Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[John Foster]

Hi guys. After dancing around the tactile thing for a year or more, I finally ordered some stuff to get started yesterday and today took delivery of the NX3000. However, I think I may have screwed up in not getting the DSP version. So my first question is: am I able to use this amp? Or should I be begging the supplier to take it back and swap for the 3000D?

 

[Moonmachine]

Thank you Moonmachine & Mr Latte for the helpful advice. I've double checked and gearshift high priority wasn't/isn't checked.

I'll start again with only rpms on the Exiters, only speed on the large BKs and see where that leads me today

I cant be the first to admit it’s frustrating and baffling. In these situations it’s often my stubbornness that persists!

I wiped clean and started again last night. I have the large BK‘s set as front and rear on one sound card, the rest are set as multi 8 channels on my other sound card. I think ideally I would like another sound card set to corners.
Today It feels like I am getting somewhere, a slow process but would be a waste If I didn’t get it at least close to where I am happy (ish).

I also recognise that I have no idea where I would be without the information here especially from Mr Latte.

 

[Mr Latte]

Thank you Moonmachine & Mr Latte for the helpful advice. I've double checked and gearshift high priority wasn't/isn't checked.

I'll start again with only rpms on the Exiters, only speed on the large BKs and see where that leads me today

What car or sim, or is it an issue in general?

Copy the layer and the settings it has, now try the copy but lower the (debouncing delay) and (response filter) compare with each effect (original /copy) one at a time on/off.
See if that helps.

 

[ncornelisse]

I can find much info about the bass shakers but not much about the connection from the soundcard to the 5.1 amp.
Do I need one 3,5 mm cable?

I want to connect a Buttkicker Gamer 2 under the seat and 4 bass shakers at each corner of my 8020 rig.
My second soundcard is an internal Audigy 5.1.

 

[Dan Costa]

I can find much info about the bass shakers but not much about the connection from the soundcard to the 5.1 amp.
Do I need one 3,5 mm cable?

I want to connect a Buttkicker Gamer 2 under the seat and 4 bass shakers at each corner of my 8020 rig.
My second soundcard is an internal Audigy 5.1.

Your amp has 5.1 analog Multichannel input? If so, you need 3 of these (for 6 channels. For 4, you need 2 cables).

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi guys. After dancing around the tactile thing for a year or more, I finally ordered some stuff to get started yesterday and today took delivery of the NX3000. However, I think I may have screwed up in not getting the DSP version. So my first question is: am I able to use this amp? Or should I be begging the supplier to take it back and swap for the 3000D?

Grab a cuppa

We looked at EQ APO over a year ago but back then it was causing issues with certain soundcards and trying to use multiple channels all with their own crossover and EQ settings. It might have been improved or fixed but another factor is that I'm not sure if you can make it work with multiple sound cards at the same time? @Ormy

Not everyone has to follow the recommendations in the forums here but we have seen this year quite a few people want to go with the BK/Exciter combo. So that can take you beyond a single soundcard. It is a much better performing configuration than the traditional 4 corners approach. Talked about many times on here why that is.

So if wanting to go that approach it may well be that EQ APO is limited to working on a single card (assuming its issues have been fixed). Maybe we have someone fully using a 5.1 or7.1 card with it and can shed some light on it? For some it may still be viable.

As for the amp, yes I would recommend still having the DSP version as it also offers wattage protection and is quite easy to learn how to use. Also as many BK owners have these amps its not hard as a community to share settings with the amps tuned for specific models of units. You can easily then fine tune the amp settings to help reduce reverb (installation-specific issue).

Once you have nice tuned settings all you need to do is power up the amp and the last memory used preset is loaded. So its very much set and forget once configured to your liking. To get the most out of the large BK we limit the soundcard output so the AMP not the soundcard is then using a crossover filter combination as the DSP on the amp controls the input level and output amplification process. We dont want too hot of an input level (like a soundcard at max volume) going into the amp prior to the amps own input level adjustments (front knobs on these amps) as the actual primary amplification control is in the crossover settings.

Tests have been conducted that push the LFE & Concert to their limits especially with under 20Hz response being greatly enhanced over a typical amps output or something someone would have to spend a lot of time trying to configure in EQ APO as well as balancing the settings used in it with the amp's volume and this may vary if people are using different amps.

