Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[ScreaminBejesus]

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Last night I ran a sine wave test tone through the t.racks software just to place one of the Dayton units in different spots whilst I sat in the rig - the problem is that I'm probably absorbing a lot of the energy by holding the unit, and its hard to localise the vibrations when it's also rattling my hand and arm. Reaching round the back of the seat is also obviously limited and difficult. I might need my wife to try placing a unit round the shoulder blade area to test as an alternative.
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I can't decide where to mount these 4 Dayton units, and I'm also unsure which effects I'm best trying out there once they are in place.
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If I understand your description correctly, you are holding them against the seat in different positions. In my (limited) experience, you won't get a representative impression of how the Dayton exciters will feel until you actually mount them on the seat. If you don't like it, you can pry the VHB loose with a butter knife and reposition elsewhere. If the VHB is damaged in the process, you can get more or switch to Dual-Lock. I know we have different seats, but I have found that one pair mounted in the shoulder area and another pair down low (either near the base of the spine, under the thighs, or, if you have a good mounting spot, around the hips) work well. In my Sparco seat, all those positions are equally effective -- it just depends on where on the driver's body you want to apply the stimulus.

The only real problem I have found in mounting the Dayton exciters is that, in some positions and for reasons I cannot yet determine, some of the exciters' bodies make contact with the fiberglass, creating a harsh rattle. I am thinking about maybe using a thicker adhesive to keep the body further from the seat for the ones that do this.

 

[ScreaminBejesus]

I purchased just 1- 2 channel amp I'm using the Motherboards built in sound card.

Light Blu- Line In
Lime-Line Out,Front Speaker Out
Pink- Mic In
Orange – – Center/Subwoofer
Black – Rear Speaker
Gray – – – Side Speaker Out


I'm wondering do I get a 3.5mm Y splitter and plug into 2 connections on the mobo. If so which colourd.

In the computer settings what do I set things in Realtek Audio manager stereo? Or Windows sound settings 5.1? 7.1? Do I turn speakers off and just turn on subwoofer.

With that amp, which appears to just take a standard 3.5mm stereo input plug, you just want a simple stereo cable with a 3.5mm TRS plug at each end. Stick one end in the lime (line out) socket on your sound card. Even if you aren't using the other channels, I'd go ahead and tell Windows you want it configured as 5.1 or 7.1. Then choose the sound card in SimHub, select either "Left/Right" or "Custom channel map" and test channels 1 and 2.

 

[DM77]

If I understand your description correctly, you are holding them against the seat in different positions. In my (limited) experience, you won't get a representative impression of how the Dayton exciters will feel until you actually mount them on the seat. If you don't like it, you can pry the VHB loose with a butter knife and reposition elsewhere. If the VHB is damaged in the process, you can get more or switch to Dual-Lock. I know we have different seats, but I have found that one pair mounted in the shoulder area and another pair down low (either near the base of the spine, under the thighs, or, if you have a good mounting spot, around the hips) work well. In my Sparco seat, all those positions are equally effective -- it just depends on where on the driver's body you want to apply the stimulus.

The only real problem I have found in mounting the Dayton exciters is that, in some positions and for reasons I cannot yet determine, some of the exciters' bodies make contact with the fiberglass, creating a harsh rattle. I am thinking about maybe using a thicker adhesive to keep the body further from the seat for the ones that do this.

So I did a bit more testing on the back of the seat with my fabulous assistant and wife holding the Dayton's in different areas, and either side of the lower spine feels pretty OK, so I decided to break out the dual lock and place them.

They felt awful because the leather at the back of the seat sags away from the seat padding due to the weight of the Dayton's, and when we were testing, the units were being pushed into the padding rather than just holding to the leather surface.

So I decided to open up the seat to find the supports and this one is broken, the spot weld failed but I pushed it back together and it's staying in place so far (I think)

With the magic of a stanley knife and cable ties I tensioned the area to the right of the exciters across a pair of horizontal supports to keep them tighter to the inner frame

It's not perfect, but its the best I'll probably achieve for now until I eventually replace this rig and go with a solid seat. I'll tension the other side when I'm feeling more energetic, because the other side is kinda flush to the wall and there are some storage boxes right where I'll need to be standing to get propper access.

