Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[EsxPaul]

In your case, you would have more control with advanced DSP so you dont really need it being used in Simhub. I would set a crossover slope that limits the exciters to come in around mid 30Hz but let it peak at around 50Hz. Then use PEQ to cut a little the 40Hz and maybe bosst a little the 50-60Hz.
Its personal preference but this lets you tweak the output character of the unit, just that we want to sometimes lower a unit's peak output for certain frequencies and help feel or slightly boost some others.

Most DSP works in similar ways if you look on Youtube you will get guides to help. You generally determine the type of filter and slope range to use, but then also how steep the curve is applied. This can be like a gentle or gradual slope or it may be like a cliff edge. You do this by altering the dB of the filter but also with how much gain you may be applying with the curve and what your target peak or slope you want. The visual graphics show whats happening.

Ive not yet got to look at the t.tracks unit as Ive been busy with my own build.

For testing with proper DSP controls, one thing to try is to create what we call a "bandbass" filter.
This is creating a small range of Hz and being able to shift it up/down over the frequency range. This way you only feel whats in the range at the frequencies you place it.

We do this to tune the PEQ

For example this lets you set what you feel within the crossover/created. So lets imagine you only wanted to feel the output of 135-185Hz to determine what that 50Hz range is bringing and how you might want to apply PEQ for this range to improve its felt detail.

You can do the same with any frequencies to only feel like in this example a 50Hz range and then tune different low/mid/high bands for the units you are powering.

Thanks for the explanation

Up untill now I've only gotten to setting very basic high and low pass filters in the NX and t.racks software to give me some protection. I have never ventured into the PEQ section at all as I don't want to turn dials without knowing what I'm up to.

I have heard bandpass being mentioned quite a few times in the YouTube videos I've seen so I'll go and rewatch those to see if I can better grasp the concept and move forward.

 

[Mr Latte]

@hershann

The crossover in Simhub (I believe) applies to all channels on the card, so its not ideal if you have different types/models of units on that card as they all will be controlled with that set crossover.

It is possible (I believe) to use a different soundcard and then apply to it a different crossover for that card. So ideally for some people they may be better to place exciters on a card with their own suited crossover settings and then other units, if more powerful and with potentially quite different performance characteristics have those use their own set crossover.

 

[hershann]

@hershann

The crossover in Simhub (I believe) applies to all channels on the card, so its not ideal if you have different types/models of units on that card as they all will be controlled with that set crossover.

It is possible (I believe) to use a different soundcard and then apply to it a different crossover for that card. So ideally for some people they may be better to place exciters on a card with their own suited crossover settings and then other units, if more powerful and with potentially quite different performance characteristics have those use their own set crossover.

I may switch to all exciters front and back - 2 exciters in series per channel - they seem to give better performance than the base units

 

[Mr Latte]

Well almost 150 pages...

Build Update Teasers:


Adding Your Own Flair?
With my own w.i.p for building a rig frame, as mentioned previously, it aims to be creative or help inspire others. I wanted something more stylish too than just another 8020 rig but to bring together combined sensory activity with feeling in the tactile, high-quality audio and visual enhancements to a new level that I have not seen done before...

Here is a glimpse to the direction I am going.
Recent work has been adding cool lighting (Phillips Hue) and implementing lower-tier supports for the dual chassis, upwards firing soundbars. Each 15kg soundbar contains over 40 drivers that can position the sound where I want it to reflect in the room and thus will fully encompass the user allowing for a user-defined sound field. These will be partnered with 4x 12" tube-subwoofers being installed at the corners adding much more grunt to engine immersion and the sensation of being in a race car. The advantage is that it doesn't need to be loud to sound mighty or powerful in the presence it will bring.

Its been a lot of work coming up with a solution to fit it all in and keep the rig still compact at only 65" long. The seat and pedal sections will be placed on upper tiers with the custom isolation the next phase to add to the build.

