Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

I have both cantilevered, prefer dampened response from suspended mount more than direct one, it also tames down some knocking. But Road Impact and Road Rumble especially curbs in ACC really shine with Mini-LFE at 25hz.

Not even close lad....

With ACC we can have RR / RV / IMP / G-FORCE all active from different curbs/bumps.

These individual effects can each be given their own felt character and also tuned to operate differently with the telemetry for key roles. So when activated and combined the generated output is much more than what can be achieved with traditional or common approaches.

It's learning how we use each and then what sensations we find suit each, to then create a mini-orchestra bringing all the elements together.

Those first two 2 corners from Monza you highlighted......

Sausage curbs = floaty rebound
Saw curbs = machine gun rapid fire

Painting a scene:
I want the positional wheel vibes, but also a real rawness and deep power, with something relating to reverb from wheel arches/suspension and within the chassis too.

For me, it has to feel very full, edgy but diverse with lots of body, not just a smack or using only a limited range of frequencies.

Still work to be done but......
I've been told with (beta-effects) development in ACC, we have reached more enjoyable/immersive/detailed bumps and curbs than D-Box or SFX.

Then again preferences and opinions vary....

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Wish I understood half what you wrote. What beta-effects?
Can you may be provide some more practical layman advise instead of wall of vague text. I am always open to suggestions if they are easy to understand and implement.
What I use might not be perfect, but it works for me, why is it "not even close", in whose view?

 

[cnhoff]

So from your findings so far, what do you think the performance would be like if we combined a large BK with a TST and then tuned each with their own crossover curves and PEQ to reduce peaks and to help boost the lows?

Well i am not 100% sure where you are heading because I thought that is exactly what i described in my post, but i think in my setup, the combination of a LFE and TST329 can do the following:

- LFE offers very good and even performance from 10 Hz to 45 Hz, with a usable performance but strength drop-off in the really lows at 5-10Hz despite pushing those and usable performance in the 45-55 Hz range
- the TST329 has been tuned, so it can be used from 40-180Hz with best and even performance
- the transition region between 40-50Hz on my setup is tuned to produce very similar output on both devices, so i can chose between both in that area, albeit i am currently letting the TST do the work there

So the answer would be, that in my opinion this combo can be used as a system from 5-180Hz with little drawbacks to produce single or multi-device effects. Power-wise there is lots of headroom at least for my taste, e.g. i did not have to push the 100Hz range on the TST by 20dB, i reduced the peak at 60-80Hz considerable and only reasonably boosted the 100Hz range to come to a flat response without being close to compression on any frequency. I am barely driving my 1000D and 3000D at 1/3 to 1/2 of its output power actually.

What i noticed though playing with your RPM effects, it is quite hard for me to feel the range above 150Hz in the presence of lower freqs. There is plenty of power and headroom, so i could turn up the volume more, but i do not feel so much benefit. Probably those would be more impressive on close-to-the-body devices like those exciters on the back of the seat you are promoting. Plus i can easily hear 175Hz even with my headset on.

 

[metalnwood]

Still work to be done but......
I've been told with (beta-effects) development in ACC, we have reached more enjoyable/immersive/detailed bumps and curbs than D-Box or SFX.

Prob dont need to say that this is just subjective as I doubt very much that the tactile is going to feel the same as cars that heavily use and launch of kerbs and the movement that can be provided by actuators.

 

[Deleted member 1451080]

Deleted

 

[cnhoff]

Wish I understood half what you wrote. What beta-effects?
Can you may be provide some more practical layman advise instead of wall of vague text. I am always open to suggestions if they are easy to understand and implement.
What I use might not be perfect, but it works for me, why is it "not even close", in whose view?

I guess once you have a good setup the magic is really in the effects creation, similar to having a good piano vs. using it and playing excellent music on it.

But I understand and agree to what you mean Andrew, for me diving into effects that much would probably mean having to quit my day job and abandon my kids

 

[cnhoff]

Do you mean by tuning, tuning in the DSP?

