Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

Their approach is to measure the frequency response of the seat/surfaces and adjust it as required to ensure a good system response. Admittedly, this is not an approach that most will have the skill or the equipment needed to accomplish. But, that doesn't invalidate it as a approach, or topic to discuss. Such efforts can provide valuable insight into what causes certain undesirable behaviors, and what mitigations are effective. Ultimately, this type of study can provide a more general means for establishing what DOES and what does NOT matter in a seat/platform...for utilizing standardized effects. The more amplitude and phase plots we see from various seat types, materials, and installation locations the better.

Correct most people will not be interested in seeking to use such a method.
If you talk to people to get a basis of opinions, they do not care how/what way vibrations move/operate within their seat materials. What they care about is how we create better effects and utilise the available hardware on the market in the best ways to increase not only the quality, fidelity but also the number of effects we can successfully operate from Simhub at any given time.

As for different seats, materials how do we really change or control this, as yet I have not seen examples or tests that highlight results from different seat materials? What feedback can you give people here on the progress of this approach being tested on different seat materials so far?

So let's consider shall we, sidestepping the seat materials, this is before we even take into account, that readings would vary even on the same type of seats based on how/where the tactile may be installed. Then you have again multiple factors like how are the readings affected when we combine firstly more transducers, then different make/models of transducers and how all those combinations vary when we apply different effects to each.

Now you have at least hundreds of potential scenarios that will affect the "data collection" also using a method that in itself is questionable in how professional a tool it is for factors like human error or accuracy?

To date, I have not seen any proof that this approach is in any way valid to improving tactile or improving effects creation. Where are the users on this forum that can share results and findings of this approach and that have been able to use this method to improve the tactile they experience?

Perhaps, first gentlemen, you have to validate that it works before even assuming it is viable and then find or convince people and somehow teach them to use this approach.
Good luck...


Tried & Tested
We can get a much more accurate representation of what the effects are generating in frequencies and dB based on the sound card and using proven industry tools that are accurate. So absolutely not, will the approach you guys are discussing going to achieve the same results. Nor is the approach you take IMHO going to let you help create better effects combinations by taking "readings from within the seat itself" and with the highlighted issues I raised.

As for how frequencies move/travel in the seat, tell me, who cares? Show me people on these forums that have questions regarding " amplitude and phase plots". So yes I refer to such as fancy talk....

Quite simply, can the user feel the effects at a high quality, are the different installed tactile being well represented and operating well together? If so is that not enough?


Comparing Approaches
Firstly, the approach I seek to offer, is at least based on multiple tests over months and years, with many people already showing an interest in using it. As well as some that already are running it and a select few helping behind the scenes who will be part of testing new effects moving forward. What, I can say, is that there are no problems or issues other than dealing with some factors like limited reverb which using the DSP to help reduce or control vibrations seems to be enough.

Yes improving isolation and installation of the seat is important as well as bringing to market a package solution. Yet isn't that another thing that is being worked on, well of course, and with testers using static rigs as well as various motion-based rigs, I sought after owners of such varied rigs for testing purposes.

I have actually had to ignore or turn down people requesting to be included as beta testers,
If people are willing to spend thousands on hardware on the recommendations and approach I have shared here then that is saying something, that people have confidence in it.
 
Last edited:
  • Deleted member 1451080

Deleted
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Interesting!
I am also using these rubber bobbins but I was hopping for a better solution.
What do you mean with these racebase isolators? Are these the one that Mr. Latter is selling in the future?
Yes, I had racebase 'copies' on my pedals but when I switched them out for bobbins I started to get effects come through that were always on but not noticed.

Thats not to say the racebase are bad at all, they are just a lot more optimised for the lfe/tst combo and are not the best solution I found for the much smaller mini's on the pedal tray.

I am using 40mmdiameter x 35mm height on the pedals.
 
