Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[EsxPaul]

I'm sorry to see that this subject is grinding you down again @Mr Latte

I can imagine you might be thinking that I'm one of the group who hasn't come forward with settings or suggestions to help others and I wouldn't blame you as that's just how it looks.

I was genuinely exited and really looking forward to getting stuck into this tactile malarkey, especially the RPM effect side of things. The anticipation of how I had imagined that one effect might feel was the sole reason I paid out for some fairly decent equipment at the beginning of last summer. As you know from my older posts from around that time, I struggled and never managed to get anywhere with it due to my own lack of knowledge and ability to implement. Embarrassingly, I would estimate that my amps and shakers have had a total of about 3 to 5 hours of being powered on since new due to a lack of physical energy on my part.

Unfortunately for me and without going into sob stories, my health tanked at just around that time and I've not been able to use my setup since then. In fact, I checked my Steam stats today and noticed that the last time I opened a sim happened to be ACC on September 13th 2020! Hopefully things will improve and I'll be able to fire things up and jump back in at some point in the next few months.

Just a little clarification from my end as I'd feel shitty if you thought that I've taken from your hard work, done a legger with it and and am sitting in tactile paradise with some magical settings that I keep to myself

I'm still reading the forums most days and hopefully you'll stick around to dish out some more of your legendary bollockings to those of us who never really grasped the subject. I need something to keep me occupied while I wait for my old body to get better, damn it!

If you do decide you need to take a break and step back, make sure you try to pop back in with some progress reports on the tubular behemoth. Keep well mate and avoid the stress whenever it gets to be too much

 

[Mr Latte]

You aint ha

I'm sorry to see that this subject is grinding you down again @Mr Latte

I can imagine you might be thinking that I'm one of the group who hasn't come forward with settings or suggestions to help others and I wouldn't blame you as that's just how it looks.

I was genuinely exited and really looking forward to getting stuck into this tactile malarkey, especially the RPM effect side of things. The anticipation of how I had imagined that one effect might feel was the sole reason I paid out for some fairly decent equipment at the beginning of last summer. As you know from my older posts from around that time, I struggled and never managed to get anywhere with it due to my own lack of knowledge and ability to implement. Embarrassingly, I would estimate that my amps and shakers have had a total of about 3 to 5 hours of being powered on since new due to a lack of physical energy on my part.

Unfortunately for me and without going into sob stories, my health tanked at just around that time and I've not been able to use my setup since then. In fact, I checked my Steam stats today and noticed that the last time I opened a sim happened to be ACC on September 13th 2020! Hopefully things will improve and I'll be able to fire things up and jump back in at some point in the next few months.

Just a little clarification from my end as I'd feel shitty if you thought that I've taken from your hard work, done a legger with it and and am sitting in tactile paradise with some magical settings that I keep to myself

I'm still reading the forums most days and hopefully you'll stick around to dish out some more of your legendary bollockings to those of us who never really grasped the subject. I need something to keep me occupied while I wait for my old body to get better, damn it!

If you do decide you need to take a break and step back, make sure you try to pop back in with some progress reports on the tubular behemoth. Keep well mate and avoid the stress whenever it gets to be too much

I appreciate the update on your own situation, wish you better health too and sorry to hear about that. I never could understand why you didnt ask or reach out for help if you needed help. My issue is the lack of any form of group effort or input from people here, regards effects creation or even the operation of Simhub and determining amp settings etc.

We have several people with BK/Exciter combos who have had them installed and operating for months. So, someone shows me a thread or a post on single users own findings on effects they settled with. Or effects they shared, ahhhh indeed...

Its not you or any single individual but yes it does piss me off when you help people, give them a good portion of your time and then ask them to do some comparison or tests and they dont bother their backside.

I will be looking at all engine options in Simhub but the new findings have helped me apply specific characteristics to RPM. Idle is an example as we can alter the timing easily and offer a nice judder on initial take off with low revs.

