Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

I tried the Parametric effect again just now but this time at a much lower volume. In the profile it's set at 100% volume, but this was too active and busy while full throttle after the initial torque period coming out of slower turns. Having it set to a lower volume like 30% makes it barely noticeable, but it is still there as the revs are climbing. I tried playing with the sliders in it but found no difference in the output for some reason. I might have to have another look at it.

At least now that I've started forming my own new profile from all of the effects made available by yourself, hopefully I can continue on with it until I am done. It's always such a rabbit hole for me and now that I've removed motion I am having to incorporate more effects onto more units than I've been used to in recent years.

Any effects I already shared are now quite old. I compare them to what I am now working on and feel improvements. So certainly yes more progress has been made and will continue as I am more focused now in going deeper, looking into single effects at a time but of course now with past experience and things tried.

I don't know how others have progressed over time with their own exploration and tests but it is clear, someone with a unit like your using, if they can't feel and enjoy much of the effort put into certain effects as you highlighted a limit around 15Hz.

I may have to get the small Earthquake if I find one going cheap, to compare it myself to other units I have but it may fall somewhere between the BK Mini & BK Advance. Unfortunately, these while quite good do not let a user enjoy the very lowest bass frequencies that are crucial with some effects sensations we may want to achieve.

If you or anyone honestly wants the best richness from effects then, a large BK seems the required option. As yet I still need to try the Q10B but those are typically less popular and more expensive. 15Hz feels very different to 10Hz and as you go down more each Hz has its own character. So in some effects even changing the lowest value by a single Hz makes much more difference than it does with higher frequencies.

All I can say is my focus is to create effects to the hardware I found brings the best results.
From that we could make watered-down versions and try to tweak them but the same felt sensations possible are not going to be close.


One other point...
Keep in mind the shared low-high and high-low test may not output what you think.
Its still not ideal and flawed in some ways.

Example: ACC AMG GT3 2020
This layer has settings for 30Hz-200Hz

Yet at idle with this car, it is closer to 70Hz and progresses upto 200Hz at max rpm.

Might as well see for yourselves (click)


The point with it was that, If people give a reference to what they feel with a specific car, volumes and transducer used then I can replicate that to verify the actual Hz that IS being generated. Different cars could alter things too with their different idle RPM values.

Basically don't use it as a way to determine exactly what your transducers are outputting.
The only way of properly knowing is with visual analysis.

 

[blekenbleu]

suitably mass-loaded, piezo contact mics respond down to 20Hz

Using a more capable signal generator and more mass, piezos respond down to 13Hz.

 

[Mr Latte]

Using a more capable signal generator and more mass, piezos respond down to 13Hz.

And it enables you to do what exactly to improve effects or immersion?

 

[blekenbleu]

And it enables you to do what exactly to improve effects or immersion

One generally wants ability to measure an octave above and below frequencies of interest,
to minimize phase errors in measurements.

 

[Mr Latte]

One generally wants ability to measure an octave above and below frequencies of interest,
to minimize phase errors in measurements.

And it enables you to do what exactly to improve effects or immersion?

 

[blekenbleu]

And it enables you to do what exactly to improve effects or immersion

• tune out resonant peaks in mounted transducers
• identify locations on structures more and less liable to destructive interference at different frequencies and vice versa.
• identify frequencies for haptics that minimally couple to floors, e.g. for apartment dwellers.

 

[Mr Latte]

• tune out resonant peaks in mounted transducers
• identify locations on structures more and less liable to destructive interference at different frequencies and vice versa.
• identify frequencies for haptics that minimally couple to floors, e.g. for apartment dwellers.

Hi again....

So, all good theory perhaps, though I am not convinced.

Needs put to practice and tested with......

what transducers, mounted how and where, with what effects, with what materials in seats, what metals or what woods different construction of rigs are made from?

That's a lot of options for potential different scenarios where the findings could be different.
So offering findings with the testbed you may use might not be relevant in many other cases and with so many variables.

Professionals, that work with such things, what equipment do they use, it likely costs thousands of $ and I presume they do not use the approach your suggesting/attempting? Sorry I can't see what significant use this will be with the vast majority of peoples owned tactile or rigs.


Now just from a personal perspective of messing around with tactile as a hobbyist. I am not a qualified professional, technician, or mechanical engineer.

Resonance is easy to find with frequency sweeps, using a bell filter/curve and a decent EQ based on the user's applied crossover (if any).

