Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[ltnordb]

What's your recommendation for a simple setup with good bang for the buck? After going a bit wild on my spending lately I don't feel like going all in on tactile feedback just yet.

I'm thinking maybe one transducer under the seat and something like an SMSL amp. Would this be a good starting point, and if so... what's a good choice for a transducer?

Dayton bst-1 and a cheap class D amp like Fosi or Nobsound off of amazon would be my rec. Use a spare audio out from your pc or monitor and you can be up and running for under 100$

 

[blekenbleu]

What's your recommendation for a simple setup with good bang for the buck?

4 Dayton pucks in a seat cushion. If not a fan of DIY, SRS ShakeSeat.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

What's your recommendation for a simple setup with good bang for the buck? After going a bit wild on my spending lately I don't feel like going all in on tactile feedback just yet.

I'm thinking maybe one transducer under the seat and something like an SMSL amp. Would this be a good starting point, and if so... what's a good choice for a transducer?

SMSL and two Aurasounds under the seat will make very good starter setup. Non piston transducers are much easier to tune too.
If bolted directly to the seat you can even skip isolators, they still help a bit if you are fine with some flex in seat mounts.

 

[Alexi Törnqvist]

Dayton bst-1 and a cheap class D amp like Fosi or Nobsound off of amazon would be my rec. Use a spare audio out from your pc or monitor and you can be up and running for under 100$

How do these different transducers stack up - Dayton vs. Aura vs Reckhorn and so on?

Do the Fosi's or Nobsound's have more powerful versions with more channels? Single 100W channel seems hard to expand upon without getting more amps.

4 Dayton pucks in a seat cushion. If not a fan of DIY, SRS ShakeSeat.

Looks like it would add more height to the cushioning, which unfortunately is a deal breaker for me.

SMSL and two Aurasounds under the seat will make very good starter setup. Non piston transducers are much easier to tune too.
If bolted directly to the seat you can even skip isolators, they still help a bit if you are fine with some flex in seat mounts.

I didn't even know there are different types of transducers... So, I take it the non piston types have a more even frequency response? Are there advantages to getting two transducers instead of one larger?

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Are there advantages to getting two transducers instead of one larger?

You can start with one too, not ideal as all effects will be mixing in one channel but works. But then you're probably looking at BK piston type transducers that require stronger amp and some extra tuning to avoid offensive and inefficient FQ ranges.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

I am not an expert on this or a qualified engineer...
To be fair to some others we have here, that appear to be experts in advice on this topic. Yet they do not base what they offer, on physical tests. Nor do they elaborate on how/why their advice will operate with the wide range of frequencies that Simhub may generate and which is also very dependent on the level of hardware being used with it.

To avoid polluting, RCHeliguy's thread....I'm replying here.

I and a few others here are qualified engineers. I don't know how their own careers have progressed, but I've been one for nearly 30 years in several different fields and industries. We study wave propagation (mechanical, electrical, electro-magnetic) in materials throughout our college education. In a very real sense, it is fundamentally what we do...manipulate those waves in one way or several for the purposes of energy management, sensory measurement, and communications.

I spent many years of my early career developing methods for determining fluid properties (speed of sound, density, viscosity, etc), by stimulating and measuring the vibrational response of fluids passing through metal tubes. Such methods, and systems involve every aspect of what gets discussed here, from coil/magnet electromechanical drivers / pickups, to resonance, to damping, digital signal processing, non-linear response, etc....only in excruciating mathematical detail that required me to have a Partial Differential Equations textbook open on my desk at all times.

Today I'm a chief engineer at an aerospace company leading design teams in creating, modifying, and building aircraft and structures and sensory systems. I spend my days (and nights, and many weekends) discussing and debating structural and aero dynamics with my teams and their impacts of design decisions on the strength and fatigue life of airframes.

Every product I have ever designed uses the properties of wave propagation in one or several ways. Every single day is a lesson in dynamics for engineers. Every product I've ever designed, every circuit I've ever implemented, every line of DSP code I've every written, and every control system I've ever designed has taught me something about waves and dynamic systems.

I come here every now and again, and try to provide some advice based on my knowledge and experience of these and similar systems; and, every once in a while correct a basic misunderstanding of physics. Its an interesting topic, and one that is adjacent to my career. You are apparently an excellent experimentalist. So much so, that within the context of this forum is has been difficult to discern your actual background (trained, experienced engineer, or not)---so, I'm never sure what terms to use and how much detail to use when explaining something.

