Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[stigs2cousin]

Sadly, that receiver appears to lack discrete 5.1 inputs, limiting it to 2 channels e.g. from SimHub ShakeIt..

Yes, that was a pit i fell in when trying to get 5.1 audio to my rig.
With the PS4 i could just loop through the HDMI cable and everything was set.

On the PC side its impossible ( for me at least) to get a digital 5.1 output.
Even the optical output is limited to two channels as @blekenbleu said.

I got around that by buying a second hand Denon 1507 which has analog inputs for 75 Euros which is cheaper than a new onboard soundcard (2 channels even on S/PDIF)

I should have researched more because the sound settings ( eg equalizers and volume/distance settings per channel) are a lot less than on my main receiver, a Yamaha RX1900.
I assumed they would be generally the same. ( ASS, YOU, ME)

So when going that route do your research that you buy a receiver with enough power and the desired settings.

MFG Carsten

 

[stigs2cousin]

Since i´ve got my seat dismantled right now some questions about bass shaker mounting and placement.

I won´t go full professionell equipment for my first try, so bear with me.

For the bottom I think it´s easy, the seat ( Recaro Sportster CS from 2004) has a plastic bottom "pan" that has contact to the steel seat frame at three points, a hinge of about 20cm width in the front and two springs in the back.
The plan would be to bolt something like the Reckhorn BS 200 to the underside, there it would hang in free air.
On the other hand I´ve seen a lot of videos where shaker a bolted to plastic parts or shoved inside the seat padding?
I´m a bit sceptical because Reckhorn states the surrounding materials should withstand at least 120°C.
Are these things really getting that hot? Since i´d be sitting directly on the shaker, separated only by the seat pan and the foam padding I think it wouldn´t need too much power for a good result.

Things would be more complicated at the backrest because the only "free air2 mounting method would be the back plate.
But then the vibrations had to travel through the backplate, the steel frame and than the foam padding.
When mounted inside the foam I fear this things would get too hot?

On the front the plan would be to mount Dayton pucks to brake and gas pedal.

First order of business would be to simulate wheel slip just to improve the feeling for the car.
If I like it maybe add road texture and rpm/gearchange?

So biggest question.
do i need to worry about a fire hazard because the shaker would get to hot?

Would a puck at the foot and a BS200 under the butt be able to improve the feeling for wheel slip?

Thanks in advance, Carsten

 

[fjskmdl]

@stigs2cousin: i have a sparco R100 (similar problem, tought about cutting out some foam and insert some DAEX32EP-4 exciters.
Then i saw this video:

https://youtu.be/gpidQkAVENc?t=314

He attaches some pucks to a small wooden plate and puts it against the backfoam of the seat.


My question (not specific to stigs2cousin):

I tought about doing something similar, but with the DAEX32EP-4 instead of TT25-16 pucks.

I guess the foam in the back is between 3-4 cm (0.09842519685 - 0.1312335958 feet) thick

Would this give an OK result? If so, should i better use the DAEX32EP-4 exciters or some TT25-16 pucks (or something else?)

Or maybe, as stigs2cousin suggests, cut some foam out of the backstead an put them in there gives a better result? (no heat issue?)

thank you

 

[blekenbleu]

On the front the plan would be to mount Dayton pucks to brake and gas pedal.

DAEX32EP-4 are a better fit for pedal backs, although pressure-sensitive adhesive attachment is a concern.

He attaches some pucks to a small wooden plate and puts it against the backfoam of the seat.

That seems elegant. TT25-16 pucks are thinner with 3x effective driven area.
Particularly when mounted to a panel like that, good for transmitting haptics thru foam.

On the other hand I´ve seen a lot of videos where shaker a bolted to plastic parts or shoved inside the seat padding?

If your Recaro design is similar to that in this video,
then consider inserting TT25-16 pucks between its plastic shell and foam,
with pucks on a panel with some thin foam between panel and plastic to avoid rattles.
With only an inch of foam between me and pucks, not much power is used, and heat is not an issue.

 

[fjskmdl]

Hello,

My new shoppinglist would be these Parts:
4x daytonaudio TT25-8 +- 70€
1x T.racks 4x4 dsp mini amp 158€

The pucks would be Mounted against backfoam of sparco r100 with wooden plate as shown in video

1) I chose the t.racks mini 4x4 because it has integrated dsp. I read this really helps te fine tune? Or is it a waste of money in my setup? I should be Anke tot connect all 4 pucks tot this right?

2) Cabling: do i just need speaker cable wire? 16awg? 18 awg?

3) TT25-8 - some sites mention 30W, others 15W. Are there 2 versions available, of is it just 15W RMS / 30W max?

4) extra USB soundcard. Is there anything specific i need you keep in mind when buying a soundcard? Does it need 7.1 audio or certain connections in my case?

I guess that would be all i need you get started correct?