A user can also feel over the rig and apply force/weight If some parts of the rig need to be better clamped down or isolated with ringing or reverberation issues. Sometimes it may be a loose bolt or fixing causing issues.

The majority of people buy into similar rigs and transducers. Now we have almost 200 pages here, yet I do not recall a single person coming along and saying they have a problem with "destructive interference" in their rig and it concerns them.

Dampening to floors, as here and other threads have shown, vibration control, sound deadening, and soundproofing is quite complicated and can be a costly exercise.

Yes, people could share and do more regards what isolation solutions that worked well for them but again, how many rigs do you see using such or how many use a combination of different solutions?

 

[Mr Latte]

@anton_Chez found this on ebay, listed as new.


Knew I shouldn't of went looking but decided to get it as cost £50 less than some places are charging.

Will let me compare how it fairs to its bigger brother or consider doing proper/better videos of comparison tests with all the different tactile I have on YT.

 

[anton_Chez]

Basically don't use it as a way to determine exactly what your transducers are outputting.
The only way of properly knowing is with visual analysis.

That's interesting. So in a hz test environment, 20hz might be really strong for the unit, but when you step into the car and have it idling, it's only using 70hz as a minimum. I'd suggest that someone without the visual feedback tools, or the knowledge or will to use them, might try a different way. Perhaps sit in the car at idle in pits, and move the range in the Simhub effect up and down the known range of the given transducer. You should be able to feel where the effect is strongest and then get an idea of where to build your effect around regarding the hz value.

I'll be putting more time into testing your 488 'final build' profile over the weekend. I'll make some changes to the hz values that I know my unit cannot reach and see how it feels. Looks like a lot of the leg work is already done for me in there regards adding suspension effects and stuff I was not using while having motion running.

Will keep you posted on more findings. I also want to try a little DSP tweaking to get the most out of the unit/s. Nothing too in depth and complicated but if I can boost a certain range and get more fleshed out feeling in the units then I may as well try it.

I'll have to go back and dig up the 'how to' you linked me to when I first was having 'issues' not knowing how to use the amp.

 

[Mr Latte]

That's interesting. So in a hz test environment, 20hz might be really strong for the unit, but when you step into the car and have it idling, it's only using 70hz as a minimum. I'd suggest that someone without the visual feedback tools, or the knowledge or will to use them, might try a different way. Perhaps sit in the car at idle in pits, and move the range in the Simhub effect up and down the known range of the given transducer. You should be able to feel where the effect is strongest and then get an idea of where to build your effect around regarding the hz value.

I'll be putting more time into testing your 488 'final build' profile over the weekend. I'll make some changes to the hz values that I know my unit cannot reach and see how it feels. Looks like a lot of the leg work is already done for me in there regards adding suspension effects and stuff I was not using while having motion running.

Will keep you posted on more findings. I also want to try a little DSP tweaking to get the most out of the unit/s. Nothing too in depth and complicated but if I can boost a certain range and get more fleshed out feeling in the units then I may as well try it.

I'll have to go back and dig up the 'how to' you linked me to when I first was having 'issues' not knowing how to use the amp.

Your unit is spec rated only up to 50Hz so that's what is also confusing and the curiosity in me decided to get one. Although it seemed accurate to the listed lowest response with 15Hz.

I think the best test I came up with was the one for Simvibe which used 9-10K RPM car.
I had it configured that the person just had to use the settings in the profile and use that car to get accurate 10Hz for each 1000RPM so a user knew 100% if they were ar 4K RPM it was 40Hz. 6K RPM it was 60Hz.

I will redo that test at some point for Simhub as the problem currently is I am testing a lot with ACC and dont think any of its cars use a 10K RPM to enable tests from 10Hz -100Hz and apply it to the RPM dial as a reference.

 

[blekenbleu]

So offering findings with the testbed you may use might not be relevant in many other cases and with so many variables

Procedures being documented and annotated may be inapplicable to some cases.
I am employing neither a wide range of audio interfaces, amplifiers nor transducers.

Professionals, that work with such things, what equipment do they use, it likely costs thousands of $
and I presume they do not use the approach your suggesting/attempting?

Of course, when I documented and conducted similar procedures professionally, calibrated equipment was preferred,
which for this would include instrumentation amplifiers and accelerometers.
Otherwise, procedures will be comparable.