I have begun testing of my own isolator towers with a mock-up build of one and comparing some different tactile on attached tubing for a temp test platform. Want to get the Earthquake Q10B and TST on next just to see how well the isolation works with different frequencies with different units.

AMG GT3 / Engine Idle quick video


Test Frame



Below is example of Simhub single layer using only Base 2Hz / High 18Hz
Notice how harmonics are generated well beyond even 20Hz as the display on the X32 shows.

If we seek to create better effects, my stance has always been its better to know what's going on with settings and the output generated.

Ferrari 488 GT3 (Max RPM video)

 

[dwightyone]

I think you're a tactile legend Mr Latte and RD would be a far poorer place without you.

I don't have exciters and just have 1 bk gamer and tbh it feels okay-good but there again I don't really know how to set it up properly tbh. Dont really know what the volume on the bk amp should be, nor windows volume level, do I press the switch in or out on the low and high pass buttons on the amp, what level should filter dial be on. I don't quite grasp the basics of sound, tactile and all the settings to improve it with simhub. I guess there are lots of people like me on or reading this thread and that's my measly poor excuse for not contributing more.

Maybe tactile needs a back to basics absolute beginners thread for people who are at nursery level like me...

But that aside, Mr Latte, you have helped loads and loads of people and it makes me sad that some can't be even bothered to give a like for the high quality "free" in-depth help.

Edit: I read this thread sometimes just to see the images of the stuff your doing and how your explain things to others even though my setup is really basic in comparison.

 

[EsxPaul]

What a great visual representation of the idle effect you showed there @Mr Latte. I wasn't expecting to see such a large amount of movement and it looks like you've really been able to decouple the specific sections of your rig from one another.

It's fantastic to see these things being demonstrated

 

[Mr Latte]

Nah we can do better, that will come later perhaps, these are only quick teasers.
Here is the same but with a recent shown addition.

We can alter the (breathing or beat) of the engines idle via the Hz variation between two layers.
The VU meter is just an additional cool way to see it in action. I will demonstrate it better if I bother to do my own build thread when more progress is made.

It's important I get the isolators well tested before adding on the other 5 towers (3 per side).
Already had some changes made to the originally intended plan.

 

[dwightyone]

My BK gamer don't do that! Like looking at my old austin metro when it came back to life after the 57th breakdown

 

[St3fan]

Hi guys about 4 years ago I made this post regarding adding tactile feedback system to my sim rig, and big shoutout to @Mr Latte who helped a ton: https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/a-noobs-question-regarding-simvibes-chassis-mode.139260/

I am just sharing some stories after that. Will be a bit long.

When that build was finished I was using one shaker on the back of my G27 pedals, and one shaker under my seat. Sim Shaker Wheels did not have a preset for a 2-channel setup for front-back, so I spent quite some time trying to make my own audio samples. However, as a noob in music/audio in general (my job was related to signal processing to some extent but I was far from experienced regarding audio signals), the tactile setup was just meh for racing, and I ended up spending more time using the bass shakers to output a replicate of audio for me watching action movies inside Oculus Rift (it actually felt great), than sim racing.

A year later I moved across half the country, and at the new place my downstairs neighbor had a small baby. Although they never complained about any noise that I made, I decided not to use the bass shakers at all. After that I upgraded from G27 to Fanatec CSL+CSP, and took of the Dayton shaker behind my pedals, leaving the ADX under the seat for occasional movie watching. Note: I thought the rumble motors on the V3 pedals could provide decent tactile feedback, but they turn out to be very underwhelming IMO.

A few months later, the MDF I cut to mount the ADX under the seat snapped, and then both shakers have been sleeping in my closet ever since.

Two weeks ago I started thinking about upgrading my sim racing equipment again. After carefully going over all the spending that I have made over the years (which hurt but was very helpful), I remembered the bass shakers. I decided to make full use of everything that I bought. Besides, neighbor's baby is now a toddler much more noisy than any bass shaker, I figure it is not too inconsiderate of me to use bass shakers again.