Thanks for your help

 

[stigs2cousin]

Thanks for your help @blekenbleu

I went for the pucks because my thinking was that the bass shakers (pucks) would offer lower frequencies than the exciters.
If that is a concern or even noticeable i can´t judge.
It would be easier and more neat looking to fabricate holders for the exciters.

On the other hand, i´m not sure i´d need this, the SC2 is quite good in comunicating the front wheels.
it´s the rear wheels where i´ve to rely mainly on sound information.

For the seat I hope for the effects road texture/bumps and wheel slide.
For the optics (stealth) it would be nicer to use pucks in the seat.
But can a puck in the seat cushion and a puck in the backrest cushion transport the information I wish for?
I somehow think something stronger like an Auro under the seat pan would be a better transmitter for roadfeel and bumps. Than a puck in the back for wheelslip?

Any experiences ( and please keep in mind I don´t want to sell my car for tactile equipment. )

@fskmdl:

there are two versions of the pucks in the shops, one with 8Ohm and one with 16Ohm.

Regarding USB soundcard go back some pages in this thread, there are several models suggested.

The amp you linked looks interesting, maybe some one has an opinion on it.

MFG Carsten

 

[blekenbleu]

Than a puck in the back for wheelslip?

A 4-puck SRS ShakeSeat cushion nicely distinguishes front from rear wheelslip; haptics from those pucks are quote localized.
Learning to sort different signals from the same actuator has yet to work well for me.

I somehow think something stronger like an Auro under the seat pan would be a better transmitter for roadfeel and bumps.

That seems reasonable; I recall reading that that shakers fore and aft better simulate impacts transmitted thru tires in sequence,
but if the SC2 satisfies for front wheel impacts, then rear wheel impacts sent only to a rear shaker may suffice..

FWIW, Hobby servo harness tensioners are useful for cornering and braking force feedback.

my thinking was that the bass shakers (pucks) would offer lower frequencies than the exciters

That has not been my impression; I should remove a TT25-16 puck from the ShakeSeat
and measure it side-by-side with DAEX32EP-4, before installing that on the brake pedal...

The amp you linked looks interesting, maybe some one has an opinion on it

Discussed here and there; measured here.

The pucks would be Mounted against backfoam of sparco r100 with wooden plate as shown in video

My experience has been, without a tight harness, leaning forward while driving and not contacting seat back is too easy;
perhaps your Sparco tilts back enough to prevent that...

AWG: 16 Watts into 4 Ohms is 2 Amps (R times I-squared); 18AWG is fine for stranded,
only about 0.2 Ohms for 10 meters.

 

[stigs2cousin]

Thanks again @blekenbleu

 

[Mr Latte]

Wheelslip works very well when you combine it with g-forces, if you have capable units.

Example scenario for oversteer/understeer:

Wheelslip can activate Deceleration G
Wheelslip can activate Lateral G

I've been applying a thick/heavy felt load, to represent the car's chassis moving with the large BK
Using from as low as 3Hz - 8Hz (boosted via DSP) in early tests appears to work well.

Then I apply frequencies that have a gritty/coarse feel (not deep) to represent the tyre slip.
Something in the range of 55-70Hz just prior to when the output of a unit is starting to ween off. Although this varies with the units used or how/where installed.

What is possible even on a single large BK, while its non-positional compared to say using 4 or 6 large BK installed for this. You can generate a very satisfying feedback, potentially more (useful/detailed) feeling in sensation than motion gives with traction loss or seatbelt tensioners? People differ, not everyone wants to be squeezed or moved around for their immersion in a long race but we do want as much feedback from the cars activity right?.

Now, hold on, before motion fans get triggered. As what I mean by this is that you get to familiarise yourself with what felt vibrations are representative to minimal slip and what felt vibrations represent more extensive slip. To offer a range of sensations/intensity, based on your curve/threshold settings applied.

We already feel such in our hands from steering wheel feedback. The idea is to build on that and apply it to the rigs seat/pedals. Certainly, as a driving aid, it can be immersive but informative of what's happening with the car. I also recently teased how we can use a VU meter to give a visual indication of slip levels (based on the tactile real-time output) to combine with progressively felt tactile sensations if desired.

It's my own take at a different approach. Now of course, motion or belt tensioners will be more aggressive in forces/movement on the body. I'm thinking it is possible, they may not be necessarily just as sensitive or detailed in felt sensations? Or are something that once the initial "wow" wears off can become overbearing or tiring?

People on these forums say you can't generate physical compression G-Loads with tactile.
I'm not trying to and no it won't press into your body, but your body's muscle tissue and bone kinetics are very sensitive to frequencies and high energy loads with low bass. Which are then able to be used to represent load and slip independent activity in this example.

The objective is to give the driver immersive, potentially positional, usable feedback for the car's chassis and tyres.