Sure, as I tried to do and showed in the graphs. The goal was for the LFE and TST to perform as well and uniform as possible on their own and ultimately to be able to act as a single unit with wider bandwidth.

 

[Mr Latte]

Prob dont need to say that this is just subjective as I doubt very much that the tactile is going to feel the same as cars that heavily use and launch of kerbs and the movement that can be provided by actuators.

Well, It's not just about the power, as motion can generate too much, that depending on the user may become annoying or uncomfortable. I refer here to the enjoyment and detail or character in feel we can now generate with Simhub.

You were given an approach that listed multiple effects for a combined sensation via the highest performance tactile we can apply to a rig. Now can you show me, other people's effects profiles that are applying that approach with multi-layer effects and have these effects then specifically distributed over a seat to large BK/TST and exciters units?

The feedback has been from SFX and DBOX owners/installers and including people with advanced track experience as well as actual racing drivers.

Development of effects will continue, improvements will come but it's clear the approach being used, we are onto something here.

 

[metalnwood]

Well, It's not just about the power, as motion can generate too much, that depending on the user may become annoying or uncomfortable. I refer here to the enjoyment and detail or character in feel we can now generate with Simhub.

Thats all I said, it will depend on the user, subjective so a list of some peoples results are not so important. YMMV etc.

As far as rumble strips etc I wouldnt be without it on tactile. I like it better on tactile than I do on the transducers because it is more immersive. But a big kerb still can give you a lot of motion, combined they are the best.

One thing I can say, the kerbs are all pretty much canned effects with tactile, while they are impressive with tactile running over them they dont convey the difference that the actuators are able to based on the real road surface.

If you are able to with your secret sauce, thats great but not applicable to anyone else that doesnt have the knowledge.

 

[cnhoff]

Thats all I said, it will depend on the user, subjective so a list of some peoples results are not so important. YMMV etc.

As far as rumble strips etc I wouldnt be without it on tactile. I like it better on tactile than I do on the transducers because it is more immersive. But a big kerb still can give you a lot of motion, combined they are the best.

One thing I can say, the kerbs are all pretty much canned effects with tactile, while they are impressive with tactile running over them they dont convey the difference that the actuators are able to based on the real road surface.

If you are able to with your secret sauce, thats great but not applicable to anyone else that doesnt have the knowledge.

Where do you get the SFX100 effects/curves/configurations from? Please excuse my ignorance, but there must be the same inherent task for someone to map what the game gives you to an effect, be it tactile or motion.

 

[metalnwood]

@cnhoff Talking generally, SFX, PT actuator, that style of motion you have various programs you can use to control the motion.

Simfeedback, SRS motion, simtools, flypt are options to control them all. Like simhub, they will get values from the sim, rpm, accel/deccel in all axis, etc, etc.

Some of the software is simpler than others, e.g. SRS could be likened more towards simvibe with most effects already in there and you move sliders. simtools/flypt could be looked at more like simhub with many options to apply the raw data to the output of the motion. Simfeedback somewhere in the middle.

So you could map something like heave to vertical acceleration or position. Something simple like that would have you feel change in road surface as well as feeling of kerbs just because your wheel/car is going up and down over them.

You could add canned effects as well, e.g. generate a frequency based response of the actuators when going over a kerb, etc. You could take engine rpm and translate that to back and forward rolling motion, .e.g when stopped and the engine is warbling away.

Pretty much any game value can be turned in to some motion you want if you can think of it.

 

[cnhoff]

@cnhoff Talking generally, SFX, PT actuator, that style of motion you have various programs you can use to control the motion.

Simfeedback, SRS motion, simtools, flypt are options to control them all. Like simhub, they will get values from the sim, rpm, accel/deccel in all axis, etc, etc.

Some of the software is simpler than others, e.g. SRS could be likened more towards simvibe with most effects already in there and you move sliders. simtools/flypt could be looked at more like simhub with many options to apply the raw data to the output of the motion. Simfeedback somewhere in the middle.

So you could map something like heave to vertical acceleration or position. Something simple like that would have you feel change in road surface as well as feeling of kerbs just because your wheel/car is going up and down over them.