Now, the best or most professional option for control and DSP is using an audio interface and route all the channels into one of those but this is...

A) more expensive
B) requires experience with audio and using DAW type software
C) more user learning curve but with greater control and monitoring

If you planned going that route with DAW software of have an iPad then you could save money on the amps with the non DSP models. Yet it will cost much more for the advantages it brings. Regards the interface, cables and software plugins

We want a balance of control, with ease of use and at the same time find effects we can all create/share/enjoy on hardware thats well configured and only needs minor tweaking when it is configured.

Most users have the amps with the DSP and Im not sure they want the hassle of learning EQ APO and certinaly not the more complexed route with an audio interface.

 

[ncornelisse]

Thank

Your amp has 5.1 analog Multichannel input? If so, you need 3 of these (for 6 channels. For 4, you need 2 cables).

Thank you, helped me a lot

 

[Rostovic]

Hi ,
Started with tactile a little over a year ago with a BK Gamer 2 , using simhub as software .
After reading al these threads on RD on tactile , witch have been very helpfull , i decided to buy a NX1000D and started with 2 reckhorns BS200i , plan was to replace them in time with 2 BK Advance .
So bought my first BK Advance , installed it yesterday .
First impressions where not that positive , at the same volumelevels on the amp and in simhub i could barely feel anything .
With the reckhorns my volumelevel on the amp was i little over half and in simhub was like this

Been using RPMS and wheel slip on the reckhorns , for the rest i use the BK Gamer .
To get a similar feel on the BK advance i have to raise the volume amp ( 3 o'clock) and turn up the volume for the effect a lot (90%) in simhub .
Is this normal for the BK advance or am i missing something obvious ??

 

[Brutal Deluxe]

That effect is not compatible for Assetto Corsa. Does anyone know how to program an alternative layer to simulate that effect?

I'm not sure if there's some kind of blip with SimHub. I had it come up last night saying that this effect wasn't compatible with iRacing, though it definitely is. I'm certain that it should also be fine with AC/ACC.

I will update SimHub this evening and see if it remedies this. Never had this issue with any of the effects before.

 

[John Foster]

@Mr Latte thanks so much for the reply. I’m budget limited more than anything and so 3000D with multiple large BK LFE is something I’ll need to work towards. I’m just starting out with 2 x Reckhorn BS-200i to begin with and get an understanding of how this all works. Right now I could return the 3000 and get a 1000D or even stretch to the 3000D but it’s overkill for my Reckhorns (as is the 3000).

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte thanks so much for the reply. I’m budget limited more than anything and so 3000D with multiple large BK LFE is something I’ll need to work towards. I’m just starting out with 2 x Reckhorn BS-200i to begin with and get an understanding of how this all works. Right now I could return the 3000 and get a 1000D or even stretch to the 3000D but it’s overkill for my Reckhorns (as is the 3000).

John my advice is to look at it more long term. A 1000D will power the BK Concerts at 2omh and can put out just about enough wattage for the LFE at 4ohm if its mounted directly to seat/pedals regions for easier energy transfer and not in corners of the main rigs frame.

The 3000D model with the extra wattage isn't a pile more cash and then as an amp can run more within its limits away from peak levels. That may help longterm with reliability as well.

As for large BK often eBay can have decent bargins, it's worth keeping an eye as several of my own units are second hand but were in good nick, worked with no issues.

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi ,
Started with tactile a little over a year ago with a BK Gamer 2 , using simhub as software .
After reading al these threads on RD on tactile , witch have been very helpfull , i decided to buy a NX1000D and started with 2 reckhorns BS200i , plan was to replace them in time with 2 BK Advance .
So bought my first BK Advance , installed it yesterday .
First impressions where not that positive , at the same volumelevels on the amp and in simhub i could barely feel anything .
With the reckhorns my volumelevel on the amp was i little over half and in simhub was like this

View attachment 396261
Been using RPMS and wheel slip on the reckhorns , for the rest i use the BK Gamer .
To get a similar feel on the BK advance i have to raise the volume amp ( 3 o'clock) and turn up the volume for the effect a lot (90%) in simhub .
Is this normal for the BK advance or am i missing something obvious ??