 

[anton_Chez]

Or are something that once the initial "wow" wears off can become overbearing or tiring?

This, X 1000

 

[anton_Chez]

I've been playing with decel forces and I reckon they feel pretty good at the moment.

 

[Mr Latte]

I've been playing with decel forces and I reckon they feel pretty good at the moment.

Yeah but really you need the lowest range frequencies to get the better sensations for this type of effect. They have a smoothness but rich depth to them.

With continued lowering of frequencies, you go through a range that have a strong knocking feel to them. I found these in comparison feel odd for this effect. However the 15-20 ish Hz is good though for engine strain vibes for RPM or SPEED and larger bumps with nice energy.

Ive still got a load more to test and effects ideas to implement yet.

 

[blekenbleu]

Wheelslip works very well when you combine it with g-forces, if you have capable units.

It seems to me not so much an issue of unit capability as sculpting those signals.
Minor wheelslip wants relatively higher frequencies and lower amplitudes, corresponding to tire squeal,
then becoming progressively lower frequency and higher amplitude with increased slippage, corresponding to judder.
During cornering, both wheels at either end of the car slip about the same amount,
but haptics should increase for tires most loaded, requiring a modulation of slip haptic signal amplitudes by corresponding G forces. That should be possible with SimHub ShakeIt, but I have yet to attempt properly implementing it.

 

[anton_Chez]

However the 15-20 ish Hz is good though for engine strain vibes for RPM or SPEED and larger bumps with nice energy.

That's where I'm focusing those types of effects around. 21hz for the decel gforce effect seems to be fairly meaty. It's about as low as it goes before it's losing strength in the feedback. Perhaps I can boost that range with the DSP, see if I can get some better power to that range of hz and make it more usable. The feeling is there it just becomes a little weaker than at around 20hz.

 

[Mr Latte]

That's where I'm focusing those types of effects around. 21hz for the decel gforce effect seems to be fairly meaty. It's about as low as it goes before it's losing strength in the feedback. Perhaps I can boost that range with the DSP, see if I can get some better power to that range of hz and make it more usable. The feeling is there it just becomes a little weaker than at around 20hz.

Increasing the output may help in offering a few extra Hz but then you can have too much amplitude with frequencies the unit is indeed capable of generating better.

Likewise, if I apply +15dB via my mixer to a frequency a unit is not generating so good. If the unit physically just cannot output that frequency well, adding even a crazy amount of additional gain like this won't be of much benefit.

In what is felt with 20Hz, the sensation generated is entirely different mate, to feeling sub 10Hz. That's @ 50% difference in frequency being used. I've shown video examples of low Hz output shaking couches and it just doesn't happen with higher frequencies as it's all about the energy generated with the extra bandwidth these lowest frequencies have.

Therefore how we can use different frequencies and importantly what range of frequencies can be used to better effects is very much important to either having okay tactile or taking it to another level.

While not ideal, to give you a workable illustration. If you compared 40Hz to 60Hz or 60Hz to 90Hz applying the same @ 50% more frequency. The felt sensations and energy included are very different. You cant make 90Hz feel like 60Hz just by increasing the gain. Therefore you certainly cannot make 20Hz feel like sub 10Hz or for that matter sub 5Hz either.

From a perspective of currently owning over 12 different models of transducers/exciters, the same frequencies won't necessarily feel as good on all units. We also know full well what the Hz limitations are with most units too.

Now speaking of which, this arrived today



Gees mate, this little blighter is friggin tiny!

I can tell from the size and the weight, there is NO WAY the mini quake will come anywhere close for low Hz output to the units that achieve this best. Certainly will though compare and test in the future...

 

[Mr Latte]

It seems to me not so much an issue of unit capability as sculpting those signals.
Minor wheelslip wants relatively higher frequencies and lower amplitudes, corresponding to tire squeal,
then becoming progressively lower frequency and higher amplitude with increased slippage, corresponding to judder.

Yes, indeed certain frequencies can perhaps be used to relate better for specific effects sensations.
When you have such a small range of frequencies that are (best felt) then how much sculpting can be done with budget or entry-level tactile offerings?

Regards units used I disagree. I can't highlight enough the importance of the large Buttkickers when it comes to applying greater depth or energy to the output we may want from certain effects. Yet at the same time if buying and combining the right hardware you can have much more range to play with for that sculpting you talk of. The capability of the unit is paramount to what you can achieve with it or what effects it may be best at handling.

During cornering, both wheels at either end of the car slip about the same amount,
but haptics should increase for tires most loaded, requiring modulation of slip haptic signal amplitudes by corresponding G forces. That should be possible with SimHub ShakeIt, but I have yet to attempt properly implementing it.

Yes, yes, yes but rather than assume what might, could or should happen.
It may all sound very technical and impressive what you written and going on about "modulation and slip haptic signal amplitudes".

