Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

This place is becoming more and more a waste of time...

 

[MaddogBC]

This place is becoming more and more a waste of time...

LOL, sry but I couldn't not read that with humour. I've worked in these situations and been the guy called to quote. It's pretty eye opening to see the lengths some people go when they're desperate for a little control. I've seen people walk away from huge investments in money and time because of things like this.

The fact he snipped back at you for voicing an enlightened opinion speaks volumes. He is right about one thing though, I bet there are a lot of lurkers who at the very least agree with you in various situations. Your exasperation with the minimal feedback and follow through you get is justified, lol makes me want to run out and test something!

 

[BKLFE]

The fact he snipped back at you for voicing an enlightened opinion

Some logical fallacies here. I did not come here to explain my lifestory and ask advice about it. In fact, I repeateadly mentioned I do not want to talk about it.

Don't you think someone who owns an apt does not know how to turn to soundproofing when faced with a situation like this? I have 200 lbs MLV on my door to shield from corridor noises. So the advice you think you are giving is nothing but pointing out the obvious.

I also know how it will go.
Next will come: Sell your house and go somewhere else.

Yeah.

I brush my hair.
I cook an omelette.
I go to mall.
I sell my house.
I buy another house.

Right.

Have you ever bought a house? Where is the guarantee that you will not come across another animal on the new one? Rinse and repeat?

I don't need advice from random people on the net who have no access to the facts and I don't need someone try to take a moral highground on something he does not know nothing about and he was not asked for in the first place. I just asked help with amps that he knows about and I did not expect such an a$$ remark.

This does not diminish all the contributions he has made on topic, but it also does not stop me from labeling him an a$$, that I did not outright do, but thought about.

Now if you care to hear about the story so you can judge properly, I am more than willing to do that. But I think that would be OT and disrespectful to OP and topic followers.

Besides, company responded, issue resolved. I also contributed, albeit small, by confirming the amp choice was right.

 

[Mr Latte]

I made it CLEAR I did not think your solution to this was to use a large BK to then try to get back at your neighbor. You may not like that but to say you got no help is not true and your attitude stinks when I merely mentioned considering soundproofing options.

Why do you think 1x Buttkicker will achieve what you intend to do over a large surface area?
Do people that build seat platforms for home cinema only use one? So I doubt a single unit will be enough to fully implement your intentions.

You were told the NX3000D was a good amp for the large BK and one that thousands of people use worldwide for not just large BK but also subwoofer usage. So it is more than tested/proven regards any nonsense you mentioned about CLASS D amps not being suitable.

Prior to using CLASS D amps, I had big heavy EP4000 and EP2500 amps that weighed a tonne.
Also, myself and others started testing these amps with Buttkickers since they appeared @2012.

Of course back then, they were based on the older styling iNuke DSP models. So sorry but you contributed nothing that we do not already know here.

In fact, some people on these forums ignore the advice given to get the NX3000D amp, buying the higher wattage models or buying models with no DSP. So I often wonder why I bother trying to guide people what to buy.

Here is a recent post I made regards the NX6000D

You also were told the NX6000D has specs beyond the wattage limit of the LFE.
However, if using dual LFE on an NX3000D which the amp will power then it can only output 900W at 4 ohms

Now the interesting part, Buttkicker probably didnt tell you that if you buy 2x Concert models instead of LFE. You will be able to run 2x of those on the NX3000D amp at the full 1500W

The reason is that, the amp lists that wattage for 2ohm loads which the Concert model is. Additionally, you can use the DSP to boost the amplitude of the lower frequencies to your own preference so the claimed tuning differences between the (LFE/Concert) models wont matter as you can boost the different Hz how you want upto +12dB.

Not that I ever tried to compare such in a usage case you propose but I would imagine 2x Concert at max 1500w would output (with the same weight of piston) more energy than 2x LFE at 900W? I am not an audio engineer or expert.

I close again by saying, what your intention will do is likely lead to more dislike for each other, trouble or violence and not stop the problem.

Call me an ass, if you want.
I must be an asshole as who else would waste their continued time, like I do on the forums here regards tactile topics.

I might as well have a moan too... As most here won't help contribute to ideas or even do requested tests with tactile. Others cant even give a "like" for help given in their own build threads and interesting things shared like the recent findings regard Simhubs "Response Curve" that nobody has ever fully explained how it can be used. Or the creative usage of a particular AU meter just shown, well these, don't even generate any response or conversation from others.

Thanks lads...
Yeah that sums up the last month or so...

 

[blekenbleu]

I must be an asshole as who else would waste their continued time, like I do on the forums here regards tactile topics.

It is maniacs like e.g. you, RCHeliguy and Andrew_WOT that nudge relative dilatants (e.g moi) to persist with puttering.

 

[Wmacky]

This place is becoming more and more a waste of time...