I think you misunderstood how Dynamat was used in that application. BK Minis were mounted on undampened side of the plate and plate was bolted at 4 points to the seat, so no direct contact with dampening material I even cut it out around contact area. The Dynamat removed resonance ringing which I could probably eliminate with thicker plate or different material like wood with better natural dampening qualities.
But what I feel worked better with this approach is that the thinner plate still retained flexibility which in my experience and from reading some BK white papers is beneficial for transducers mounting surface, solid steel stamped BK mount that came with RS1 was horrible in that regard with transducers only clanking and making noise without actually rocking anything.

And let me repeat once more, I have not experienced any loss of energy or details with this approach.

View attachment 511268
View attachment 511269
View attachment 511270
View attachment 511271

Yes, I have got yours mixed up with another I have seen/dealt with for pedals, so indeed you are right to highlight yours again.

Let me guess you evaluated this based on felt response alone, you applied it, stuck the seat back together, and were happy enough with the results. So perhaps, you did do not consider or have various measurements taken or do comparison tests to offer a more scientific approach to this issue?

If you are enjoying your tactile and content with what it offers, that's what matters...
 
Last edited:
I think you misunderstood how Dynamat was used in that application. BK Minis were mounted on undampened side of the plate and plate was bolted at 4 points to the seat, so no direct contact with dampening material I even cut it out around contact area. The Dynamat removed resonance ringing which I could probably eliminate with thicker plate or different material like wood with better natural dampening qualities.
But what I feel worked better with this approach is that the thinner plate still retained flexibility which in my experience and from reading some BK white papers is beneficial for transducers mounting surface, solid steel stamped BK mount that came with RS1 was horrible in that regard with transducers only clanking and making noise without actually rocking anything.

And let me repeat once more, I have not experienced any loss of energy or details with this approach.

View attachment 511268
View attachment 511269
View attachment 511270
View attachment 511271
Same for me, I tried to move the system's response more towards critical damping by glueing two 10cm wide strips of Bitumex to the sides of my plates. Btw you want the system to respond with a single pulse-shaped response to a pulse-shaped excitation avoiding ringing and interference, same as you would with general audio.

Both the measured response with Piezo probes and perceived oscillation power was basically the same.
 
Last edited:
I have 4 x mini lfe's on my p1 and they perform as well as they can, of course they have limitations. They do perform a heck of a lot better than they used to when I first had them mounted to the p1x.

I now have two of them directly bolted to the underside of the bucket seat. Isolation is not really needed on the seat for the position they are in. Some may get lost to the rig perhaps but I run them well under what they are capable of because the energy is so close to the body.

the other two I transferred to the pedal tray which is isolated. That absolutely requires isolation to get more out of the minis. It was the racebase isolators that made me try to isolate the pedal tray and make the minis work. It was certainly better than it was before but when I wanted to try the isolators on the seat I had to put in some of those rubber bobbins on the pedal tray. This was the second isolation solution I have tried on the pedals. It was quite a lot better than the racebase. So for the smaller units like the minis the bobbin perform better for me in that scenario.

If you have the lfes mounted direct to the chassis you will find you can make them do a whole lot more for you with a little work.
Good feedback for sure!
They are directly attached to my seat , and they do work pretty well.. Pedals are not isolated though, but i might move that one and rather upgrade to pedal vibrators.

Just ordered a Sigma DK2 4act system, which gets very high reviews on suspension/texture (as SRG claims, up there with the best he has tested), and the guys are working hard on what they claim will be very good rpm vibrations now..

So my transducers will now be re-arranged and programmed as an addition to this system.
Need to get it up and running to get a idea of what direction i’ll go though..

Thanks for youre input guys, ill try to read up on the last months info here :)
 
  • Deleted member 1451080

Deleted
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OK! Good to know with the characteristics of the Racebase/ Mr. Latte ;-)

I have on my P1X some M8 rubber bobbins in 30mm diameter x 20mm height for the seat and the pedal plate. For the heel plate I have M6 in 20mm diameter x 10mm height.

All these works surprisingly not too bad.
At the end for strong transducers I suppose a system analog to the dampers in the cars could be the best, like coil spring and damper (air, hydraulic or elastomer etc....).

I hope some people with enough education and experience on that topic will develop a good system for us in terms of sim racing.
Originally I put those bobbins on the seat and they were awful, there was far too much movement in them, very squishy.