For my own build and effects creation...
I prefer to implement ways to determine exactly what IS happening with effects.
Not just with frequencies generated but also their output levels and activity to each other.


Here's an example that may dispel different people's theories or assumptions with practical operation.

Yellow =LATERAL G - Left & Right (Custom Effect)
Cyan = ACCELERATION G
Magenta = DECELLERATION G




Blue = WHEELSLIP & LOCK (4) FL & FR / RL & RR

Brief Video

Tactile Tech Nerd (DJ Latte)

 

[MikeThailand]

I have read most of this thread and decided to dive in. I am in Thailand and sourcing bass shakers is limited. I have found locally two manufacturers: Visaton and Samtronic. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with these units and if so how did they perform.

Samtronic (appears like a knockoff of Aurasound)
6 Inch bass shakerSpecifications power handling: Rated Power 50 watts RMS; Max Power: 100 watts maxImpedance: 4 ohmsUsable frequency response: 20 to 80 HzFs:40 HzForce peak:30 lbs. per ft.Dimensions: 6.2" dia. x2.5" HWeight: 1.41KG/PCS
6 Inch bass shaker
Specifications:
Power handling: Rated Power 50 watts RMS; Max Power: 100 watts max
Impedance: 4 ohms
Usable frequency response: 20 to 80 Hz
Fs:40 Hz
Force peak:30 lbs. per ft.
Dimensions: 6.2" dia. x2.5" H
Weight: 1.41KG/PCS

Visaton BSX 130 WP - 4 Ohm Structure-borne sound converter
คุณสมบัติ / Specifications

คุณสมบัติ	Value
Driver Shape	Round
Impedance	4Ω
Nominal Rated Power	50W
Maximum Rated Power	100W
Weight	1.2kg
Length	3m

 

[Mr Latte]

Yip, seems a similar unit to many.
In Asia region, you will likely also find unofficial clones of Aura Pro without the Aura writing.
I don't know if performance is the same or these are made from B-Stock or rejects but just be aware of that. They may be fine or identical but I would be a bit dubious of some clones that appear to look like something else.

If it's any help......

The below, may all be rather similar in what they mainly achieve but with some variations in outputs over different frequencies. Some are rated to about 80Hz others to about 100Hz. Also slight variations in the peak punch around 40Hz-50Hz.

Note: Higher Hz and felt energy will fizzle out if you place them on corners to main rig frame sections. Installation more direct to seat and pedals will in most circumstances bring better results.
Isolating or de-coupling the seat and pedals will further enhance what you feel but is optional.


Similar Budget Options
Aura Pro / AuraSound AST-2B-4 Pro Bass Shaker
Reckhorn BS 200
Reckhorn BS 200i
ADX (discontinued)
Dayton Audio BST 1
K-Woon (2ohm / 4ohm)

 

[blekenbleu]

It may all sound very technical and impressive what you written and going on about "modulation and slip haptic signal amplitudes".

The challenge (for me) has been sorting how to exploit what SimHub already provides.
For each effect, ShakeIt Bass Shakers offers Export output value as a property.
Then exporting WHEELS SLIP as corner properties
(which by observation are nearly identical left-to-right),
and importing those properties into a CUSTOM EFFECT already created for G forces
should enable 4 corner WHEEL SLIPS modulated by lateral and longitudinal accelerations.

WHEELS SLIP are evidently based on GameRawData.Physics.WheelSlip0[1-4] properties;
no need to re-export them.

Prototype SimHub ShakeIt profile is available for G-force modulated wheel slip on GitHub;
".txt" should be truncated from its name to be recognized by SimHub Profiles manager.
Included RPMS and WHEELS SLIP effects are uninvolved in this effect.
The Left/Right CUSTOM EFFECT only generates G-force proxy properties
for the Corners CUSTOM EFFECT, which is for output to a sound card.

 

[MikeThailand]

Yip, seems a similar unit to many.
In Asia region, you will likely also find unofficial clones of Aura Pro without the Aura writing.
I don't know if performance is the same or these are made from B-Stock or rejects but just be aware of that. They may be fine or identical but I would be a bit dubious of some clones that appear to look like something else.

If it's any help......

The below, may all be rather similar in what they mainly achieve but with some variations in outputs over different frequencies. Some are rated to about 80Hz others to about 100Hz. Also slight variations in the peak punch around 40Hz-50Hz.

Note: Higher Hz and felt energy will fizzle out if you place them on corners to main rig frame sections. Installation more direct to seat and pedals will in most circumstances bring better results.
Isolating or de-coupling the seat and pedals will further enhance what you feel but is optional.


Similar Budget Options
Aura Pro / AuraSound AST-2B-4 Pro Bass Shaker
Reckhorn BS 200
Reckhorn BS 200i
ADX (discontinued)
Dayton Audio BST 1
K-Woon (2ohm / 4ohm)