Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

@blekenbleu went to a lot of bother for exciters, what did he discover from the readings that we could apply?
As Tonto once said (in Mad magazine) "what do you mean, we?"
What I learned was that:
  • Depending on to what they are attached, Thruster frequency response changes significantly
  • That information informs my SimHub ShakeIt settings
    • could that tuning be done more easily?
      • e.g., by sensing tactile effects while manually dialing a tone generator?
        • my attempt using that approach cooked a Thruster
        • inefficient for effects employing wide frequency ranges, e.g. wheel slip
        • particularly when independently changing intensity is also wanted
    • frequency response measurements e.g. by REW chirps are brief
      and do not overheat Thrusters
 
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I almost hate to ask, but
why would you suggest something without experience using it?

FWIW:
  1. Contact accelerometers and vibration meters want frequent recalibration,
    otherwise, their readings are no more authoritative than from other piezo sensors.
    Non-contact instruments cost more nearly US$1000
  2. ALTA's mass can substantially compromise e.g. Thruster measurements.
 
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The NL2 MP View attachment 508603connector does not accept the 4 pole Neutrik connector.

Does anybody know what the connector on the NX3000D/NX1000D/EPQ304 is? Does it accept the 2 pole Neutrik?

I used these and a spool of speaker wire. 10 connectors for $15.

You simply strip the end of the speaker wire and there are places for you to screw the wire down.

To make this a quick connection to my rig, I put 4 pairs of cables together into an 8 Pole connector and receiver on my rig.

In fact I now have 2 x 8 Pole connectors to make connecting to my rig very quick and clean. Running them all individually gets very bulky fast.

BK/TST front and rear and another 4 channels for exciters.

4to1InUse_6839.jpg
 
As Tonto once said (in Mad magazine) "what do you mean, we?"
What I learned was that:
  • Depending on to what they are attached, Thruster frequency response changes significantly
  • That information informs my SimHub ShakeIt settings
    • could that tuning be done more easily?
      • e.g., by sensing tactile effects while manually dialing a tone generator?
        • my attempt using that approach cooked a Thruster
        • inefficient for effects employing wide frequency ranges, e.g. wheel slip
        • particularly when independently changing intensity is also wanted
    • frequency response measurements e.g. by REW chirps are brief
      and do not overheat Thrusters

We can already see from the spec-sheets of exciters that readings will vary, It mentions such and already provides us with an idea of how the unit operates. Or how it could be implemented for certain effects roles or applying an output of specific layers within more advanced effects.

I think you missed the part that this approach you started is not much benefit to others because your readings and your seat will not represent what may happen on their rig/seats. Different positions, different materials, or having other additional tactile also active.

That's my point being made. I assume it's still okay in a discussion thread to query or challenge people on things they share? Especially now that we see others taking the same approach.

So if you are having science fun at home with the experiments then well great but tell me again why then you need to share it. What is the point of letting us know what "you" learned if it does little to help others here? Sorry, I'm baffled by it....

Why also continue to talk in scientific terms about things when most of the people here will not have a clue as to what much of what your saying means. Making reference to many things that really are pointless, sorry I find it irritating but again baffled as to why the point in doing it?

Simhub Tuning

From what I have seen or tried to do, it makes much more sense to monitor the effects and frequencies from the soundcard than from the approach you have shared. This way the installation/placement with the resonance of the materials or from the units attached operation is not going to affect any readings. Also the readings are going to be accurate representing only the frequencies that Simhub is generating.

The difference in this approach is that people will get the same results (minor variation from soundcards) and gives a group of people the ability to work together on effects creation to then better determine how we can improve effects for specific hardware combinations.

When there are various testers giving feedback from their different seat/materials installations then it may become apparent if a GS5 has reverb issues compared to a typical tub seat or something else.

If such is a case, then the issue should be easily identifiable as to the cause and applying the recommended hardware DSP options for people to still enjoy the same effects but fine-tuning the transducers/exciters to suit both their installation and their preferences.

This approach is tried and tested and the work being done with it will benefit many others.....
Yet much testing is still to be done and new effects ideas to be further developed.
 
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Really, i am pretty sure we will not come to a conclusion with this anyway, although i do not really see your point, as in my opinion we have the same goals, but maybe different tools.