View attachment 396276
View attachment 396275

Getting hard to follow all the different posts.
Okay so a point mentioned several times, is that the iNuke and newer NXD amps have two volume controls.
The difference with these to a typical amp is that the front knobs will adjust the input level of the source going into the amp.
Its not the primary control for the amps output level.

Spoiler: Hidden

You will see that the amp software actually has input and output meters, ahhhhhhh.

So if a person is using different sources for the A & B channels they might have different strengths to their own gain levels,. This lets a person equalize their levels (as an input for amp) to the same gain levels going into the amp prior to the amps main/primary amplification stage.

Now boys/girls, (lol) If you increase the soundcard's volume you will see the input meter increasing.
Likewise, if you place the soundcard to 50% but now increase/decrease the front knob level it will adjust the gain level from the source and in our case being the soundcard.

What to avoid:

Soundcard 90%-100% = Hot
Amp Knob Beyond 12pm/1pm positon = Hot
Hot & Hot = Very Hot = Bad

Soundcard 50-60% = Warm
Amp Knob 12pm/1pm = Cosey
Warm & Cosey = Good

Ahh but its not loud/strong enough is it and this is the problem.....
Ensure the amp is using a wattage protection level to suit your units rating or if its a bigger BK then ensure no wattage limit is active. Next, goto the crossover screen and see that you can for each channel increase the "Output Level"
Have a look at the meter levels in the software as you will see it increase as you alter the output levels or other factors such as soundcard level or amps knobs. We want a good balance and why soundcard 50%-60% is more than enough to avoid distortion/clipping going into the amp.


Create slopes like these, do you feel the difference? What are they doing? These curves are only using 0dB.
How far below 0dB can you feel? Frequencies at -5dB or -10dB? Set a slope to a point for a frequency then use an effect with that frequency to deterimine if it can be felt. You can also adjust the Simhub slider volume level for the effect.

The crossover uses different filters and then with the filters you can adjust how sharp the slope or drop off is for the filter.
If you spend time mess about with this and you will see with the graphics how you can create a curve that places specific Hz to +dB levels you may want. You also then are controlling what range of frequencies the amp sends to the transducers.

I will show again an example of different slopes. This time we have +10dB being applied to the output level.

Above you can see how one channel operates upto 300Hz and still at 0dB level. This channel also produces 90Hz at about +7dB
Yet with the opposite channel and its curve. We see it only output @ 130Hz at 0dB level. Yet if we look and track its output for 90Hz it is similar at +7dB. So what we are doing is applying a curve to match the output for the amp to generate to increase how certain frequencies will be output. We then also restrict what range in Hz we want that unit to work upto and in doing this we can create an output that also suits certain performances and characteristics different models of tactile have. Some units have peaks at different levels and some units will generate very little output with either the very lowest frequencies or the frequencies above 80Hz. You can try boosting frequencies and test this with tones but if a unit does not physically output certain frequencies well then applying boost will not make a great deal of difference.

Learn to read these by looking at the frequencies along the bottom/horizontal and the vertical being the dB being applied
Now we have +10dB, notice how curves change when you alter the output level as it will affect the dB of the different frequencies depending on the slope and filter also being used.


More examples:

Try making ones like it and feel the differences, this in the "Crossover" is not tone generation it is simply controlling what and how the frequencies from the soundcard get amplified. The EQ allows us better to alter specific frequencies but some people think they need to use lots of EQ bands to create a curve when really thats not the point. With the EQ we can combine it to work with a Crossover curve but in that curve we may then want to cut/boost a specific band of frequencies and then apply a minus -dB control to them. An example would be reverb or piston pang that with the PEQ we can target the problematic frequencies and tune them not to cause issue. EQ is not always about boosting things.

 

[Rostovic]

Getting hard to follow all the different posts.
Okay so a point mentioned several times, is that the iNuke and newer NXD amps have two volume controls.
The difference with these to a typical amp is that the front knobs will adjust the input level of the source going into the amp.
Its not the primary control for the amps output level.

Spoiler: Hidden

You will see that the amp software actually has input and output meters, ahhhhhhh.

So if a person is using different sources for the A & B channels they might have different strengths to their own gain levels,. This lets a person equalize their levels (as an input for amp) to the same gain levels going into the amp prior to the amps main/primary amplification stage.