You could add canned effects as well, e.g. generate a frequency based response of the actuators when going over a kerb, etc. You could take engine rpm and translate that to back and forward rolling motion, .e.g when stopped and the engine is warbling away.

Pretty much any game value can be turned in to some motion you want if you can think of it.

Thank you, sir.

 

[Mr Latte]

Sure, as I tried to do and showed in the graphs. The goal was for the LFE and TST to perform as good and uniform as possible on their own and ultimately to be able to act as a single unit with wider bandwidth.

So in 2012, I termed this "Dual Role" when we applied these units to generate a performance that no single unit can achieve. The large BK with TST 429 is the best combination in performance I have discovered.

More recently in 2019 I shared on these forums, how the exciters can bring another dimension and allow us to use them for different scenarios but with the benefit of also targeting specific body regions.


Large BK
What if we applied a crossover curve and we boosted under 20Hz by +10dB with a controlled drop, per octave that still boosted upto the 50Hz range. We then do not rely much on the BK after this even though it will still output with lowering dB.....
.
We can also apply a PEQ at the 20Hz ish range to help reduce pang with this excessive curve and add some boost to that 50-80Hz range for users that want to increase the range of the unit's operation. Some may want to keep it limited more to around the 50Hz like you said.

TST Models
With TST we can have it come in, to also be quite strong in the 40Hz range, and as you have discovered it is overbearing in that @60-80Hz range. I found this can cause unwanted reverberations in certain seats. So we can apply a nice curve for this unit to operate well beyond 100Hz and using PEQ to set a boost for the higher Hz to squeeze a bit more from them while controlling that peak.

With the higher-end 329 and 429 models, you get better low-end and in general more energy detail throughout when compared to the T209 and 239 models. Yet in fairness, a large BK/209 combo is still friggin awesome. The TST 429 can perform really well down to about 20Hz.

In building, certain effects, we can have low-mid layers that can be applied to multiple units (BK/TST) to achieve a greater output if this is desired for this layer's role? So we can get not just each unit being tuned by DSP but multiple units operational at once for a more enjoyable immersion. We can also apply this approach to the exciters or have certain effect layers outputting on a BK/TST/EXC and this is a huge step beyond the traditional approach or what most people with tactile experience.

 

[Mr Latte]

I guess once you have a good setup the magic is really in the effects creation, similar to having a good piano vs. using it and playing excellent music on it.

But I understand and agree to what you mean Andrew, for me diving into effects that much would probably mean having to quit my day job and abandon my kids

Yes I have thousands of hours into effects faffing about......
Still discovering things....

This is why the intention with RACEBASS is to bring a solution that can be purchased, just like a motion system but when installed, it already has high quality effects developed for it.

 

[Mr Latte]

Thats all I said, it will depend on the user, subjective so a list of some peoples results are not so important. YMMV etc.

As far as rumble strips etc I wouldnt be without it on tactile. I like it better on tactile than I do on the transducers because it is more immersive. But a big kerb still can give you a lot of motion, combined they are the best.

One thing I can say, the kerbs are all pretty much canned effects with tactile, while they are impressive with tactile running over them they dont convey the difference that the actuators are able to based on the real road surface.

If you are able to with your secret sauce, thats great but not applicable to anyone else that doesnt have the knowledge.

Ahh now you're being subjective, no?

Here is the difference, you have not experienced the effects that I talk of, you base your tactile/motion opinions on what you have owned or tried and then how you had those configured or what settings in effects you then applied.

I have expressed the opinions of some others, that have tried the effects I am developing, on the hardware that is recommended and the effects themselves are developed to be used with. So in their "opinions" based on the experiences they have had with other tactile solutions including motion, are impressed with the results.

If you want to play that down, thats okay...
I find it very encouraging.

Please also take note, this is not a tactile Vs motion thing. I have been trying to arrange several beta testers that over the next few months will be helping with effects. They own various motion rigs, GS5, belt tensioners, lots of nice toys.