As this also seems to have offended you on many occasions, i will spell it out loud and clear again: i am implementing, not inventing: using EQ to mitigate shortcomings of the setup, multi-layer effects using the suggested LFE/TST combo etc., all inspired by or taken from this thread. All hail to the king of tactile!

Quick recap of my approach, after that i will stay quiet on that matter, because i am not here to persuade or much less than that, impress anyone:

1.) Got new shakers in a new setup, noticed considerable dips and peaks in the perceived power -> did not trust my butt alone, wanted to work on the EQ more methodically

2.) Decided to take some of the tools over from what i am doing professionally in the radio-frequency domain and setup a measurement -> cost was 10 bucks for the probes

3.) Validated, that the measurement i took was fairly well correlated to my butt-feel; i have stated that more than once in my posts, ultimately the felt sensation is what really matters for me in the end

4.) EQ'ed the response to my liking to have what i think is a useable shaker setup across frequency for setting up effects, optimizing both performance and ease of use for me

5.) Setup the desired effects in Simhub, one sign that what i did before served my purpose is, that for the same perceived power, i can set basically the same volume in Simhub; makes your life quite easy imo

6.) Race!

(7. Probably in the future i will take this setup, that i trust now to measure the spectra of multiple effects/layers and to judge visually, whether i have any frequency overlap probably also with harmonics/mixing products that you mention for good reason, as the system is nonlinear; separating effects is imo one of the most challenging part of this whole business, we again might agree on that)

FOR ME, 1.)-6.) is a fairly straightforward and reasonable approach from a new setup with unknown performance to fairly well configured Simhub effects, but your opinion may vary.

Cheers!

Maybe if you had asked someone, saying as it appears, you are seeking to copy the recommended hardware approach shared and the spings, they could have just sent you already worked on DSP settings and saved you a lot of time...

Edit:
Though I get it you maybe wanted to play about with things yourself but I do not see the method/approach you followed as an accurate way to tune your seat, especially when you start to add multiple effects or additional units. Monitoring the vibes in the seat in my view is the wrong approach to trying to build or tune effects and the data from each person's attempts at doing that may not correlate with other installations, as too many variables.

So if you create/build effects based on these "readings" and share such or apply a tuned DSP to suit "your seat" with such readings it is not likely to be ideal for other users......

Instead, build the effects to meet with the performance attributes of the used hardware, then let people apply DSP to tune their individual seats (if/as necessary) is in my opinion, and experience a better way to go about it.

Yes, using tools for monitoring the audio for multiple channels from a soundcard will cost more than $10 but it will at least be a more accurate representation of what output in frequencies all the effects are generating.



I am no ones king, yet you said that cos you know it pisses me off right?
 
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I used these and a spool of speaker wire. 10 connectors for $15.

You simply strip the end of the speaker wire and there are places for you to screw the wire down.

To make this a quick connection to my rig, I put 4 pairs of cables together into an 8 Pole connector and receiver on my rig.

In fact I now have 2 x 8 Pole connectors to make connecting to my rig very quick and clean. Running them all individually gets very bulky fast.

BK/TST front and rear and another 4 channels for exciters.

View attachment 508679

Hmmm, I will have to go 8 pole as well. That is much neater.

Thanks. So 2 pole into the Behringers is good.


speaker cable width:
2.5mm2 for BK/TST ?
1.5mm2 for exciters ?
 
Yes 2 Pole into all the different Behringers works fine.

For 8 pole I'm using this with screw on connections for 16-14ga wire.

and this. These do require soldering.

If you want something higher end there is this. It has solder contacts instead of screw on, but handles up to 10ga wire.


I've been running 16ga (1.6mm2) for everything, but you might consider running 14ga (2.0mm) for everything and simply get one big spool of speaker cable.

Having larger ga wire isn't lost on me. I'm running 6ga (~5mm) cables to my electrostatic speakers that have impedances at some frequencies as low as 1.5 ohm with up to 600W going to them. However I know that is overkill. It just looks pretty.
 
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Have you guys looked into crowson transducers? Highly regarded in the home theater community. Seems like they would be close to ideal under a profile rig.