Please don't get discouraged again. You can be assured that lots of your information is appreciated, and has been rolled into many rigs. I think it is finally accepted that exciters with supplemental large BK's driven by NXD DSP amps, and working through simhub, is the current premier/ preferred Tactile set up, displacing the older and obsoleted chassis mode tactile!

About the response curve - I did see you mentioned discoveries of using it in different ways - Static/ HZ / DB, but I didn't see the details about how. ( did I miss it, or is there more to come?

 

[RacingMat]

Today I was playing around with a "vu meter" to show activity for different usage possibilities.

What a nice idea!

With a new car/track, I'm often frustrated to miss the wheels slipping info if the game makes not significant enough noise. This could help with a VU meter (or maybe a buzzer ?)

 

[Zolazem]

Please don't get discouraged again. You can be assured that lots of your information is appreciated, and has been rolled into many rigs. I think it is finally accepted that exciters with supplemental large BK's driven by NXD DSP amps, and working through simhub, is the current premier/ preferred Tactile set up, displacing the older and obsoleted chassis mode tactile!

Totally agree with this. I was a total newbie into this tactile stuff and in this thread i find so much information and given advise from members especially Mr. Latte, I pulled the trigger and ordered a NXD Amp + 2 BK LFE last December. I’m very happy with this setup. Without the help from Mr. Latte and others i never could do this.
So big thanks to Mr Latte and other posters and keep up the good work! Just ignore the negative people its not worth it. 99.9% of the readers on this thread appreciate the information for sure!

 

[Alvaro de la Orden]

So using SimHub to feed my dayton exciters. Cheap usual amps (Nobsound). Default effects, just adjusting volumes.
Last year the gear shift effect never missed one. Now during a single Mt Panorama lap, it´s missing more than 20. What´s the setting I have to adjust? the one about miliseconds on Simhub-Shaker-Effect profile-Gear?

 

[mjtonini]

So using SimHub to feed my dayton exciters. Cheap usual amps (Nobsound). Default effects, just adjusting volumes.
Last year the gear shift effect never missed one. Now during a single Mt Panorama lap, it´s missing more than 20. What´s the setting I have to adjust? the one about miliseconds on Simhub-Shaker-Effect profile-Gear?

I've noticed the same thing recently. Even just clicking Test in the effect does the same thing. If I lower the volume (or whatever it's called) for the effect, It stops 'missing'. I can harder/louder effects no problem, so I don't think the intesity is the issue. It almost seems like a simhub bug. But, I just noticed it last week. Looked at it a bit Sunday, and then been busy all week so haven't tested anything out since.

 

[anton_Chez]

I had the same thing with engine vibes recently. Asked Wotever and he suggested turning the gain down for a few things as the whole signal may have been clipping. I haven't had engine vibes cut out since I did it. I think it was linked to gear change as well so they could be related.

 

[mjtonini]

I had the same thing with engine vibes recently. Asked Wotever and he suggested turning the gain down for a few things as the whole signal may have been clipping. I haven't had engine vibes cut out since I did it. I think it was linked to gear change as well so they could be related.

I did rework my setup, and the ones with gear change now may be different. Yeah. the 'gain'. Turning that down did make it work, but it used to handle on full gain. I'm still mid-tweaking so I could have screwed something up. Hopefully, I'll get time tonight to try things out.

 

[Alvaro de la Orden]

So it´s better to turn gain down within the software rather than the volume from the amp.

Another question regarding shakers for the pedal plate. What would you install there? Right now I have a single Rockwood shaker. Should I install 1/2 daytons instead?
The effect I choose it´s RPM or Engine. I don´t want impacts/vibration/road feeling over there, I prefer that into the seat.

 

[Mr Latte]

Please don't get discouraged again. You can be assured that lots of your information is appreciated, and has been rolled into many rigs. I think it is finally accepted that exciters with supplemental large BK's driven by NXD DSP amps, and working through simhub, is the current premier/ preferred Tactile set up, displacing the older and obsoleted chassis mode tactile!

About the response curve - I did see you mentioned discoveries of using it in different ways - Static/ HZ / DB, but I didn't see the details about how. ( did I miss it, or is there more to come?

We all have things going on in our lives, it's not always an easy ride and these forums can be a bit of an escape. Having a bit of a hard time at the moment but I think now, it's too late and time to concede with this rare interest I have and lack to get others with similar enthusiasm.

I offer several ideas here, be it the exciter concept or other ways to take tactile further. Give help when I can but I am at my wits end. Stepped back from the forums for several weeks a couple of times last year and think it's time to do it again.

It must be me, I can be awkward, moody, overbearing, or aggressive.

I get annoyed because....