There's nothing magic about these frequencies, a there's nothing special about the range of operation. To be honest, what you call a "wide range" I would call narrow. 2-200 Hz (at best) is only 2 orders of magnitude. From an engineering point of view things don't really get interesting or challenging until we are talking at least 3-orders, and generally 4-6.

I do not have the time or energy to exchange walls of text with you to explain the physics and mathematics behind the few bits of advice that I occasionally offer (This being an obvious exception, for a wall of text). I certainly don't have the time to go and conduct experiments for you to demonstrate that I understand structural dynamics. If I'm going to bother to post here, I'm more interested in providing helpful information, not arguing with you about the fundamentals of vibration. You're free to listen, or not---as are others. You tend to get defensive when contradicted, and go on some kind of attack---for what reason I don't know....it gets borderline insulting, at times. To date, I've refrained from responding, in kind. Rather, I simply disengage....again, this being an exception.

 

[Mr Latte]

Thanks you for your input, sorry if you get offended. The point is, flooding people with science-based terms they do not understand does not do much for others here. Already people find it difficult trying to keep up with some of my own posts or methods in how we use DSP or combine different tactile units.

I will share and base my findings on the tests and experiences with tactile I have had, that's my point, often those offering science-based input or recommendations do not tend to back them up with proven/tested results. Some of you making claims have not even experienced/owned all the types of transducers we often discuss here. So yes I can get defensive and annoyed by that. I am not perfect, my passion in this area is greater than most so take that into your considerations if I come across at times as hot-headed.

I certainly am not convinced it's possible for someone to determine by calculation how potentially multi-tier tactile installations, using multiple effects, containing multiple layers of frequencies, on different installations and seats with different materials will transfer or behave. Nor quite understand how a BK/TST/EXC installation would feel, especially if they have no personal experience of using those.

What people want are solutions that are tried and tested by the applications we use.

You are welcome to share your own solutions and what have you offered to the forums regards improving tactile, based on the knowledge you have? Please by all means start a new thread of your own and I will not interrupt or post on it.

I have also said in the past and again you are invited to take my recommendations and highlight where they are incorrect or performing badly. I have no problem being corrected sir. Yet I am confident in the potential with the methods I use or recommend.

I have offered people with my own experimentations, a way to utilize BK/TST/EXC and applying improved isolation options. I will claim, this can provide a tactile immersion better than any solution, currently on the market. Yes, it still requires having good effects and that too, I seek to push new possibilities.

Now, who else here or on other forums is seeking to push tactile immersion as much?
So with respect, question or challenge what I do or offer if you want. Just as I am entitled to question or challenge others.

In reference to "Wide range" term being used. Well, it is wide compared to the @50Hz range that most common/entry-level transducers people use. This has been highlighted many times. Also, subwoofer crossovers will limit bass to 200Hz and at best 250Hz being the upper limits of bass.

 

[metalnwood]

Having put my pedals on isolation a little while ago I decided to do that to the seat as well.

This was mainly because I bought a tst239 and an LFE to go on to the seat. Like a couple of others my seat was mounted very low and I liked it like that. Even if I wanted to raise it I would then have knock on effects of having to move up my wheel deck in to a position where some other things are which I would have needed to move somewhere else as well.

So I had to come up with a way to keep my seat as low as I could manage but still be easy enough to deal with the tactile that would be under it.

I have a P1 modified to suit my seat position so it was not on top of rails that sat on top of the 160 profile. Instead the seat was inside of the 160 profile and the bottom of the seat at the same height as the bottom of the side profiles.

Even if you dont go as low as I do many may not want to stack high isolators on to the existing height.

I had a couple ideas but ran with this in the end. I made some plates to hold the isolators, the seat on top of them of course. Each plate has a slot for the isolator bolt to fit through. Some may be happy with just bolting these plates under the side using as I did three bolts and tnuts each. As I started at this height I needed to go lower. So I am using 4040 as spacing to get lower. Each spacer has 3 8mm holes drilled through the center of the slot so a 65mm bolt goes through the 10mm plate, then the spacer and finally in to a tnut underneath the side profile. I did put an additional bracket on the rear ones but dont really think they are required.

This takes a little more work than just spanning some 4040 all the way across underneath but it means that I am not constrained in how I mount the tactile because there is completely open space below the seat. No spans of 4040 that I have to avoid.

With the isolators adding 65mm height, my seat heigt did go up about 20mm but that is fine.

With the seat inside the frame you really dont have much access to nuts and bolts to secure the seat to isolators from the top but this arrangement with the slots allows me to easily drop the seat complete with isolators already installed to the seat mounts, then in to the slots and then only do up four nuts underneath. With the help of my son to guide me, it only took 30 seconds to lower the seat on to the plates.