The next pair of exciters are going in the thigh area, and I might get a 3rd pair to mount on the side supports but I won't be using DSP for all 6, so I'll need to choose the pairs that need the most taming to go through the t.racks mini.

EDIT: So I've tensioned the left side now and things feel a LOT better. I thought about tensioning between the units as well, but its an absolute ***** to get anywhere near the centre of the seat and still fiddle about with daisy chained cable ties. The testing continues!

The Left channel needs to be set -4.2dB to match the right channel at 0.0dB - thank god for DSP settings (at least with a 40hz sine wave test tone)!

EDIT 2: The right side Dayton has fallen off twice. I've had to loop the speaker cable through cable tie so if it falls off again it won't hit the floor. It wasn't even being used then it fell off either :-(

 

[Brutal Deluxe]

So I did a bit more testing on the back of the seat with my fabulous assistant and wife holding the Dayton's in different areas, and either side of the lower spine feels pretty OK, so I decided to break out the dual lock and place them.

View attachment 389943

They felt awful because the leather at the back of the seat sags away from the seat padding due to the weight of the Dayton's, and when we were testing, the units were being pushed into the padding rather than just holding to the leather surface.

So I decided to open up the seat to find the supports and this one is broken, the spot weld failed but I pushed it back together and it's staying in place so far (I think)
View attachment 389944

With the magic of a stanley knife and cable ties I tensioned the area to the right of the exciters across a pair of horizontal supports to keep them tighter to the inner frame

View attachment 389945

It's not perfect, but its the best I'll probably achieve for now until I eventually replace this rig and go with a solid seat. I'll tension the other side when I'm feeling more energetic, because the other side is kinda flush to the wall and there are some storage boxes right where I'll need to be standing to get propper access.

The next pair of exciters are going in the thigh area, and I might get a 3rd pair to mount on the side supports but I won't be using DSP for all 6, so I'll need to choose the pairs that need the most taming to go through the t.racks mini.

EDIT: So I've tensioned the left side now and things feel a LOT better. I thought about tensioning between the units as well, but its an absolute ***** to get anywhere near the centre of the seat and still fiddle about with daisy chained cable ties. The testing continues!

The Left channel needs to be set -4.2dB to match the right channel at 0.0dB - thank god for DSP settings (at least with a 40hz sine wave test tone)!

EDIT 2: The right side Dayton has fallen off twice. I've had to loop the speaker cable through cable tie so if it falls off again it won't hit the floor. It wasn't even being used then it fell off either :-(

I'm not sure how much success you'll end up getting with this approach. You're obviously limited for where these can fix on to, but I would try to space them further apart so you have a better chance of feeling stereo seperation. Would it be possible to post some more photos of your seat, particularly the sides and mounting points? I think that mounting them to the leather will continue to be problematic.

 

[DM77]

I'm not sure how much success you'll end up getting with this approach. You're obviously limited for where these can fix on to, but I would try to space them further apart so you have a better chance of feeling stereo seperation. Would it be possible to post some more photos of your seat, particularly the sides and mounting points? I think that mounting them to the leather will continue to be problematic.

The problem I have is that the tactiles lose a lot of sensation in the lower spine if you move them further apart.

I'll post some images tomorrow of the rest of the seat.

 

[Ormy]

I'm getting started with this tactile stuff soon (I have a single BK LFE and an Inuke 1000, just waiting for cables etc to arrive) and I have a few questions.

I'm using HDMI out from an Nvidia card for video and 5.1 audio for my main speakers. My motherboard has 8 channels of analog out via 4x 3.5mm TRS jacks that I'm not currently using. I can use these for tactile transducers right? So I shouldn't need to buy an extra soundcard?

In terms of wiring/amps and the audio/EQ side of things I'm pretty confident, my other hobby is home cinema so I've been doing this kind of stuff for a while. I'll be using EqualizerAPO to fine tune the tactile effects.

My worry is mainly in terms of software. I have heard talk of Simvibe and Simhub softwares around here. Which is better? Is the license for simhub worth it?

How difficult is it to get these programs communicating correctly with the racing game being played? At the moment I'm mainly playing Pcars2, is it easy to set up simhub/simvibe with this game?