Now boys/girls, (lol) If you increase the soundcard's volume you will see the input meter increasing.
Likewise, if you place the soundcard to 50% but now increase/decrease the front knob level it will adjust the gain level from the source and in our case being the soundcard.

What to avoid:

Soundcard 90%-100% = Hot
Amp Knob Beyond 12pm/1pm positon = Hot
Hot & Hot = Very Hot = Bad

Soundcard 50-60% = Warm
Amp Knob 12pm/1pm = Cosey
Warm & Cosey = Good

Ahh but its not loud/strong enough is it and this is the problem.....
Ensure the amp is using a wattage protection level to suit your units rating or if its a bigger BK then ensure no wattage limit is active. Next, goto the crossover screen and see that you can for each channel increase the "Output Level"
Have a look at the meter levels in the software as you will see it increase as you alter the output levels or other factors such as soundcard level or amps knobs. We want a good balance and why soundcard 50%-60% is more than enough to avoid distortion/clipping going into the amp.


Create slopes like these, do you feel the difference? What are they doing?

The crossover uses different filters and then with the filters you can adjust how sharp the slope or drop off is for the filter.
If you spend time mess about with this and you will see with the graphics how you can create a curve that places specific Hz to +dB levels you may want. You also then are controlling what range of frequencies the amp sends to the transducers.

I will show again an example of different slopes.

Above you can see how one channel operates upto 300Hz and still at 0dB level. This channel also produces 90Hz at about +7dB
Yet with the opposite channel and its curve. We see it only output @ 120Hz at 0dB level. Yet if we look and track its output for 90Hz it is similar at +7dB. So what we are doing is applying a curve to match the output for the amp to generate to increase how certain frequencies will be output. We then also restrict what range in Hz we want that unit to work upto and in doing this we can create an output that also suits certain performances and characteristics different models of tactile have. Some units have peaks at different levels and some units will generate very little output with either the very lowest frequencies or the frequencies above 80Hz. You can try boosting frequencies and test this with tones but if a unit does not physically output certain frequencies well then applying boost will not make a great deal of difference.

Learn to read these by looking at the frequencies along the bottom/horizontal and the vertical being the dB being applied
Now we have +10dB, notice how curves change when you alter the output level as it will affect the dB of the different frequencies depending on the slope and filter also being used.


More examples:

Try making ones like it and feel the differences, this in the "Crossover" is not tone generation it is simply controlling what and how the frequencies from the soundcard get amplified. The EQ allows us better to alter specific frequencies but some people think they need to use lots of EQ bands to create a curve when really thats not the point. With the EQ we can combine it to work with a Crossover curve but in that curve we may then want to cut/boost a specific band of frequencies and then apply a minus -dB control to them. An example would be reverb or piston pang that with the PEQ we can target the problematic frequencies and tune them not to cause issue. EQ is not always about boosting things.

Thanks for the response and your time.
Guess i have a to experiment a little more with the amp and the BK advance.
Already made a big difference , many thanks

 

[DiLFe]

Once you have nice tuned settings all you need to do is power up the amp and the last memory used preset is loaded. So its very much set and forget once configured to your liking. To get the most out of the large BK we limit the soundcard output so the AMP not the soundcard is then using a crossover filter combination as the DSP on the amp controls the input level and output amplification process. We dont want too hot of an input level (like a soundcard at max volume) going into the amp prior to the amps own input level adjustments (front knobs on these amps) as the actual primary amplification control is in the crossover settings.

Well we don't want the signal going in too hot, but generally, in an amplification series you would amplify the signal more in the beginning of a chain to reduce noise? However, might not be an issue for tactile. [EDIT] You already mentioned this in more detail in a later post, agree, HOT-HOT is always bad.

Would really have hoped that EQ APO would have support for multiple soundcards. I think I'll check it out when I get a second sound card for BKs, I'll start with 8 exciters. I really hoped that software EQ could offer a set and forget approach.

I really don't like the idea of manually changing multiple settings and physical knobs for different sims and car profiles. I'd much rather set base DSP (in amp or software) and physical volume knobs once, then fine tune things with different profiles in simhub (also gain).

All speculation until I get testing. I'll stay quiet until I have something actually up and running, it's just exciting times... whoop!

ps. I'm really into AMS2, love it with VR runs nice on an old 1070. Anyone tried setting up simhub with that?

