Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

SimHub default profile comes with pretty much all effects set at 44hz.
What would be really helpful for simple guys not looking to invest countless hours into tuning is some kind of spreadsheet with recommended settings of each effect for different types of transducers based on their known operating range.
And (a man can dream, right) if SimHub devs incorporated that into app where you can choose type of transducer for effect with automatically populated baseline recommended values, would have been ideal.

Andrew, the first problem you have is, mounting/installation and isolation vary greatly on so many people's rigs. Next, you have all the different combinations of different products/transducers then amps and soundcards.

You cant create a magic profile that then works great on all the combinations. We seen this also with Simvibe as people with units installed on corners will crank the volumes, yet owners of more directly installed units will need much less and will feel more additional detailing.

So currently, tactile, is a nightmare.
It has become so reliant on d.i.y and various opinions in how or what to do and why we see so much confusion.

Beyond these factors and regards the effects themselves, let me highlight some points just based on my own experiences....

1. A general problem we also have is that entry-level hardware does not give enough usable/enjoyable dynamic range. People often question what is the best budget unit to buy and well none of them really provide a flawless performance.

2. Such hardware, in some cases @50Hz of the (bass) frequency range is available to have all the effects used work within. This isn't very much, so how do we apply multiple different effects to feel unique within that very limited range?

3. I found looking at dozens and dozens of people's profiles over the last few years, the most used frequencies for different effects on budget hardware, vary between 30-60Hz. The simple reason is people will repeatedly use frequencies that the units produce the best. To them, less important effects will then be used with the not-so-good working frequencies, and their most preferred effects are given priority to the better feeling frequencies.

Here also lies an issue, as people have different preferences in what they may want to use in effects so while we can offer profile combinations that operate well together, the user is more than likely going to make changes to them...

Improved Effects
It is possible to offer a more efficient usage of the limited frequency range when we monitor which effects are often active at the same time and give these effects as much variation in felt sensation to each other as possible. However, if the user decides, no they want to add or swap this combination to something else then you are back to the same problem of being limited to the number of effects you can operate and still maintain good separation or felt distinction of them.

Note that even with a large BK/TST combo we still can be limited in the number of effects that can be used at once. Even though this as a combination can offer 4x the usable dynamic range. The reason is that often we "need" to repeatedly use certain frequencies for the effect to feel much good.

How then can we repeatedly use similar frequencies without it causing so much of an issue on the transducer? The best solution I found is in having, multiple sets of stereo exciters on the seat. You can then greatly expand the number of used effects and also benefit from the 4x increase in usable frequency range the BK/TST/EXC combo will offer. The second advantage is that any individual effect could have variations that offer different applications in how its effect layers are used on these units for specific feel or sensations to body regions. Simply put we now have much more options to determine the effects feel and placement on the body to standard installations or any product currently on the market.

Solution & Moving Things Forward?
We need to greatly reduce the variations people have in their rigs, and simplify things.
A solution also has to work around the typical limitations we have with tactile mentioned above.

Included in that is some form of community aspect with tutorials, videos, configuration how-to's, and examining every single effect in Simhub and its functions. To have experienced people in effects creation and others keen to learn or be taught in how we make effects built for that configuration. We can possibly for some aspects, also team up with popular content creators of sim hardware channels to help them present and deliver much better content than I could do. Some early work on this has already begun, reaching out to people. Personally, I am keen to find someone that will do such with passion or general interest in tactile and is excited by the prospects of what/how we can change tactile immersion. I feel the subject of tactile has been sidestepped for a long time and never shown what the true potential with it really is?

Lets change that in 2022......

So How Much Per Effect / Car Profile?
My own view, is that effects themselves can remain free and are not sold for money as that seems to be against @Wotever own intentions. They can easily be copied anyways but the truth is..... To get to enjoy these effects you need to have the correct hardware and installation to make them work properly. This is especially more so when we may have more advanced effects using not just a single transducer but the combination of BK/TST/EXC to deliver over a full seat or pedals what that effect is intended to generate in its felt sensations.

RACEBASS Configurations?
For effects, keep in mind, now we have added options, as we can offer variations of the same effect in how they can be incorporated over a BK/TST/EXC combo. So for effects representation, this as a shared solution opens the door to have certain effects vary more in their felt sensation. Also based on what units the (multi-layers) the effect comprises of is output over the seat. It's possible to make a library of effects with multiple options available of a single effect for users to then pick which one they prefer to use. With this approach, the tactile experience is no longer, limited to a single unit's output performance, its individual installation point, nor any of the typical limitations people using the traditional approaches to tactile will be confined to.
 