What other games are supported? Is there a list somewhere?

Any other tips regarding software set up?

Thanks.

 

[Squared Circle]

Can only talk for Simhub as that's what I'm using. Can recommend it in EVERY way. List of supported games happens to be where google tells us:
https://www.simhubdash.com/supported-games/
I also started with PCars2. Now on RF2 I didn't bother changing settings in Simhub as it still works like it should. Software cost was around 3% of the total costs of my tactile project, so it's a no-brainer.

 

[vanka472]

Can someone lead me in the right direction for the crossover feature in Simhub?

Also, I am using dual lock (didn't cut the inside of where the exciter is out, and I can barely feel it on the seat. should I be cutting it out to replace the circle adhesive that was originally on it?

 

[DM77]

I'm getting started with this tactile stuff soon (I have a single BK LFE and an Inuke 1000, just waiting for cables etc to arrive) and I have a few questions.

I'm using HDMI out from an Nvidia card for video and 5.1 audio for my main speakers. My motherboard has 8 channels of analog out via 4x 3.5mm TRS jacks that I'm not currently using. I can use these for tactile transducers right? So I shouldn't need to buy an extra soundcard?

In terms of wiring/amps and the audio/EQ side of things I'm pretty confident, my other hobby is home cinema so I've been doing this kind of stuff for a while. I'll be using EqualizerAPO to fine tune the tactile effects.

My worry is mainly in terms of software. I have heard talk of Simvibe and Simhub softwares around here. Which is better? Is the license for simhub worth it?

How difficult is it to get these programs communicating correctly with the racing game being played? At the moment I'm mainly playing Pcars2, is it easy to set up simhub/simvibe with this game?

What other games are supported? Is there a list somewhere?

Any other tips regarding software set up?

Thanks.

SimVibe and SimShakerWheels used to be the recommended software for tactile, but SimHub is cheaper, and its better, its more configurable and I believe it has better compatibiliity with more games. There is a free version you can unlock with a donation.

 

[DM77]

Can someone lead me in the right direction for the crossover feature in Simhub?

Also, I am using dual lock (didn't cut the inside of where the exciter is out, and I can barely feel it on the seat. should I be cutting it out to replace the circle adhesive that was originally on it?

Im using dual lock on mine too. I can feel it fine, and all I did was peel off the cover from the dual lock and the tactile. The problem I have is that the exciters keep falling off even though I went over the exciter with a flat blade so the bottom lip would fully bond to the dual lock...

 

[Ormy]

Thanks for the info guys. I really liked that the Simhub developer allows you pay different amounts for the license. Based on that and comments on here I paid the 10Euro and got my license file immediately. Looks like solid software. Still waiting for a few ancillaries to be delivered before I can get everything hooked up.

 

[vanka472]

Im using dual lock on mine too. I can feel it fine, and all I did was peel off the cover from the dual lock and the tactile. The problem I have is that the exciters keep falling off even though I went over the exciter with a flat blade so the bottom lip would fully bond to the dual lock...

It started to come through with some time, not sure if it just need to bond more or what. Mine isn't quite as strong as I thought it was going to be...not sure if I didn't get the right Dual lock or what. I will use it until something happens I suppose!

 

[ScreaminBejesus]

It started to come through with some time, not sure if it just need to bond more or what. Mine isn't quite as strong as I thought it was going to be...not sure if I didn't get the right Dual lock or what. I will use it until something happens I suppose!

I have a couple of different grades of dual lock. I had some hope that it could be a useful alternative to VHB. I haven’t actually used any of it on the exciters, but I have to say that I’m not overly impressed with either the adhesive backing or the interlocking pieces, especially the low profile version — 4570. The 3560 seems a bit better, but also much thicker.

 

[DM77]

It started to come through with some time, not sure if it just need to bond more or what. Mine isn't quite as strong as I thought it was going to be...not sure if I didn't get the right Dual lock or what. I will use it until something happens I suppose!

I was running some audio through the Daytons last night in Doom Eternal and they were thumping along nicely, without heating up. They are pretty powerful but I'm still trying to work out how hard they can safely be driven.