Not wanting to make more shady woodwork, I decide to buy two mounting plates from 4PlayRacing on ebay. They arrive in 2 weeks, and much more substantial than I expected. They have threaded holes for mounting the ADX and the Dayton, and they come with hardware. The problem is that it is not clear what size of hex key is needed, and it seems that the plate-mounting bolt uses a standard hex key, but the shaker-mounting bolt uses a metric hex key.

With those plates the two shakers are now on my seat once again. I had a plan to buy one more ADX shaker so I can have a more symmetric setup, but it seems that the ADX shaker is no longer on sale anywhere. As a result I decide to just mount both shakers left/right under my seat and see if I can make them kinda similar by adjusting balance or something.

You may notice that the two plates are not parallel to the floor, but it is because the seat itself is a bit twisted and does not sit flat. The whole aluminum rig is sitting on top of some 2x2 wood (as risers), and then the whole thing is sitting on foam pad.

The biggest issue that I always have is how I isolate the vibrations. I have made many attempts, but can't seem to get a perfect result. This time I am using some rubber feet for washing machine, and I also put one rubber grommet at each corner of the seat.

I have run a couple of laps in iRacing with Sim Shaker Wheel as well as SimHub using default audio samples for left rear/right rear. The effects seem to be transmitting to my butt okay-ish but a bit inconsistent. For now I am slowing figuring out what effects to use. Currently I only use road effects/road rumble. I have tried adding a bit wheel slip, but have found that it is too easy to be triggered. When I am going through the carousel at Road America, there is constant wheel slip effect going on that does not really provide useful information and even breaks the immersion a bit.

I think currently my biggest issue is that I still have not got a clear idea what bass shakers are really capable of. I am quite sure that if I go to some sim racing demo center I will be amazed by their tactile setup and have a better understanding how I should tune my shakers, but with the pandemic I think such plan needs to be put off.

One thing I would like to suggest to anyone who is thinking about doing tactile setup: don't use factory car seat like the Prius seat I am using. This seat is so padded and dumbs the vibrations, it is hard to directly mount a bass shaker, and the cables, springs, and all random things on the seat make random annoying rattling when bass shaker vibrates.

 

[Alvaro de la Orden]

I have tried adding a bit wheel slip, but have found that it is too easy to be triggered. When I am going through the carousel at Road America, there is constant wheel slip effect going on that does not really provide useful information and even breaks the immersion a bit.

Try adding more value to "Threshold" value, default is 0. Increasing that, the effect will shake the exciters when reading higher values. You can check how the graph changes as you increase the threshold.

 

[RacingMat]

One thing I would like to suggest to anyone who is thinking about doing tactile setup: don't use factory car seat like the Prius seat I am using.

yes, fiber racing seats work great with transducers bolted onto it

 

[Mr Latte]

Enjoyed reading your story.

With isolation, you have the primary isolation that should decouple the seat/pedals from the main rig. I see you have the commonly used bobbins already mounted.

These will help to decouple the seat but a good portion of the energy will still pass through the seat, yes? Feel the rest of the rigs frame and then what is going into the floor.

Spoiler: Exploration Sidenote

I have been working on mockups for a better isolation option for 8020 rigs.
To come up with a compact solution that helps to improve on the typical bobbins people often use.

One that comprises of rubber/spring/metal and vibration dampening pads. So far I've tried several options with more materials still coming. I to seek to get the best combination partly as an interest with this stuff but also had been considering offering these as an affordable item to sell.

I have already spent quite a bit of money researching some options and getting suitable springs. It does appear to work better than the sandwiched bobbin solution I have shown/shared in the past. Also having a small amount of rebound can help increase the vibes.

Vibe Issues:
I have had a massive challenge with my own build as it will use 8-10 large BK. These are ready but tests with different ideas for installation will be done before deciding what to go with. I need to reduce as much as possible the vibes these generate going into a wooden floor as it's an upstairs room and the noise below without isolation is crazy.