Shaking Things Up
&
Not Just With Tactile












(Click For VIdeo/Audio)
​

 

[McClusky]

Mr Latte, that is a work of art! Kudos! (I like the pipe/tube that looks like exhaust side pipes, don't burn your leg )

 

[Mr Latte]

Mr Latte, that is a work of art! Kudos! (I like the pipe/tube that looks like exhaust side pipes, don't burn your leg )

Hah yes, thanks for the comments, still some way to go but its quite an extensive build not just in the tactile it will use and I suppose brings a certain amount of design flare.

 

[Mr Latte]

Anyone else noticed that very few rigs seem to use an Earthquake Q10B?
Perhaps somebody owns one, or has seen images of someone's rig with it installed?

Maybe the lack of them in the sim community is that they cost quite a bit more than a Buttkicker but are very hard to gain a relevant performance comparison with, or if indeed they are a worthy purchase over the more popular BK units?

It has bugged me that it was one transducer unit I had never self-experienced and I realised I hadn't mentioned that I recently got a sweet price on an EarthQuake Q10B unit (Amazon), even though I've not installed it yet.

It is very hard to find any in-depth comparisons on these for "Home Cinema" never mind "Sim Rigs" or videos regards tests/opinions and how well it handles the lowest frequencies?

Also, much of the info/discussions on forums determining how well the Q10B performs to others are quite old posts and do not actually cover all of the main contenders I show below and we would want to compare with.

One of the things my own rig build thread will cover (if I ever get it started).
Is to highlight the pros/cons of each when being used with Simhub tone generation.




In fairness as to why such comparisons are hard to find and none, I can see anywhere with these particular 4 units. Its quite understandable too, when looking at the prices, as new these 4 (pro/user) units would come in around £1500+ before even considering amplification.

So I am very curious how this Q10B fits in for its slam/speed and usable frequency range.

 

[DM77]

Anyone else noticed that very few rigs seem to use an Earthquake Q10B?
Perhaps somebody owns one, or has seen images of someone's rig with it installed?

Maybe the lack of them in the sim community is that they cost quite a bit more than a Buttkicker but are very hard to gain a relevant performance comparison with, or if indeed they are a worthy purchase over the more popular BK units?

So it has bugged me that it was one transducer unit I had never self-experienced and I realised I hadn't mentioned that I recently got a sweet price on an EarthQuake Q10B unit (Amazon), even though I've not installed it yet.

It is very hard to find any in-depth comparisons on these for "Home Cinema" never mind "Sim Rigs" or videos regards tests/opinions and how well it handles the lowest frequencies?

Also, much of the info/discussions on forums determining how well the Q10B performs to others are quite old posts and do not actually cover all of the main contenders I show below and we would want to compare with.

So, one of the things my own rig build thread will cover (if I ever get it started).
Is to highlight the pros/cons of each when being used with Simhub tone generation.




In fairness as to why such comparisons are hard to find, that's quite understandable too, as new due to being the more (pro/premium) models these 4 units would come in around £1500+ before even considering amplification.

So I am very curious how this fits in for its slam/speed and usable frequency range.

Me and my wife are looking into getting something set up for home cinema hooked up to our sofa, and I did have a loot at the EQ stuff online briefly, but I thought it might just be a Buttkicker imitator. I don't really trust Amazon reviews as the products and reviews are all mixed together most of the time, Amazon is flooded with cheap chinese crap, and I think most people reviewing kit on Amazon don't know what they are really talking about.

And then there is the issue where a lot of products get 1 star reviews because they are damaged on arrival, so you get nervous, but then its obvious people will do more reviews when stuff is broken. Then there are the 1 star reveiws from people who just make bad purchasing decisions.

I've not used one, and I dont know anyone who has either unfortunately.

 

[blekenbleu]

I’m guessing I’m in the minority of having a seat that I cannot properly install exciters/transducers on or at least install them easily. So for people in the same boat can someone give an opinion if installing exciters in a cushion to sit on and/or to lean on (for the back) will give the same feedback as if they were installed in the seat? I’m not sure how vibrations travel through material or objects or if sitting directly on exciters/transducers give too much of a direct feeling (do the vibrations need to be dampened or spread out before reaching the body?)