You can undo the boltes under the plates to slide the seat forward and back but this is really for final adjustment, you wouldnt do it to change position for people on a regular basis. As I have the SFX I can raise the rig up 100mm to get access under if I needed to.

Now, the only thing left is wait for UPS to deliver the goods.. Stuck on the tracker not moving for six days now!!

@RCHeliguy you are not the only one finding dust under things

 

[Callsign BH]

Great to see so many folks here making significant progress, and interest in tactile on the whole continuing to grow. I've been away for months (probably the 8-9 toughest months of my life, for personal reasons), but I am back and trying to catch up now.

Great to see Mr Latte has a Race Bass proto out in the wild! I remember planning to beta test that with him, when the planning was in it's early phases, but guess it's best I wasn't able to execute on that -- given I have been away for months and wouldn't have been much use by way of providing feedback Looks really great man, and will continue to follow along with the progress!

Sadly, my NX3000D, 2x BK-CT's, Soundblaster X3, and all the cables are still sitting in my man cave in the boxes they came in. Once I have time to catch up on the thread though, hoping to get to work!

 

[OlaGB]

This topic is absolutely very interesting, and i’m sure most of the 234 pages are educational
But as much as i like diving deep into things, i dont have time to read all the pages..

Is there somwhere in the thread, a short summary/advice of how a ok/good tactile system would look like today?

 

[Deleted member 1451080]

Deleted

 

[OlaGB]

I think it really depends on your budget (and also the type rig that you are using)
And you can also start a new thread with your specific needs etc…if necessary.

Ofcourse, but i guess this thread isnt so much about low cost systems, as far as i’ve seen.

On my SimlP1x, i run 2 nuke 1000 amps (not dsp), on 4 mini lfe’s today, and even though i’m adding a good motion system (which is known for good texture/rumble) in the near future, i do plan to keep the transducer system as well.
Not that keen to add more amps, but changing to other transducers for better range is one of the important thing to consider i guess?

 

[Ruttman98]

Ofcourse, but i guess this thread isnt so much about low cost systems, as far as i’ve seen.

On my SimlP1x, i run 2 nuke 1000 amps (not dsp), on 4 mini lfe’s today, and even though i’m adding a good motion system (which is known for good texture/rumble) in the near future, i do plan to keep the transducer system as well.
Not that keen to add more amps, but changing to other transducers for better range is one of the important thing to consider i guess?

There are many basic recommendations which have been advanced in these pages. Most have highlighted the relative power and range limitations of Mini LFEs (I am in the same boat as you with two units) versus the BK Advance and Concert. Digital Sound Processing (DSP)--whether incorporated into an amplifier or applies via software ia also extremely important for tuning and control. Whichever direction one chooses to go, isolation is key to tactile efficient and proper felt sensations.

If you do not have opportunity to explore the thread in depth, I would suggest careful reading of the past 3 months of posts. Several new initiatives including the introduction of RaceBass with specialzed isolators and the in use rise of various Dayton TST units are of note.

 

[Deleted member 1451080]

Deleted

 

[Tom_Hampton]

Thanks you for your input, sorry if you get offended. The point is, flooding people with science-based terms they do not understand does not do much for others here. Already people find it difficult trying to keep up with some of my own posts or methods in how we use DSP or combine different tactile units.

Offended is a strong word. Frankly, the "science based" terms used by me were mostly directed to you, based on my assumption that those terms were understood by you. But, you are the only one who complained about their usage---calling them "sciency" and "fancy".

What's somewhat interesting is that the methods that you rebel against by Blekenbleu, MetalnWood, Andrew_WOT and a few others are really just alternate approaches to your own that ultimately can achieve the same thing. You're approach is to "standardize the vibration platform". Use the same seat, use the same material, use the same isolation methods, use the same transducers, mounting locations, etc. That's fine...it works, and eliminates a lot of variables.

Their approach is to measure the frequency response of the seat/surfaces and adjust it as required to ensure a good system response. Admittedly, this is not an approach that most will have the skill or the equipment needed to accomplish. But, that doesn't invalidate it as a approach, or topic to discuss. Such efforts can provide valuable insight into what causes certain undesirable behaviors, and what mitigations are effective. Ultimately, this type of study can provide a more general means for establishing what DOES and what does NOT matter in a seat/platform...for utilizing standardized effects. The more amplitude and phase plots we see from various seat types, materials, and installation locations the better.