For my own build I looked at this as a 3 step multipass process:

A) The main or primary isolation for decoupling seat and pedals
B) Secondary isolation of the rig frame to decouple it from the floor
C) Final addition with isolation on the floor

I will share in the near future options I went with, but I spent a lot of time/money trying different things. Even now with current ongoing tests, it amazes me how vibes can travel.

I see people with Large BK and using the same basic bobbins and I go mmmmm, does seem a bit limited for so much bass energy/power.

Yet with a current test shown earlier, I have a large BK that has to travel through these isolation support towers I came up with for my own build compromising...

2x 8mm Alu Plates & each plate with 3 layers of isolation materials applied to the underside
2x Hard rubber isolators
2x $60 Clark Synthesis T300 isolators
2x Isolation Pads

Each plate (11"X7") is then only connecting with its support tubing via 4x M8 bolts
So this limits greatly the surface contact with the rig's main tubing frame.

This option is overkill for my own build and is about £200 for one of these towers taking into account all the used materials. I have 6 made to install but testing just the one so far.

So why would I still need a 3 step solution?
Even with all that while some vibes are much fainter, the deeper bass with more energy bandwidth is coming through. Thankfully the vibes to the floor are greatly reduced and I still have to apply the wheels and their isolation from the floor.

Now when I trace the physical contact path the vibes can only go with this custom tubing design I have, it amazes me how it can travel.

My frame design is purposely made in a way that it has L/R sections, so any vibes that travel over L/R can primarily only do so after going through the isolation tower on that side, then along bottom horizontal support tubes, to then have to go up through the adjacent isolation tower to create stereo crosstalk.

Of course vibes in the seat between L/R will travel through the seat itself but this application I went with is to help better isolate the pedals (Only 2) from stereo crosstalk issues to the level no other rig to my knowledge has done before. Its just a personal desire to improve performance with (Corners/Stereo) based effects and also help to extend the stereo in the seat with the multiple exciters directly to body zones.

 

[soberseth]

i'm looking to add some isolation to my 8020 rig as i just recently got a bkg. i see a popular option is to attach bobbins between the aluminum profiles that fit the seat and the rest of the frame. i'm concerned with the quality of most of the ones i've found while searching though. most of them don't really list any ratings for max compression or shear force.

i've found these which are rated for 125lb compression and 20lb shear. with 4 of them i'm not worried about the compression but only 20lbs of shear force doesn't seem like a lot when under heavy braking. is this something to be concerned about or will that be ok? if not i'd like to see what products others are using.

i'm also considering just putting some anti vibration material sandwiched between the profiles.

 

[blekenbleu]

So how is the piezo going to accurately enable monitoring of low frequencies, what frequency range does it support?

Plugged to a high impedance mixer input and suitably mass-loaded, piezo contact mics respond down to 20Hz,
which is as low as my exciter, amplifier and audio interfaces are useful.

Why would you be trying to do this as the operational audible sound will also be picked up?

Piezo contact mics pick up audible sound only to the extent that to whatever they are attached are picking it up;
these are solid piezo elements, without acoustic diaphragms.

What's the point of trying to deduce the frequencies the unit is generating,
when we can know by monitoring the soundcard via typical methods?

Were you aware that (at least my) DAEX32 has a null in frequency response around 360Hz?
Seemingly from internal resonance cancellations;
360Hz is otherwise a fairly useful haptic frequency..

While lacking flat frequency response, by loading with different masses,
one can fairly quickly sort response anomalies that are piezo artifacts
vs. those from exciters and structures to which exciters are attached.
I am working up documentation for use, along with some results.
Using REW along with Equalizer APO and contact piezos should, hopefully,
enable fairly automated smoothing of haptic frequency responses.

 

[stigs2cousin]

To make things even more difficult I think the seat is (mostly) not subjected to shear forces.
My rather used seat has a little bit of play which is getting worse because I use very stiff pedals.