Invalid results are too often obtained when employing expensive and calibrated instrumentation.
Even if e.g. Analog Devices ADXL50JH accelerometers were employed,
they would want matching and calibration to some known standards, which is where costs explode.
Industrial and academic research often involve expedience and improvisation.

Given that piezo sensors are moderately well matched (which is fairly easily assessed),
then differences observed between transducer stimuli and structural responses should be valid.

I do not recall a single person coming along and saying they have a problem with "destructive interference" in their rig

I have read reports of haptics weaker than expected,
and destructive interference (AKA standing waves) are likely implicated,
just as they are e.g. for uneven bass response in listening rooms.

I am not convinced

Certainly, what I am documenting neither should nor need be accepted on faith.
The intent is merely to describe employing relatively cheap, readily available devices and software
for improving haptics implementations by repeatable procedures.

 

[Mr Latte]

So tell us what transducers you will be testing, how you are testing them for a reference?
This is your rig right?



What isolation or dampening are you using, how is your rig for destructive interference?
If this is what you use, then I find it hard how you can give others much valuable advice on tactile or other factors involved with it based on sim rig installations.

With respect, and maybe you have another rig but this does not fill me with confidence.

 

[blekenbleu]

So tell us what transducers you will be testing, how you are testing them for a reference?

Dayton Thruster and TT25-16 pucks tested using SimHub ShakeIt, Creative SB1095, PreSonus AudioBox,
Denon AVR-3803, Soundcard Oscilloscope, Room EQ Wizard, Equalizer APO.

This is your rig right?

Right.

this does not fill me with confidence

Filling anyone with confidence is not among my goals; contributing actionable help is.
My previous isolation and interference mitigation experience is unrelated to sim rigs;
the same physics and techniques apply.
No procedures will be published which are not working for me; false starts are being noted,
and most procedures should be generally applicable. At this point, work is largely about retesting
and refining those procedures.

 

[anton_Chez]

Pretty strange they only state up to 50hz. I can feel them all the way up to 200hz and probably more. They certainly don't go dead like they do below 15hz.

 

[worms14]

Guys, does it matter what product I choose as a footplate, I want to mount the BST-1 Daytonaudio on the heels.
Thickness of 3 or 4mm to choose from
S235 sheet, stainless acid sheet, aluminum?

It will only be a footplate on vibration isolators, the pedals will be on a separate 160x40 profile

 

[RCHeliguy]

As one example, I've got two Aura Pros mounted under a piece of 1/4" aluminum.

To isolate the plate I ran an 8mm bolt with a surgical tubing sleeve through a cap, Sorbothane, than 1/8 rubber washer,
Aluminum plate, 1/8 rubber washer, Sorbothane and finally the nut is captured so it can't slap against the bottom.

The result is very quiet and I get good tactile response out of the Aura's which don't take much power.

 

[worms14]

I love seeing your shortcuts in the form of photos, amazing shots, and the possibility of tweaking Riga, my friend has it, great whatever.
Can you specify the thickness of this aluminum for feet in millimeters?
I understand that there is no Flex, and the touch sensations are excellent?

I think it's 6 millimeters

 

[RCHeliguy]

I'm using 1/4" x 6" bar or 6.35mm x 152.4 mm bar.

It does flex a little bit, but it doesn't bother me or affect my driving in any way I can tell.

 

[LasiHasi]

Hello friends of spending money,

I currently have an Onkyo TX SR 507 AV receiver left over and thought: Why not dangle some bass shakers on the Simlab rig.

The AV receiver has: 130 W/channel with 6 ohms.

The bass shakers have: Impedance 4 Ohm

After a short time came the realization: I have no idea about sound, resistors, ohms and what else there is.‍♂

Therefore I ask stupidly in the round, could I drive with the AV receiver accordingly 4x Reckhorn bs-200i and if so, how must it be wired? A corresponding extra sound card I may still have lying around, otherwise I can still order.

Have a nice evening and stay healthy

 

[blekenbleu]

I have no idea about sound, resistors, ohms and what else there is.‍

Power in Watts = resistance in Ohms times the square of current in Amperes.
Since the receiver will be limited by its ability to safely and reliably supply Amperes,
power will be reduce by the ratio of 4/6: 130*4/6 ~ 87 Watts.

Sadly, that receiver appears to lack discrete 5.1 inputs, limiting it to 2 channels e.g. from SimHub ShakeIt..