We have forums with a load of guys with tactile, they race on various sims, yet they won't share their own effects, they won't say, let's work together with going through one effect at a time to offer alternative ideas/preferences with created effects. Hey, here's what I like, what do you think?. They won't help each other to discover different approaches, find the limitations and apply more creativity in effect creation or better installations and ways to get much more from this method of immersion.

Some are willing to buy into shared concepts for installations to go beyond a single transducer or typical limitations with standard installs. Yet, hold on how good are the effects they are using? How much are they enjoying or not enjoying it? How are they using crossover? How are they combining both the low bass and additional detailing capabilities of the exciters? What way do they like to output different effects to the exciters? Do they use harmonic based layers, multi-effect layers or more just single tones?

Some have their own approaches, I don't always agree with their implementations, thats fine. Yeah, I can be a bit overbearing with my own opinions or views. Yet others can get annoyed when challenged or then throw personal insults. Rather than illustrate more or why their approach is good or worth doing. I stand by my own recommendations based on tests done not just because it's what I bought into or wanted to just do. Lots of things I tried did not work as well as intended or I wanted more from it. It's one reason my own build has been such a journey/process.

People ask, people do, often what they like but they don't offer very much feedback or help when it comes to supporting each other with what is a complicated topic. I have had enough of trying in failed threads, and why should I care really anymore anyways. Been let down too many times or ignored but understand not everyone has the same passion for this. I should just focus on my own build, my ideas, or intentions with effects and keep myself more to myself.


So regards the RPM Response Curve...
I just spent the last 2 days testing effects ideas that I couldn't quite get to work right before.
So with the recent findings for the response curve, I applied some of those ideas again.

Now that I am understanding its operation better, I can have individual layers frequencies rise or fall for "specific targeted RPM" for a unique feel. Also, apply a static frequency to increase in gain for a specific RPM range.

In a simple explanation, not have just an engine drone that goes from low-high Hz and fizzles out. Or one that is just boring background fuzz.

Instead, something I've wanted to do for a while. Apply engine character-based effects that allow super-low Hz to bring a substantial surge in energy as individually controlled immersion elements for key purposes.

Example via AMG GT3:
1-3K Engine tick over and engrossing low rev inertia
Strong satisfying torque build 5-6K
RPM Yellow Light, felt sensation with rising engine strain
RPM Red Light felt sensation, additional strain feel to max limit
Energetic rev surge blip shifting down between gears

Do we want a, strong low bass sensation for max rpm or it to fade/cut out as a felt max rpm indicator? Do we want a Ferrari to feel different to an AMG or Aston, Personally yeah I do even if it's not accurate.

So, got to say I'm chuffed with the last 2 days tests. Here is a brilliant responding engine feel with incredibly low energy as the car comes down from high speed and drops in RPM for 2nd gear corners. Then you feel it rise under acceleration and the energy build as those selected peak RPM characteristics come through.

All with only 3-4 layers using from 2Hz upwards and not going above 30Hz in settings.
Additional layer elements could be done for Exciters/TST to extend the higher RPM more. This was just a trial for seeing how low bass with high energy could be applied for a unique feel.

I was needing to test part of the isolation on my own build. Thankfully it's working well but I compared the large BK via Behringer amp with DSP to using the same effects with the BK2 Gamer and its own amp and well, in comparison it's a joke and was rather pathetic as none of the energy or sensation the effects are really generating is noticed. This is the problem with creating effects for specific units' performances/abilities and trying them on others, not able to deliver them.

It highlights clearly to me how most people that use tactile are missing out so much but then they won't try to experiment, share or develop a better understanding in effects creation. Some I guess are just happy enough to make do with basic effects and that's part of my own problem.

I want more, much more....

 

[blekenbleu]

I want more, much more....

One issue is probably that, as with early audiophiles,
few others have yet to experience what you are pioneering.
Extending that analogy, many audiophiles still find setup challenging
and are often defensive about it.

FWIW, my engine haptics are enabled only near idle and redline
(largely to confirm ShakeIt is working),
and G-force haptics were moved to harness tensioners,
leaving pucks and exciter to deliver only wheels slip and wheels lock,
with engine feedback while driving by audio.
Refining those haptics' quality would presumably enable better (and more complex) information transfer..
VR's immersion is more easily imagined and immediately accepted (or rejected, as may be),
while immersive audio (and presumably haptics) involve more diligence to appreciate.
Not to mention, conventions for communicating visual experiences are generally more established.

 

[fjskmdl]

After reading alot of posts in this thread, i want to start using tactile.
My tought was to start with:
- 4 or 6 Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4 exciters mounted to the back of the chair
- behringer NX3000D

in a later stage i would want to mount a large Buttkicker under the chair.