While moving it svivels aproximately around the hip point.
So the front mounts are pulled, the rear mounts are pressed.

I´d imagine these load cases would be roughly the same for most seating positions, at least for GT stile.

The compression for the rear mounts should not be a problem, I don´t know how much tension the front mounts can hold?
On the other hand there are working rig with this kind of isolation out there, so it must be possible.
probably only aquestion of cost.

Very interested in a solution as (if and when, not decidet jet) I go tactile I have to take the neighbors into consideration.
So the isolation must be good.

MFG Carsten.

 

[Alvaro de la Orden]

Watching some YT clips, I noticed there is a lot of engine vibration when the cars hit the Pit limiter.
How could we recreate that? editing RPM effect to be very noticeable at the RPMs range when the limiter is triggered?
Engine parametric instead?

 

[Mr Latte]

Watching some YT clips, I noticed there is a lot of engine vibration when the cars hit the Pit limiter.
How could we recreate that? editing RPM effect to be very noticeable at the RPMs range when the limiter is triggered?
Engine parametric instead?

Ask people to share their effects so you can see what they do....

 

[anton_Chez]

Speaking of sharing.....

For the MQB-1, I've had a chance to start tuning tonight and making a new profile for the setup. Using the engine RPM test, I have found the following:

I can feel ALL ranges in the low to high RPM test
I can feel MOST ranges in the high to low RPM test, down to around 15hz. It starts to fade out at the 15hz test but it's still able to be felt. At 20hz it's stronger. Anything below 15hz just fades into nothing as you max the revs out.

So, there's my contribution to getting started in sharing some feeback. The BK Mini LFE we are already well aware that anything under 35hz is a big issue with piston knocking and the test only proves that yet again. So for me, I'll be sticking to the plan of engine vibes, probably some collision effects and hopefully some deceleration G-force will be sent to the single MQB-1 unit on the rear of the seat, with suspension and road effects going to the 2 Mini LFE's mounted underneath, front and rear.

The one thing I found tonight so far as well was that I really do not like the parametric engine effect. It seems to be very active throughout the entire rev range and seems to be more noise than anything useful. What I'd like to start achieving is idle and low RPM being very deep and full, with the build up through the first 2-3 gears being felt and starting to fade out, until we get to the really high RPM at redline for a given gear or just at maximum speed down a straight, having it come back in at a higher hz.

I want to be able to have deceleration G-forces come in without the engine being already applied at a similar note at the point of braking. So high hz at full speed or very high revs if your holding a shorter gear, into low hz on the same unit as the brakes are applied at full speed.

 

[Alvaro de la Orden]

Ask people to share their effects so you can see what they do....

I remember getting profiles files from Simhub Discord, you shared something over there. A year ago, more or less.
I will look into them.
I also saw your engine layer-by-layer group of effects.
Appreciated.

 

[Mr Latte]

Well, I meant to see varied things others do.
I can't even remember what transducers you own, as it's hard keeping up with what others use.

Some effects I shared were ongoing tests or to help encourage others to share their own.
Mine are not full working effects to be used (as complete) I stated this on the Discord too.
Merely at that time a W.I.P

Part of the intent with them was to get feedback (knowing what Hz they were generating) on how then people would rate them or find they operated on the transducers/installations they had.

Even when you tell people, this effect batch is for BK LFE they will try to use it on their $20 or $50 transducers. So often, they have not got a hope in feeling what was intended with the actual output that the effects really does generate on the model it was intended for or indeed that model used with specific DSP controls.

Determination:
I am confident now with my own progress with making improved engines using the Response Curve approach. Spent over 30 hours testing recently, comparing different things to increase my experience with it.

However, these new effects I came up with in all but one layer were using below 18Hz and with a fundamental frequency as low as 7Hz. So no chance people with entry-level or budget transducers can feel what these deliver.

