte]

You may find the 125Hz is best if the 80Hz is already starting to reduce the dB of some frequencies before the 80Hz setting. Really some trial and error with testones and adjusting is what you should try.

A standard software EQ will have sliders at approx each octave
30Hz 60Hz 120Hz 250Hz

Using these and greatly reducing (all the way if necessary) those at and above say 250Hz will do a similar thing as you're attempting to do with this crossover.

 

[Mr Latte]

@eSEA One



So two "Low Pass" 100Hz Crossovers set
Both using "Butterworth" type. One with 6dB and the other with 48dB slope.

See grid:
Notice how the Blue with 48dB slope is like a cliff. It only starts dropping the dB at approx 90Hz and is about -2dB at the 100Hz mark.

Yet the orange with 6dB slope is very gentle and long. Notice however it starts dropping dB at approx 30Hz onwards. It too is approx -2dB at the 100Hz mark but has had an effect on a larger range of frequencies before and after the 100Hz point.

On the iNuke DSP slopes can be selected in 6dB, 12dB, 18dB, 24dB and 48dB along with different types of crossover filter to get a slope/reduction that the user may want.

This is just a small example illustration in how a crossover could be used.
Yet so simple as everything is clearly displayed and one of the excellent iNuke DSP features

* What you may of been experiencing with your "reduces the volume" comment is that the crossover your using is reducing frequencies dB prior to the Hz value you set it at. Like this orange slope example. Some units may use a 18dB slope which would only start dropping the dB around 70Hz if set to a 100Hz crossover value. It all depends on what the unit uses or allows control of. Your min/max levels may adjust this "slope" value but when you visually can't see it then its a bit more awkward.

Hope its some help or gives some understanding.

 

[eSEA One]

@eSEA One



So two "Low Pass" 100Hz Crossovers set
Both using "Butterworth" type. One with 6dB and the other with 48dB slope.

See grid:
Notice how the Blue with 48dB slope is like a cliff. It only starts dropping the dB at approx 90Hz and is about -2dB at the 100Hz mark.

Yet the orange with 6dB slope is very gentle and long. Notice however it starts dropping dB at approx 30Hz onwards. It too is approx -2dB at the 100Hz mark but has had an effect on a larger range of frequencies before and after the 100Hz point.

On the iNuke DSP slopes can be selected in 6dB, 12dB, 18dB, 24dB and 48dB along with different types of crossover filter to get a slope/reduction that the user may want.

This is just a small example illustration in how a crossover could be used.
Yet so simple as everything is clearly displayed and one of the excellent iNuke DSP features

* What you may of been experiencing with your "reduces the volume" comment is that the crossover your using is reducing frequencies dB prior to the Hz value you set it at. Like this orange slope example. Some units may use a 18dB slope which would only start dropping the dB around 70Hz if set to a 100Hz crossover value. It all depends on what the unit uses or allows control of. Your min/max levels may adjust this "slope" value but when you visually can't see it then its a bit more awkward.

Hope its some help or gives some understanding.

Mmmm!!! Maybe I need to look into Equalizer APO to have more control.

 

[Mr Latte]

Mmmm!!! Maybe I need to look into Equalizer APO to have more control.

IIRC Simvibe may prevent usage of other audio apps whilst running not sure if this will work with it?
It lists as working with multiple channels so might be worth trying to see.

 

[Mr Latte]

@eSEA One

Well did you find much usage or benefit with the units you have?
Im curious how the 250 model fairs in scores you may give it for the 10-130Hz

 

[Mr Latte]

@Dennis Johnson

Here is additional table of your previous given scores. You gave scores per unit based on 0-5 for each individual model with best performance Hz scoring upto 5.

Obviously, these are based on where/how you have them installed on your cockpit and are not direct 1 on 1 competing scores all on the same test bench against each other. Yet they do give some reflection possibly useful for others.

Interesting to see a breakdown:
For each Hz range total, RED is Best / BLUE 2nd and GREY Lowest in group.


LOW MID HIGH
We see how the BK dominate the lowest Hz and how the TST dominate the Mid & High Hz.
Rather surprising though is the ADX score in the 40-80Hz range compared to the BK Gamer.
Also seems you noticed the sensitive spike found on the mini BK based models low end.

Other surprise for me was scoring you gave for the TST 209 & 239 with identical points in some ranges. including both only score of 1 at 40Hz.


Thanks again for this test and the effort you put in was appreciated.
Look forward to you maybe trying SSW for some "tinkering" as have some interesting results with my latest ongoing files and now using 6 channels. May work really well on your config with large unit to exploit for specific enhancement. Not just "Gear Change" but "Acceleration Sensation" & strong "Deceleration Forces" being emphasised on a central mono unit role. These complementing directional effects in "Lateral G" "Suspension Bumps" & "Wheel Slip". Just some things we can't do in Simvibe and for experiencing different tactile immersion/enjoyment possibilities.

 

[Mr Latte]

If I may drop in with two questions.

I'm now running a big LFE kit of the audio and want to go the SimVibe route.
What I would want is the big LFE as engine, gear change, wind and impact. Then ad four smaller transducers for each wheel/suspention.

Q1: What would you recomend mini-LFE or Gamer?
Q2: Is there another brand of trandusers of similar quality that I could look into as ButtKicker is very expensive over here?

Thanks GTV Zeratul.

Edit: All will be mounted on a DIY steel tube rig.

Hi,

Wind effect creates very little bass sensation, won't make much use of the BK LFE low end.

BK LFE will work well for bringing depth and energy for engine effects and some punch for gears, impacts are not that consistent in how they work as often they will produce no response yet oddly sometimes will. Some people use a BK LFE in this role but care will need to be taken not to have
the BK LFE overpower the smaller units which could detract from Stereo Suspension directionality.

Looking my notes and to part correct some past comments I may have made. It appears "Suspension Bump Surges" are not available for EM channels. So I presume you could use "Vertical Surges" and "Vertical Texture" to complement having eventually 4 smaller units producing independent Suspension Bumps.


I personally now prefer SSW over Simvibe but as yet few appear to be trying it to compare for themselves what they are missing in SSW that Simvibe does not do and how each differs with the range of effects and quality they can deliver. For stereo effects and feeling what the car is doing imho SSW is much better.

You could also make better usage of a "Sub" type role for your BK LFE in SSW as you have more control to how it will operate using .wav files created for effects.

 

[GTV Zeratul]

Mr.Latte, sorry for the late responce. Mr. Murphy visited at work and it's been a crazy week.

I assume you didn't exactly answer my question because what I planed isn't exactly possible.

I have had some time to do a little reading and if I understand it correctly SV only supports 4 channels per soundcard, so if I want 5 separate channels I'd need 2 soundcards for SV right?

Next, SSW stand for? And the EM in EM channel?

I'll be quite bussy for the comming 2 months so my replies may again take some time but I will be reading more in the mean time. Thanks for your time and effort.