I am using a simlab p1x 8020 alu rig and a sparco r100 racing seat (no hardshell)

1) Main problem: is it possible to add the exciters to the seat textile with some kind of 3M material and have a decent result to get me started? ( may replace the seat with a hard shell seat in the future)

2) When replacing the seat, what would be a great model so i am sure i can easily add tactile to it? (budget 250-300euro max)
I was looking at this model: LCD PRO-DRIFT
It has a hard shell but i do not know about the curvature in the back and the sides to stick the exciters to.
When adding the buttkicker, i do not want to drill holes in the seat itself.

3) Does anyone have a good soundcard model suggestion to use?
4) if you could give me the correct cabling i need to buy to make this work, would be helpful.

 

[Wmacky]

After reading alot of posts in this thread, i want to start using tactile.
My tought was to start with:
- 4 or 6 Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4 exciters mounted to the back of the chair
- behringer NX3000D

in a later stage i would want to mount a large Buttkicker under the chair.

I am using a simlab p1x 8020 alu rig and a sparco r100 racing seat (no hardshell)

1) Main problem: is it possible to add the exciters to the seat textile with some kind of 3M material and have a decent result to get me started? ( may replace the seat with a hard shell seat in the future)

2) When replacing the seat, what would be a great model so i am sure i can easily add tactile to it? (budget 250-300euro max)
I was looking at this model: LCD PRO-DRIFT
It has a hard shell but i do not know about the curvature in the back and the sides to stick the exciters to.
When adding the buttkicker, i do not want to drill holes in the seat itself.

3) Does anyone have a good soundcard model suggestion to use?
4) if you could give me the correct cabling i need to buy to make this work, would be helpful.

Good start! I have gone with this new standard, of 6 exciters on the back, one Large BK on the seat bottom, and one at the pedal tray, and I'm very pleased. I believe it to be the best setup for a reasonable cost.


The NX3000D is a great Idea for a couple large BK's but not the exciters. You would be much better off powering them with this.

Behringer Europower EPQ304 Power Amplifier

4-channel Power Amplifier, 75W Peak/ch at 4 Ohms, with Built-in Limiters, Accelerated Transient Response technology, 1U rackmount chassis

www.sweetwater.com

or a few of these.

Fosi Audio TB10A 2 Channel Stereo Audio Amplifier with Power Supply for sale online | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Fosi Audio TB10A 2 Channel Stereo Audio Amplifier with Power Supply at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

As for your seat - You can experiment, but best results will come from using a hard shell seat back.

I went with a budget NRG hard backed seat here in the US, $200, and was very pleased with it. I think there is a similar budget option in the EU? Bride?


For cabling you must first lock in on what amps you will buy! Connectors will vary depending on specific amps choices.

 

[fjskmdl]

Thank you for the reply.

Since i am planning on adding a large buttkicker later on, would u still recommend buying the EPQ304? Or would i have to buy the NX3000D as a supplement once i add a buttkicker. (was hoping i could do this with one amp)
Also does the seat shell has to be completely flat?

 

[Wmacky]

Thank you for the reply.

Since i am planning on adding a large buttkicker later on, would u still recommend buying the EPQ304? Or would i have to buy the NX3000D as a supplement once i add a buttkicker. (was hoping i could do this with one amp)
Also does the seat shell has to be completely flat?

The NX3000D only has 2 channels, so you would have to buy 4 of them! $$$$$$$$ Also, they are too powerful for the Exciters 1000W > 50w Pop!

You will need to purchase 1 NX3000D just for the BK ('s), but you can use the less powerful / less expensive amps for the exciters!

so you would need:

For 1 or 2 BK's - 1 NX3000D
For 6 Exicters - 1 EPQ304 + 1 Fosi amp ( or 3 Fosi amps)


Here you can see the amps I bought for this same setup ( with 2 BK LFE's)

 

[anton_Chez]

Example via AMG GT3:
1-3K Engine tick over and engrossing low rev inertia
Strong satisfying torque build 5-6K
RPM Yellow Light, felt sensation with rising engine strain
RPM Red Light felt sensation, additional strain feel to max limit
Energetic rev surge blip shifting down between gears

THIS sounds EPIC. And something I've really wanted to feel from engine vibes for ages. Unfortunately for me I just haven't got the time to sit there endlessly tuning something to achieve that. I've been using your quite enjoyable engine vibes from a while ago and haven't really touched anything within the profile since. I now have that larger unit so those low revs coming out of a hairpin for instance, would feel REALLY good if we can get the hz to drop really low, or at least a lot lower than I was previously capable of, and feel the rise from low RPM up to redline, as you describe in the quote above. Some separation between the characteristics through the rev range and maybe a dulling of the in between range, where the engine is sort of in its "normal" operating rev range, would add to the overall effect as well as you would experience more differentiation between the ranges and not just "endless buzz" so you aptly put it.

Really want to see how this works in more detail. I STILL have not had the chance to tune my Mini LFE's to the road effects and basically have been running the Earthquake unit with the old engine vibe profile AS IS, just to have something running while I race.