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  • Deleted member 197115

In my simple mind baseline recommended settings per effect for different types of transducers would be extremely helpful for new and not so people to start. I understand complications of mounting, isolation, DSP, etc.
But we do know ideal operating range of every transducer type, starting from something more closely matching your HW is much better than from default profile that using lowest denominator 44Hz pretty much for everything.
And I am not talking about complete profile, everyone's setup is different with mix and match of different transducers.
What I was suggesting is essentially

effect | transducer type | recommended settings

type of matrix which can be used as a building blocks to setup individual profile.
 
  • Deleted member 1451080

Deleted
 
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In my simple mind baseline recommended settings per effect for different types of transducers would be extremely helpful for new and not so people to start. I understand complications of mounting, isolation, DSP, etc.
But we do know ideal operating range of every transducer type, starting from something more closely matching your HW is much better than from default profile that using lowest denominator 44Hz pretty much for everything.
And I am not talking about complete profile, everyone's setup is different with mix and match of different transducers.
What I was suggesting is essentially

effect | transducer type | recommended settings

type of matrix which can be used as a building blocks to setup individual profile.

I don't have time but I can ask you to do me a favor, create a new thread, within this.
Focus on one effect each week, have people upload and share their variations of that effect.

People can list the hardware the sim title, the car and the settings they use.
Then share as a profile with only that effect included.

Do this then encourage others to do the same, see how it goes and generate some discussion on the effects and settings applied.
 
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Does the below look right?

1633547160183.png
 
  • Deleted member 1449502

So here is my first draft of a newcomer guide for wheelslip. Looking for feedback especially from the people this is intended to help. Do you guys think the format is ok? what can I add/simplify/elaborate on/highlight?

---------------------------------
WHEEL SLIP (3 LAYERS)
1. Late skid
3-9Hz
Recommended to assign to LFE/BKC/Q10B (only for low frequency shakers)

2. Skid
24/12Hz
Recommended to assign to LFE/BKC/Q10B (only for low frequency shakers)

Alternative option for mid range units
36/24Hz to assign to BKG2/MQB-1/BK-mini/BKAdv

3. High frequency
69/66Hz
Recommended to assign to TST/BKG2

Notes:
Ideal configuration for effect: 4 shakers to seperate F/R
F/R Low frequency shaker (LFE/BKC/Q10B)
F/R with TST

Alternative config: 2 Shakers: F/R handled on both but layered effect is maintained with paired shakers
Mono Low frequency shaker (LFE/BKC/Q10B)
Mono with TST

Alternative config 3: 1 Shaker
Mono mid range shaker (BKG2)
only use effect 2Alt and 3
---------------------------------
 
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  • Deleted member 197115

Found frequency graph for Aurasound AST-2B-4 Pro that might help figuring out how to spread effects frequencies using this transducer.
1633620368888.png


Do we have anything similar for other transducers? Was trying to find anything for BK Mini-LFE to no avail.
 
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Found frequency graph for Aurasound AST-2B-4 Pro that might help figuring out how to spread effects frequencies using this transducer.
View attachment 508169

Do we have anything similar for other transducers? Was trying to find anything for BK Mini-LFE to no avail.

Andrew, it is quite common that @40-50Hz or @45-55Hz is a peak output for many budget transducers. Most entry-level hardware will have its strongest ranges between @30-50Hz and some others @40-60Hz.

Some may be better a bit lower than others and some a bit better, a tad higher than others. However really when we start going beyond the 60-80Hz range for many people they may not get much sensation from those frequencies. This in particular with those using corners installations and maybe none or basic isolation. Rig materials and seat used will also play a part.

You are limited to what you can do, pure and simple, just look how narrow the peak is on that diagram you showed.

This is why you will discover people generally using very similar frequencies for most effects as these entry-level units tend to have @20Hz sweet spot within a general 50Hz of range.
 
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  • Deleted member 197115

AuraSounds are simple, any ideas on BK Mini-LFE, it's such a PITA to figure out where it works the best as it pangs at some frequencies, rattles at others, becomes nonlineary strong in one band and barely working in another. Having some sort of graph would definitely help, not sure though if such thing even possible.
 