Thats why I swapped them for the racebase copies I had on the pedals. The racebase on the seat is good, there is a bit of movement but it is not worrying me. I was concerned that it had some impact on the feeling of motion but after using them for a little while I am not. They do nothing for the lfe's directly bolted to the seat but it is in preperation for the lfe/tst.

I couldnt stand the bobbins on the seat but you have smaller ones and may have less flex.
 
  • Deleted member 1451080

Deleted
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Deleted member 197115

I have on my P1X some M8 rubber bobbins in 30mm diameter x 20mm height for the seat
I have same isolators on the seat, there is little flex under hard braking but nothing drastic or really noticeable enough to bother.
Someone in isolation thread pointed to 40mm version of these bobbins. Wondering if they will lessen flex enough to bother with replacement, the price is crazy though, $10 for a single unit.
In general with transducers bolted to the seat directly isolation is less critical as seat dampens and absorbs most of the vibration. Perhaps with bigger units this is not the case but for mini-lfes and Auras I haven't noticed drastic changes.
 
  • Deleted member 1451080

Deleted
 
Last edited by a moderator:
When I put the rubber bobbins for the seat, I was a little bit when I saw the flex as I sat in the seat.

...But once I was driving/ racing, I was really enjoying the driving. I suppose I just forgot about the flex on the seat mount and on the the pedal plate and was focusing on the drive And in real life, when you race it is the same, you just drive and your body feels all the inputs, whatever they come from and the body/ brain adjust accordingly.

IMHO, the tactile just adds some "more" immersion - while not being 100% accurate but that's good enough for a PC simulation.

When you want real life car racing feeling, you need anyway to really race a race car (not aa sport car on the racing track)....But that's a very different story (and $)..... But there are enough people wanting to get the feeling of a real race car on a sim rig. Enough people with enough money for that (but not enough to get the real race car etc....).
Yes, it was probably not an issue normally, it was for motion because the seat would move to the side enough to hit the frame at times which was very offputting :) My seat it close to parts of the frame but yes, thats peculiar to my rig.
 
  • Deleted member 197115

Well, I don't know how much the Racebass from Mr. Latte will cost as he has a partnership with Simtag pedals but Simtag is usually extremely expensive......

I wish it could work as drop in bobbin replacement but with overall height of 2.5" it's just a no go for my setup.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It was quite a lot better than the racebase. So for the smaller units like the minis the bobbin perform better for me in that scenario.
I have those "copies" on the seat and pedals and have to say the seat-side improved a lot over the "bobbins" while the pedals have not to the same degree. My explanation would be, that on the pedals you do not have 100kg of wobbly/lossy mass on top (seat and driver) absorbing the energy. It is likely reflected multiple times and bleeds into the main frame as very little is absorbed in the metal pedal assembly.

I have not yet figured out how to create a wave trap to absorb the energy, so it does not get reflected back into the rig so much.

But to put it back into perspective, for me the spring/rubber solution improved isolation a lot and the flex is not more than i had with the bobbins...a non-issue for me.
 
Last edited:
On the previous page you can see what I did to drop them in low on my 8020 rig., an easier option than what I did would be to put a couple of 4040 rails inside the sides instead of on top, have them running sideways mounted on with brackets. then put them as low in the rig as you need.
 
  • Deleted member 1451080

Deleted
 
Last edited by a moderator:
yes that could be an option to fit this type of isolators indeed
BTW, I have the feeling looking at these picture that you have a motion system, right? If yes, which system isst it? SFX/ Arduino?

Not sure where I can find these plates (definitely not to be 3D printed )....

...and I can remember having read somewhere where this kind of isolator (spring + rubber) is available however ...I have too echelon again if I can find it

Yes, its based on the SFX plans but I dont have a 3d printer so I made the parts on a mill and lathe from aluminium I had around, and some spare acetal.. I did have to buy some acetal rod to make the sliders.

check your pm
 
  • Deleted member 1451080

Deleted
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Latest News

Back
Top