To use steering wheels as an example.
They don't want to be stuck with a Logitech level of tactile, they want a tactile performance like a high-end DD wheel offers. Also, something that can be a tool to improve their driving or be a seat of the pants additional thrill.

 

[metalnwood]

What do you mean I am being subjective as if I changed my tune? Of course I am, that was my point. It's subjective.

You understand that subjective is someones own feeling and personal preference. You do understand given you said it yourself that not everyone will like the same thing in the same way?

I am not playing down your stuff and conversely I dont know what other people are doing with their motion, what they have, what software they use and if they have spent much time getting it the best it can be.

One thing I know, I have spent far more time in motion than you.

 

[Mr Latte]

One thing I know, I have spent far more time in motion than you.

I would agree with that, however.
I did not place focus on "my opinions" for motion-based tactile sensations, it's not part of the discussion.

What was expressed were the "opinions of several others" giving their feedback?
This included racing professionals and others well accustomed to popular tactile and motion solutions currently on the market.

"One thing I can say, the kerbs are all pretty much canned effects with tactile, while they are impressive with tactile running over them they dont convey the difference that the actuators are able to based on the real road surface."

To say with tactile the effects are "canned", that is your opinion based on whatever you have used for tactile to compare it to motion. Tactile is not going to move the person, but that's not to say curbs cannot have a wide varation in feel, based on the sims physics and telemetry thats being applied to the various effects and those effects each having their own sensations. Here lies the difference, most people use very simple tactile effects for representing things like "curbs" so yes that will feel "canned".

Do you want to show or share your curb effects settings?

Some want the best tactile, not interested in motion, some want motion over tactile, some want the best of what we can do with both.

 

[metalnwood]

I am using basic kerb effects for the ripple strips and I am quite satisfied with how it feels. As I say, I let the tactile do that part for me. At the same time the motion gives the jolt if the kerb happens to be a sausage and I get much more of a feeling what the car is actually doing.

Not everyone will like that, some may as you say, prefer to have tactile do all of that and forgo the heavy movements. It certainly makes the racing somewhat easier.

Not everything I say is supposed to be a blight on what you are doing. I know more than one person that doesnt actually like the tactile ripple strip over ones that happen in motion. I can be stopped on the side of the road on an evil ripple strip and slowly move across it and feel the bounce bounce bounce as the wheels go over it and the next kerb may feel different because it is different and if that is modeled in the track then it can come through. The motion of the car is changing where I am on the ripple strip.

When I refer to canned for the ripple strips, I am really saying that what I just described was based on the car moving over a 3d modelled part of the track. I know you can get great effects with tactile for kerbs but are you feeling what is there or are you feeling a representation of 'a kerb' how it might be at different speeds etc. An example, two kerbs near each other, different kinds of kerbs that you will take at basically the same speed. Could feel quite different and unique with motion, will they with tactile?

I will go for the tactile but how can I argue with one of my friends who flat out likes the motion portraying the modelling of the kerb on the track?

There are many thing we could argue about but I didn't expect blowback by saying that subjectively people are going to feel different about your friends opinions. It might not have been your opinion but you shared them, no pointtaking exception over other peoples opinions that might not line up with your friends.

 

[Deleted member 1451080]

Deleted

 

[blekenbleu]

The goal was for the LFE and TST to perform as well and uniform as possible on their own
and ultimately to be able to act as a single unit with wider bandwidth.

Once both transducers magnitude responses are nominally equalized,
a next step is managing phase responses in the crossover region.
If crossover response rolloffs are too shallow,
then combined response is liable to multiple cancellation and reinforcement nodes.
Supposing some flexibility in a crossover frequency
at which transducer output magnitudes are equal,
it is generally best for that frequency to be in the middle of an octave
where both transducers show relatively small phase changes.
Evaluate phase responses using an X-Y oscilloscope display,
with paired piezo outputs from transducers to either input axis.
Matching phase responses yield lines at 45 degrees.

Beyond transducers' inherent responses,
phase relationships in the crossover region depend on filters being applied, e.g. FIR vs IIR.

One should start by verifying matching piezo pair phase responses in the crossover octave,
by x-y display of both attached to one transducer.