AuraSounds are simple, any ideas on BK Mini-LFE, it's such a PITA to figure out where it works the best as it pangs at some frequencies, rattles at others, becomes nonlineary strong in one band and barely working in another. Having some sort of graph would definitely help, not sure though if such thing even possible.

The BK piston-based units maybe are not so even over the range or as linear, it appears they can have spikes and drop off. Im not certain if this is tied into their resonant frequency (9Hz) and we see an issue at @18Hz/36Hz on larger and smaller units?

It would be interesting and I am curious if BK Advance owners find a peak around the @27Hz with it being the middle model? Perhaps not but I expect it to also have a similar spike issue.

High gain with the problematic @35Hz for the smaller BK models is old news now but these forums have covered many times how with DSP we can alter the output characteristics of certain models to improve and tune their performance more to our preferences or usage scenarios.

This is a step to improving the tactile for the user, although we can't just add +10dB to a high frequency these units struggle to output with much detail and it then makes a dramatic improvement. If the unit has a physical/design limitation in performance then that's what we are limited by.

DSP can be about reducing or controlling the spikes/peaks so you can run the unit at a higher level to help improve other felt frequencies. Yet what we often see with effects is people take the 40Hz peak and constantly use that in effects which will only help to drown out other frequencies.

On the large units, the pang can still happen but its peak seems closer to the 20Hz range and less of an issue other than when we are pushing these units hard. Going beyond the 60Hz with BK can pale in comparison to some other competitors. So their role seems to be best at the sub 50Hz. Regardless of their paper specs listings

Possibly one of the contributing factors to the BK Mini Vs BK Gamer models is the higher-rated frequency response and their only model rated 1/3 higher in its potential output...

Paper specs need to be taken with a grain of salt but it's possible the BKG unit has a slightly wider sweet spot? Just me speculating though...

BK Gamer
Frequency Response:10 - 300Hz

BK Mini Lfe *(Product Sticker States 5Hz -200Hz)
Frequency Response:10 - 200 Hz

BK Mini Concert
Frequency Response:5 - 200 Hz
 
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AuraSounds are simple, any ideas on BK Mini-LFE, it's such a PITA to figure out where it works the best as it pangs at some frequencies, rattles at others, becomes nonlineary strong in one band and barely working in another.
This comparison of Aura and BK mini (LFE or CT??) would be very interesting for me as I´m contemplating upgrading the shaker under the heel plate.

Momentarily I have an Aura under my seat and an inferior dayton under the feet and want to have the same shaker at both locations.

If the BK mini would offer a lower frequency band ( no chance on a DSP though, not the funds and no patience to learn it) it could be worth it to upgrade both to BK mini.
On the other hand if the improvement is marginal I´d add another Aura and call it a day.

MFG Carsten.
 
  • Deleted member 197115

On the other hand if the improvement is marginal I´d add another Aura and call it a day.
At times I regret having Mini-LFEs due to their temperamental uneven response. You can still tune them by avoiding offensive 35hz or anything higher than 45hz. They really shine at low end below 30hz, but not every effect works well in this frequency range.
Perhaps not very popular opinion, but for simple setups Aura can be a much more user friendly transducer that is easy to drive and tune. Mounted on cantilever plate has pretty strong kick too.
 
Even if conditions under which manufacturers graphs are realistic,
response for any transducer will be highly influence by its attachment.

@cnhoff was trying to address that:
Please be aware that the measured spectra are for sure not 100% accurate, as i do not know the frequency response of my diy piezo probes. Everything looks reasonable though and more importantly, doing a frequency sweep across the useable bandwidth, the perceived vibration power in my behind correlates well with the measurement.

Another disclaimer is, that the measured un-equalized frequency responses are not the shaker's but the ones of the whole assembly. I saw some differences (albeit reasonably small) when comparing the pedal plate and seat plate assembly, especially different resonances due to the size and mass loading of the plates.

Here are the unequalized (apart from one lower Q tap intended to raise the <20Hz freqs.) vs. equalized results for a Buttkicker LFE

SeatLFEnoEQ.jpg

SeatLFEEQ.jpg

and a TST329
SeatTSTnoEQ.jpg

SeatTSTEQ.jpg


Please be aware that the LFE was filtered with a ~40Hz lowpass filter and the TST bandpass filtered with corner frequencies at around 35 and 180 Hz. Everything above 40Hz on the LFE spectra are harmonics that the max-hold SA keeps in the spectrum during the frequency sweep, so those can be ignored.