 

[Mr Latte]

Ive not had any tactile operational for about 2 months. So not been doing any further research/testing with effects. Will be a different story when I get the tactile onto the new build.

Small progress the first phase build of 6x platforms for the isolation towers are done.


@Rostovic
Keep in mind the tactile will not do much with higher frequencies.
BKs start to drop off around 60-80Hz even though they are listed on paper to work upto 250Hz
Lots of tactile will have little feel over 100Hz especially if they are not directly mounted to seat/pedal regions.

You can set a curve similar to what you have but then go into EQ to create a massive cut/drop with different EQ tabs for the low frequencies. Its a good way to test what your units produce with say only the 80Hz - 100Hz - 150Hz - 200Hz range.

That way you get to determine how well the different effects you use work with the higher frequencies.
No point sending the units high frequencies to cause overheating if they are not doing much in terms of immersion you can feel

Come back and let us know how that goes.

 

[EsxPaul]

What car or sim, or is it an issue in general?

Copy the layer and the settings it has, now try the copy but lower the (debouncing delay) and (response filter) compare with each effect (original /copy) one at a time on/off.
See if that helps.

I'm solely using ACC with the Lambo GT3. That's the one and only thing I've ever tried and never gotten beyond it so I have no idea how tactile will work in another title.

I didn't manage to make any progress today as ACC has decided to no longer recognise my button box I'll need to work that out and have another attempt over the weekend.

I'll try your suggestions out and I think what I need to do is keep trying stuff out for at least another 10+ hours before I post again. I seem to be in a pattern of trying the odd thing for half an hour here and there, then return here to whinge a bit more. That's no good for anyone and I need to knuckle down with Sim Hub and get a good handle on that as it's the thing that's holding any progress back.

One thing I have learnt today is that rpms feel much better coming from the BKs than the Exiters so I think I'll try to concentrate on BK rpm and remove it altogether from the Exiters to free up another effect that can be used on them.

I noticed you are getting lots of requests for advice lately and I don't want to add to that unnecessarily

Your platform is coming along nicely and looks great by the way!

 

[FlikenFlaken24]

One nut above and one nut bellow both screwed towards each other with the spring wire and the shaker rim between the nuts.

My exciter dosent have a rim like that... :/ thats why i have a hard time to mount on the spring. I will look for a metal plate or something and try it with that.

 

[DiLFe]

My exciter dosent have a rim like that... :/ thats why i have a hard time to mount on the spring. I will look for a metal plate or something and try it with that.

One idea, if you don't intend to use that seat in a car anymore. Try polyurethane spray? This is the stuff that you blast inside walls for filling up airpockets for insulating walls, among other things. It's available in any hardware store, and easy to apply. Watch out, it expands as ****.

It gets quite hard when it dries, but its easy to shape with a knife. You could most likely fill up the bottom of the seat with only this, as it sticks like glue to stuff. Now you could even throw in a metal plate inside the mix as that would allow for better transmission of vibrations.

It's not going to be hard as metal, but I would suspect you could get at least a decent attachment made and hopefully also transmit some vibrations a little better. If you were to try this try, add a metal plate or something into the mix that connects to crucial contact points and gives you something to fasten the exciters against.

No guarantees!

 

[Brutal Deluxe]

I'm not sure if there's some kind of blip with SimHub. I had it come up last night saying that this effect wasn't compatible with iRacing, though it definitely is. I'm certain that it should also be fine with AC/ACC.

I will update SimHub this evening and see if it remedies this. Never had this issue with any of the effects before.

@KnIgHtCoM Think I've realised why we both had a similar issue with this effect.

I had a quick go on Dirt Rally 2.0 and haven't set my tactile up for it. So my amps were off but SimHub was still open and reading the game data. Turns out that this effect is not compatible with Dirt Rally and SimHub disables it.

To fix this, just start a session in AC and SimHub should show it as working again. Hope that helps.

 

[Brutal Deluxe]

When duplicating profiles in SimHub, which boxes should I have ticked/unticked?

I've lost track of what to do and seem to lose all the setup info on the "Sound Output" tab. I did a windows update last night and lost all of this info again, though it could be down to how I'm saving or duplicating profiles. Any help welcome.

PS - If any of you guys are on iRacing and want to send me a friend request, I'm on there as "Ste Phillips" Cheers