I did post that I bought a kit from Sim Racing Studios that included a ShakeSeat with 4 25w-16 Dayton pucks inside but I returned it as it was uncomfortable because of the hardness of my G-Seats seat. But I did like the feedback it provided whether it was realistic or not (Note: The kit also had a ShakeBack that touched the lower back and that was comfortable). My hope is to find small but powerful exciters that will be more comfortable to sit on (that does not sound right) than the Dayton pucks that are 25.4mm thick.

An SRS ShakeSeat cushion is being used with generic audio amplifiers and PC motherboard 6 channel DAC.
https://blekenbleu.github.io/pedals/#shakeseat
Engine vibration felt fairly credible, but that is now tweaked to energize mostly at idle,
for confirming ShakeIt operation before leaving the pits. An EVA foam floor tile cut to fit improves comfort:

Seating position on the pad shifted by an inch strongly affects comfort and feedback.
Instead of realism, ShakeSeat and ShakeIt are intended to proxy for G-forces.
ShakeIt "WHEELS SLIP" feedback seems mostly too late and omnidirectional to help.
Neither ACCELERATION nor DECELERATION include lateral effects;
learning how to implement lateral G-forces by CUSTOM EFFECT is next...

 

[McClusky]

An SRS ShakeSeat cushion is being used with generic audio amplifiers and PC motherboard 6 channel DAC.
https://blekenbleu.github.io/pedals/#shakeseat
Engine vibration felt fairly credible, but that is now tweaked to energize mostly at idle,
for confirming ShakeIt operation before leaving the pits. An EVA foam floor tile cut to fit improves comfort:

Seating position on the pad shifted by an inch strongly affects comfort and feedback.
Instead of realism, ShakeSeat and ShakeIt are intended to proxy for G-forces.
ShakeIt "WHEELS SLIP" feedback seems mostly too late and omnidirectional to help.
Neither ACCELERATION nor DECELERATION include lateral effects;
learning how to implement lateral G-forces by CUSTOM EFFECT is next...

Thanks for sharing, if my seat wasn't so stiff I would have kept mine

 

[DM77]

Is anyone having issues with their Dayton DAEX32EP-4's not adhering to dual lock? I peeled off the protective seal from the dual lock and the Dayton and stuck them together, but gravity is pulling them off, specially the ones I mounted in the lumbar area of the seat. The ones I mounted in the thigh area are mostly behaving so far. I'm gonna have to resort to super glue soon.

The dual lock has stuck to the seat leather completely fine, so I dont know if its just an issue with the 3M adhesive Dayton are using?

 

[Mr Latte]

Is anyone having issues with their Dayton DAEX32EP-4's not adhering to dual lock? I peeled off the protective seal from the dual lock and the Dayton and stuck them together, but gravity is pulling them off, specially the ones I mounted in the lumbar area of the seat. The ones I mounted in the thigh area are mostly behaving so far. I'm gonna have to resort to super glue soon.

The dual lock has stuck to the seat leather completely fine, so I dont know if its just an issue with the 3M adhesive Dayton are using?

Ideally, the whole concept was shared in using a suitable seat that has some form of solid back as whats the point buying the hardware, doing all this with a seat that won't properly deliver the vibrations? It defeats the intended purpose of trying to deliver multiple sensations effectively into the body.

Honestly, is worth considering selling the seat you have and put the money towards either a more suitable one. Note that many bucket seats are quite slim/tight-fitting but some will come in wider sizes. Or a sports recliner based model as an option but with a solid back, which may be harder to find.

A good seat will last you for years.

Good Selection
4-8 exciters on a seat and combined with at least one BK can give really good multi-effect immersion.

 

[DM77]

Ideally, the whole concept was shared in using a suitable seat that has some form of solid back as whats the point buying the hardware, doing all this with a seat that won't properly deliver the vibrations? It defeats the intended purpose of trying to deliver multiple sensations effectively into the body.