As expected, the TST e.g. has a strong peak at around 60-80Hz, but drops off by 20dB(!) at 100Hz.This can be easily felt, as the vibrations basically cease in that range compared to the lower freqs. I would say, in the un-equalized state, the TST cannot be easily used with broadband effects above 100Hz because of that, although with single frequency effects you can always increase the volume to your needs of course.

In my opinion the TST response could be improved still at the lower and upper edges, but with my current setup, this would need more EQ-taps than the NX offers. In the end the target bandwidth spans 5 octaves. I am sure there is a solution, but i will leave it at that for now.
 
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I ordered a 239 and a LFE, they are on the way but I actually like my lfe mini's bolted direct to the seat. They are under left and right thigh. Obviously I dont power them too high because they can kick in that position. While they are localised they are not pinpointed.

So they deliver some good feedback that I think will mix in well with the 239/lfe that I will put under the seat mounted across its mounting frame. I wont know how the others feel until they are running but I have a feeling I will miss something if I take them away from where they are.
 
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At times I regret having Mini-LFEs due to their temperamental uneven response. You can still tune them by avoiding offensive 35hz or anything higher than 45hz. They really shine at low end below 30hz, but not every effect works well in this frequency range.
Perhaps not very popular opinion, but for simple setups Aura can be a much more user friendly transducer that is easy to drive and tune. Mounted on cantilever plate has pretty strong kick too.
Exclusively for Road Vibration and Road Impact, would you say cantilever the Aura or directmount the BK MINI?
Goal would be a strong response for curbs as an example.

MFG Carsten
 
Exclusively for Road Vibration and Road Impact, would you say cantilever the Aura or directmount the BK MINI?
Goal would be a strong response for curbs as an example.

MFG Carsten
Im not Andrew, but for me, this is where direct mount the mini lfe shines. On kerbs they are fantastic, working well within their limits. I have a shell seat so YMMV. I dont use stereo effects for anything other than kerbs and it works really well. Yes you notice its the left and right side, you dont think about it too much. Going through quick esses hitting kerbs gives you nice left/right/left effects, monza first corner etc. I find them very defined where they are.
 
  • Deleted member 197115

Exclusively for Road Vibration and Road Impact, would you say cantilever the Aura or directmount the BK MINI?
Goal would be a strong response for curbs as an example.

MFG Carsten
I have both cantilevered, prefer dampened response from suspended mount more than direct one, it also tames down some knocking. But Road Impact and Road Rumble especially curbs in ACC really shine with Mini-LFE at 25hz.
 
Please be aware that the measured spectra are for sure not 100% accurate, as i do not know the frequency response of my diy piezo probes. Everything looks reasonable though and more importantly, doing a frequency sweep across the useable bandwidth, the perceived vibration power in my behind correlates well with the measurement.

Another disclaimer is, that the measured un-equalized frequency responses are not the shaker's but the ones of the whole assembly. I saw some differences (albeit reasonably small) when comparing the pedal plate and seat plate assembly, especially different resonances due to the size and mass loading of the plates.

Here are the unequalized (apart from one lower Q tap intended to raise the <20Hz freqs.) vs. equalized results for a Buttkicker LFE

View attachment 508261
View attachment 508262
and a TST329
View attachment 508263
View attachment 508264

Please be aware that the LFE was filtered with a ~40Hz lowpass filter and the TST bandpass filtered with corner frequencies at around 35 and 180 Hz. Everything above 40Hz on the LFE spectra are harmonics that the max-hold SA keeps in the spectrum during the frequency sweep, so those can be ignored.

As expected, the TST e.g. has a strong peak at around 60-80Hz, but drops off by 20dB(!) at 100Hz.This can be easily felt, as the vibrations basically cease in that range compared to the lower freqs. I would say, in the un-equalized state, the TST cannot be easily used with broadband effects above 100Hz because of that, although with single frequency effects you can always increase the volume to your needs of course.

In my opinion the TST response could be improved still at the lower and upper edges, but with my current setup, this would need more EQ-taps than the NX offers. In the end the target bandwidth spans 5 octaves. I am sure there is a solution, but i will leave it at that for now.

So from your findings so far, what do you think the performance would be like if we combined a large BK with a TST and then tuned each with their own crossover curves and PEQ to reduce peaks and to help boost the lows?
 

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