Buttkicer in their own listed specs give the impression the response of their smallest units matches that off their largest ones. Some then are lead to believe it's really only wattage that is different. Real-world usage in tests show differently as here I am comparing both back to back.

Here is an example from some previous effects creation for RPM.
You will see the gain vary over the RPM range as different elements come in.
I can feel distinct differences in vibrations set in place for 2-4K / 5K / 6K / 7K and Max RPM but still apply my own harmonics working with the 7Hz fundamental.

AMG GT3 Tested via ACC.
Click for video.

Monitoring channel output via iPad Pro


Trying the BK Gamer with them was useless, but I am curious to see how well the Q10B handles them in comparison to the large BK. Their energy, richness and depth are very engrossing and Im boosting these frequencies below 20Hz with the DSP as well. Attempting to push the large BK to its operational limits while avoiding pang.

 

[Mr Latte]

Success With My Own Goals/Methods
Taken me a while but I finally got my hardware configured to be able to control each effect (how I wanted). Still not doing anything advanced other than routing effects to specific channels and then creating my own mix for what effects (and thier volumes) goes to any chosen output.

This is so cool though to do through the midi interface or via iPad.


Instantly mute any or all channels and adjust the effects gain on the fly.


Parametric Engine Vibes
I can't say I have seen others talk much about this effect or how to better configure it.

Simvibe has Engine Vibration & Harmonics which was popular

Simhubs Parametric engine vibration is similar to that and I believe uses 2nd and 3rd order harmonics based on the fundamental frequency being set. Also allowing the user to limit the harmonics in range to the highest Hz setting applied.

Simvibe labeled things as V4-V12 to alter what the fundamental frequency is.
Simhub does this with the sound pitch offset and it alters it quite a bit.

The user would alter this depending on the RPM range of the car. A car with 5K needs less range than a car with 15K even though the idle RPM will vary too, the range is still very different.

So users can balance this depending on what type of car they are using. Of course, these features also let the user accommodate what their own transducers can achieve regards their lowest felt frequencies. Including as mentioned, setting the highest Hz value accordingly with the upper felt limits of their transducer/exciters will manage.

This is why understanding what the users own transducer offers in response is relevant to how they should apply settings.

With this mode, you will always have the harmonics working off the set fundamental, determined by the sound pitch control. Selecting "Grainy" will add more additional noise, perhaps overtones? Not sure on the proper technical term to use is but it's a simple try with, try without to determine what you prefer as it has no actual controls.

Maybe some of this will help, but we do have control over how the harmonics are felt and can tune this if they spend time with it. Should offer a decent sensation but not too annoying if well applied.

The drawbacks I see, with harmonic-based engine effects while they can add nice enough sensations and will satisfy (enough) a lot of users. They do not let the user apply characteristics at specific RPM. Cars with similar idle and RPM ranges will all feel the same.

Regardless I will be looking into seeing how it can be best used or applied even as a background or to apply to exciters and mix in with what is done with lower bass applied via Response Curve layers. Engine effects do not have to be limited to single units or limited by the specifications/performance of a single unit.

As stated before those that have tactile that can offer 1-200Hz response are the people that can enjoy the best effects. The quality of the effects you feel is not just determined by the (closed mindset) that 4 small units on corners is the best approach.

It's very much to do with what your tactile can achieve, how/where they are installed and what effects you can then apply to get the most out of it.

For me yeah, much to still investigate, learn and try,

 

[anton_Chez]

I tried the Parametric effect again just now but this time at a much lower volume. In the profile it's set at 100% volume, but this was too active and busy while full throttle after the initial torque period coming out of slower turns. Having it set to a lower volume like 30% makes it barely noticeable, but it is still there as the revs are climbing. I tried playing with the sliders in it but found no difference in the output for some reason. I might have to have another look at it.

At least now that I've started forming my own new profile from all of the effects made available by yourself, hopefully I can continue on with it until I am done. It's always such a rabbit hole for me and now that I've removed motion I am having to incorporate more effects onto more units than I've been used to in recent years.