The fact is that both approaches achieve the same end game: a predictable system response to a driven signal, so that you can focus on simhub effects at the soundcard output, and have some confidence in how the seat / platform will respond. When a seat's response is linear, and predictable across the spectrum of interest...at worst the only thing required to adapt effects between seats is then compensating for attenuation.

No one needs to "start a new thread"---certainly not just because "you said so". This thread has LONG since lost any sense of focus on any one specific topic...it meanders all over the place. At best its generically tactile, but in the last 4-ish years, and nearly 250 pages of posts its covered every subject under the sun and has just become a dumping ground for something that doesn't have a specific home, or maybe doesn't obviously warrant its own thread. Someone choosing to post in this thread doesn't give you some "right of ownership" to eschew anything you don't see the value in. Futher the "authorization" step required for new threads here at RD, discourages new threads and encourages the reuse of existing threads when possible.

 

[Callsign BH]

As I've continued reading through the thread to "catch up" from my months away....wanted to extend a huge congratulations to @Mr Latte for the deal with Simtag! That is incredible news, and very well deserved.

Sounds like I'll need to continue waiting to install these 2x BK-CT's, until the final product is released.

 

[Deleted member 1451080]

Deleted

 

[metalnwood]

Ofcourse, but i guess this thread isnt so much about low cost systems, as far as i’ve seen.

On my SimlP1x, i run 2 nuke 1000 amps (not dsp), on 4 mini lfe’s today, and even though i’m adding a good motion system (which is known for good texture/rumble) in the near future, i do plan to keep the transducer system as well.
Not that keen to add more amps, but changing to other transducers for better range is one of the important thing to consider i guess?

I have 4 x mini lfe's on my p1 and they perform as well as they can, of course they have limitations. They do perform a heck of a lot better than they used to when I first had them mounted to the p1x.

I now have two of them directly bolted to the underside of the bucket seat. Isolation is not really needed on the seat for the position they are in. Some may get lost to the rig perhaps but I run them well under what they are capable of because the energy is so close to the body.

the other two I transferred to the pedal tray which is isolated. That absolutely requires isolation to get more out of the minis. It was the racebase isolators that made me try to isolate the pedal tray and make the minis work. It was certainly better than it was before but when I wanted to try the isolators on the seat I had to put in some of those rubber bobbins on the pedal tray. This was the second isolation solution I have tried on the pedals. It was quite a lot better than the racebase. So for the smaller units like the minis the bobbin perform better for me in that scenario.

If you have the lfes mounted direct to the chassis you will find you can make them do a whole lot more for you with a little work.

 

[Mr Latte]

What's somewhat interesting is that the methods that you rebel against by Blekenbleu, MetalnWood, Andrew_WOT and a few others are really just alternate approaches to your own that ultimately can achieve the same thing. You're approach is to "standardize the vibration platform". Use the same seat, use the same material, use the same isolation methods, use the same transducers, mounting locations, etc. That's fine...it works, and eliminates a lot of variables.

So, a recent example regards reverberations, Andrew places the tactile unit on top of the dampening material, therefore its output has to go through the dampening before passing into the plate. That is not a recommended method as why restrict the tactile before it even enters the plate? The dampening materials could of been placed to the outer edges to help prevent possible ringing.

How does what Blakenbleu, Andrew Wot, MetalnWood alternative approaches achieve the same thing?

You are incorrect in your assessment, as you will not find anywhere I have stated that the "same seat" or "same material" is required for solutions I have been working on. I already have beta testers for the RaceBass BK/TST/EXC specifications, starting to offer feedback and tests that own GS5, general tub seats and carbon-based seats.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

So, a recent example regards reverberations, Andrew places the tactile unit on top of the dampening material, therefore its output has to go through the dampening before passing into the plate. That is not a recommended method as why restrict the tactile before it even enters the plate? The dampening materials could of been placed to the outer edges to help prevent possible ringing.

I think you misunderstood how Dynamat was used in that application. BK Minis were mounted on undampened side of the plate and plate was bolted at 4 points to the seat, so no direct contact with dampening material I even cut it out around contact area. The Dynamat removed resonance ringing which I could probably eliminate with thicker plate or different material like wood with better natural dampening qualities.
But what I feel worked better with this approach is that the thinner plate still retained flexibility which in my experience and from reading some BK white papers is beneficial for transducers mounting surface, solid steel stamped BK mount that came with RS1 was horrible in that regard with transducers only clanking and making noise without actually rocking anything.

And let me repeat once more, I have not experienced any loss of energy or details with this approach.