Honestly, is worth considering selling the seat you have and put the money towards either a more suitable one. Note that many bucket seats are quite slim/tight-fitting but some will come in wider sizes. Or a sports recliner based model as an option but with a solid back, which may be harder to find.

A good seat will last you for years.

Good Selection
4-8 exciters on a seat and combined with at least one BK can give really good multi-effect immersion.

My intended plan is to replace this rig or at least the seat with something closer to the concept, but I wanted to expand my existing tactile setup first as my funds are limited. It also made more sense to me to get more tactile, instead of saving for months for a new seat, and more months for the tactile and possibly discover I don't like it, or can't make it work out, or the expense wasn't worth the results.

This way I got a cheap Nobsound amp a perfectly affordable pair of Dayton exciters, and tried out the mounting points on the existing seat, and it does function - albeit not perfectly and not 100% efficiently.

Now I have the Dayton's and the Behringer amplification I'm fully sold on the concept, and it's ultimately worth changing my seat to make this work correctly. Plus I'm certiin the life of my existing seat is being reduced by me using it a lot more now I'm also sat in it all day for work :-(

I also wanted to expand my existing setup without having to resort to what I saw people doing 2 years ago, with BK units at all 4 corners of their rig. This feels like a much better plan.

Thanks for the link, I've been looking googling seats recently and I think I did end up on that website, but being a complete novice in this area I was having problems working out what's decent, whats not, and whats overpriced.

 

[Mr Latte]

The main thing is to avoid someone spending a fair bit of money or hassle on different solutions to mount/attach to a seat that still won't be ideal anyways. These days it's much easier to spend more money on a racing wheel rim or indeed pedals than on a decent seat.

Bargins do come on on the members market as well as on ebay so yeah worth keeping an eye on things.
Alot of my rigs hardware is found bargains, even my own seat was a trade show demonstrator with £400 off its normal price.

 

[DM77]

The main thing is to avoid someone spending a fair bit of money or hassle on different solutions to mount/attach to a seat that still won't be ideal anyways. These days it's much easier to spend more money on a racing wheel rim or indeed pedals than on a decent seat.

Bargins do come on on the members market as well as on ebay so yeah worth keeping an eye on things.
Alot of my rigs hardware is found bargains, even my own seat was a trade show demonstrator with £400 off its normal price.

Yeah I get what you mean. I knew in the back of my head this seat wasn't ideal for the task, but I quite often jump in and think "I'll sort out the issues later" and the thought of spending the money without an ideal solution kinda helps me justify the upgrade to a better seat or a replacement rig which has been on the back-burner for a while but something I keep thinking about

I'm at the point I just want to strip down this whole setup and rebuild it again, but this time with more experience and a better rig and some better cable management. I'm also interested to see how a solid seat feels compared to this leather one, and now I'll be able to get that comparison.

 

[DiLFe]

Well that was a lengthy read. Started on page 80, but eventually reached this point.

I think I'll start with 8 exciters and 2x 4-channel Douk Audio amplifier. This will get med up and running and give me flexibility to try out different effects at different places on my rig. I'll at least add one BK Consert or LFE to my seat in the near future. Have to run some tests and see if 6 exciters is enough on the seat. If so, then I might add two exciters somewhere else (e.g. shifter). I'll continue with tactile for pedals when I'm happy with my seat.

I guess the next step is to make the initial purchase list.

 

[FlikenFlaken24]

Got my exciters today, thinking about where should i put them. There is not too much choice on the seat, because its a regular car seat. First i tried to use fasteners to test out things. There is almost zero flat surface to use the vhb. On the other hand i can definintely can use the adhesive on the pedals, not where i originaly planned (back on the pedal) because thats not flat neither, but as in the pictures. What do you guys think?

 

[Mr Latte]

Exciters are intended for turning objects into speakers, what we are doing with them here with Simhub is feeding them only the bass frequencies from their full range frequency capability. Using them as bass/shakers due to the ability to easily place them in regions we cannot place traditional tactile transducers. Best results with them, will likely come by using solid materials that can transfer the vibrations to the intended body location.