They are $$$$ though :)


One of the units I have yet to experience, I have kept an eye on ebay for 2 years and only once seen one set appear.

They are highly rated for Home Cinema chairs and apparently go down to 1Hz offering smooth transitions. I think the issues are that having 4 of these under a cockpit is not the same as Home Cinema because with Simhub we are generally applying multi-dimensional effects and with the ability to send effects to specific channels. If you attempt to do that through a whole rig frame then the user is not going to get positional sensations so well in the seat/pedals as the vibes will mix within the frame prior to reaching the user's feet/body.

Home Cinema will typically use the .1 LFE channel which is mono even though a person could use 2xCrowsons they both would output the same, just that dual units will fill the seat better. So they do not need to worry about crosstalk issues.

From what I remember these do not have mounting solutions neither as intended to be placed on the floor with the seat on top. So that limits how they could be installed to a rig.
 
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Those Mini DSP options you highlighted are limited in offering only 2 channel inputs
Their multi-channel options get expensive. The HD models have some benefits too I believe.

The Dayton 408 looks ok, you can download the software to try (demo mode) on it and the t.racks.

The t,racks in UK is currently @£80 but to get the Dayton 408 in UK is approx £170
So yes each side of the Atlantic one will be more affordable than the other.

For budget transducer options these are both worth considering.
Most people tend to stick to buying the recommended Behringer NXD series amps. Using their built-in DSP with bigger transducers like BK and TST models.
 
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Yes I am using the NX3000D and the NX1000D for my BK LFEs and TST429.

Would you also recommend the use of Behringer NXDs for the 4 x Dayton Audio DAEC32WP-4 40W exiters?

No, too excessive for 40watts, and its best to keep each channel separated than duplicate channels as this way it does not restrict what effects we send to each unit. Therefore dual NX1000D to power 4x budget exciters, for the benefit of the DSP does not seem sensible compared to buying external DSP solutions.

The beauty is once these DSP units have loaded settings its turn on and forget.
As more buy into it we will see people trying/sharing settings and this will allow users to try some options.

I have one tester who seems to be blowing his exciter units, with multiple failures, yet I have not heard of major issues from others using the same Behringer EPQ 304 amp. We need to be careful with the wattage we give these and I will have to try to discover what his issue has been?

Question:
Apart from the odd failure, have any DAEX32EP-4 Thruster Exciter owners been experiencing issues? I don't have any tactile connection at present but had done 4 months of personal testing with these and am not aware of major reliability issues...
 
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Ok that's why I thought as 2 x NX1000D for the 4 small exiters would be much overkill......

...Hence my question above for the mini DSP to use with the amp connected to the 4 exiters

Do you have any experience with the Dayton Audio DSP-408 DSP or any other mini DSP (beside the t.rack mini DSP) that could be used for the 4 x exiters?

DSP is generally quite expensive when you go into multi-channels.
We had some owners of the Dayton 408, they have similar control/options.

The other alternative is going with a full-blown multi-channel audio interface.
More features, more possibilities but more expensive and more setup/learning curve.
 
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I blew one exciter, I had to get the supplier to replace one for me. It still worked but it didn't sound right so I asked them if they could replace it for me and they did. After this, I was very careful with overdriving them. Even on the small SMSL amp, the 160W that it states it's capable of was way more than what the units need. So manual intervention i.e careful application of the gain/volume knob is required. 2 of those amps or similar Nobsound amps would be more than enough to power 2 sets of exciters. I know you won't get DSP but considering the cheapest Behringer is $500 AUD right now for 2 channels, you're looking at a grande worth of amps and a bucket load of space just to run such small units. I think a software based DSP would be a worthwhile look considering you could have a couple of amps for a few hundred dollars that would easily run these, albeit without the built in DSP function. If I were to drop a grande on amps, I'd grab one and a BK LFE/Concert instead. No way I'd be paying that much only to run 4 tiny exciters. The space required to house the amps is not insignificant either, as you'd know already owning a couple of them.
 
What's your recommendation for a simple setup with good bang for the buck? After going a bit wild on my spending lately I don't feel like going all in on tactile feedback just yet.

I'm thinking maybe one transducer under the seat and something like an SMSL amp. Would this be a good starting point, and if so... what's a good choice for a transducer?
 

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