Ive not personally tried them with pedals and that might be interesting how they work with individual pedals and maybe a BK for lower frequencies. I plan to use a BK and TST per pedal, so why I have not attempted the exciters with pedal or foot plates.

Real car seats are not ideal to direct the bass energy to the desired body location. They are a mass of metal frame and soft materials allowing the energy to flow over a wide area with no control to divert its energy directly. Some of you are totally missing the point of how/why these are recommended and trying to do your own things with them. Good luck with that but it's not likely going to let you experience these in the way intended with the shared concept.

The intention and recommendation for these is with the most commonly used bucket type seat or a hardback sports recliner, or aluminum-based seat. These can let the user place the exciter directly at the intended location only millimeters between the back/sides of the seat and the users body region.

With this we can then place effects directly to body regions, which you can't do with other software like Simvibe or SSW and have direct control of different effects to an individual or multiple channels with such level of features Simhub offers. Typically a Simvibe CM install would have 2 rear directional based channels and some may of added an EM mono channel for RPM etc, With this shared concept we now have upto 4 stereo channels if desired for multichannel tactile in the seat but letting the user apply whatever effects they want, how they want, where they want in the seat.

 

[FlikenFlaken24]

Exciters are intended for turning objects into speakers, what we are doing with them here with Simhub is feeding them only the bass frequencies from their full range capability. Using them as bass/shakers due to the ability to easily place them in regions we cannot place traditional tactile transducers. Best results with them, will likely come by using solid materials that can transfer the vibrations to the intended body location.

Ive not personally tried them with pedals and that might be interesting how they work with individual pedals and maybe a BK for lower frequencies. I plan to use a BK and TST per pedal, so why I have not attempted the exciters with pedal or foot plates.

Real car seats are not ideal to direct the bass energy to the desired body location. They are a mass of metal frame and soft materials allowing the energy to flow over a wide area with no control to divert its energy directly. Some of you are totally missing the point of how/why these are recommended and trying to do your own things with them. Good luck with that.

The intention and recommendation for these is with the most commonly used bucket type seat or a hardback sports recliner, or aluminum-based seat. These can let the user place the exciter directly at the intended location only millimeters between the back/sides of the seat and the users body region.

With this we can then place effects directly to body regions, which you can't do with other software like Simvibe or SSW and have direct control of multiple channels with such level of features Simhub offers.

Well at the moment i dont have a bucket seat to use, that is further down the list. The main reason is why i want these is to use the wheel lock effect on the brakes. First i thought about a rumble motor but some of the guys here had the idea to use an exciter instead. In the mean time im trying to make the most out of this. The bucket seat will be optimal i get it, and i will buy one if i have the money, if im lucky even this year, but next year for sure. Until that i have to use this. :/

 

[Mr Latte]

Well at the moment i dont have a bucket seat to use, that is further down the list. The main reason is why i want these is to use the wheel lock effect on the brakes. First i thought about a rumble motor but some of the guys here had the idea to use an exciter instead. In the mean time im trying to make the most out of this. The bucket seat will be optimal i get it, and i will buy one if i have the money, if im lucky even this year, but next year for sure. Until that i have to use this. :/

It would be interesting to see and get peoples own feedback on how well they work with pedals. They should be able to operate better than Fanatec type motor sensations or alternatives and with more control using tactile for creating the sensation of the effects being used. We also do not have a motor spinning up with audio but really has their been a personal study or development by someone trying different options and the pros/cons?

The exciters would not need to be directly attached to a pedal.They could be stuck to a mild aluminum strip (bent shaped) that then makes contact with the pedal and would also act as a mechanical leverage/amplifier to help increase the sensation it produces in the pedal. Not seen anyone try such though but thats what Id suggest to try.

Seats that will not give direct transition of the vibes to specific body regions will then not likely be that "exciting" regards the tactile they provide. Worth a go but I dont want people to spend the money and be disappointed as when installed as recommended they are excellent for immersion and even more when teamed up with BK units.