If they get warm, is that usual, or is it a sign they are being over-driven? I know they probably shouldnt get hot. Is there a stated operating temperature?

 

[djtopa]

Cheers.Can someone help me I have a problem with Simhub (full version) shake it for body shakers.I connected 2 body shakers to an separate output and soundcard (onboard with realtech drivers) powered by sony reciever 4x 100w(my main sound go to rme babyface interface).So for a day everything worked ok.Day 2 left shaker dont work so I change te cable from pc to amplifier and turned of few effects that dont work in AC(abs...etc )and it worked.Day 3 left shaker again dont work.But it works ok when I play music on it(via sony reciever that powers shakers) just like on day one.When I test it in Simhub it starts to shake and then nothing..if I repeat test after few mins it starts again and stop.Right channel works OK all the time.Strange and its drivin me crazy.

 

[hershann]

Using the Dayton exciters and they are very good - however over the last 2 days 1 of the exciters started rattling - I have reduced the power output but there are some frequencies that it still rattles quite badly (like something is really loose) wonder if there’s any way to save it. Have ordered replacements in the meantime.

 

[Mr Latte]

Using the Dayton exciters and they are very good - however over the last 2 days 1 of the exciters started rattling - I have reduced the power output but there are some frequencies that it still rattles quite badly (like something is really loose) wonder if there’s any way to save it. Have ordered replacements in the meantime.

We have to be careful with wattage of these, although some effects in Simhub (inc gear) may also cause clipping with highish volumes. You can apply the crossover feature to help protect the unit from the lowest bass and restrict its highest frequencies as well. These will reduce the workload of the unit without impacting too much the felt sensation.

If you don't have other EQ controls then also try to reduce a little the 30Hz EQ slider on your soundcard that your exciters are connected to. Like a lot of budget tactile transducers, they have a peak output @40Hz range and it can help to reduce this peak a bit but maintain a suitable volume that also helps you feel other frequencies not so much the peak being overdriven over others.

Crossover Usage

 

[EsxPaul]

@Mr Latte a couple of questions if you don't mind.

Should I still implement the Sim Hub crossover feature even though I have separate DSP control via the NX and t.racks software?

If I should use the Sim Hub crossover, should I set the low/high pass filters to align with my tone generator results? For example, my exiters can be perceived from 20Hz to 185Hz so I guess they would be the figures I would input into the crossover, if used.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte a couple of questions if you don't mind.

Should I still implement the Sim Hub crossover feature even though I have separate DSP control via the NX and t.racks software?

If I should use the Sim Hub crossover, should I set the low/high pass filters to align with my tone generator results? For example, my exiters can be perceived from 20Hz to 185Hz so I guess they would be the figures I would input into the crossover, if used.

In your case, you would have more control with advanced DSP so you dont really need it being used in Simhub. I would set a crossover slope that limits the exciters to come in around mid 30Hz but let it peak at around 50Hz. Then use PEQ to cut a little the 40Hz and maybe bosst a little the 50-60Hz.
Its personal preference but this lets you tweak the output character of the unit, just that we want to sometimes lower a unit's peak output for certain frequencies and help feel or slightly boost some others.

Most DSP works in similar ways if you look on Youtube you will get guides to help. You generally determine the type of filter and slope range to use, but then also how steep the curve is applied. This can be like a gentle or gradual slope or it may be like a cliff edge. You do this by altering the dB of the filter but also with how much gain you may be applying with the curve and what your target peak or slope you want. The visual graphics show whats happening.

Ive not yet got to look at the t.tracks unit as Ive been busy with my own build.

For testing with proper DSP controls, one thing to try is to create what we call a "bandbass" filter.
This is creating a small range of Hz and being able to shift it up/down over the frequency range. This way you only feel whats in the range at the frequencies you place it.

We do this to tune the PEQ

For example this lets you set what you feel within the crossover/created. So lets imagine you only wanted to feel the output of 135-185Hz to determine what that 50Hz range is bringing and how you might want to apply PEQ for this range to improve its felt detail.

You can do the same with any frequencies to only feel like in this example a 50Hz range and then tune different low/mid/high bands for the units you are powering.

 

[hershann]

We have to be careful with wattage of these, although some effects in Simhub (inc gear) may also cause clipping with highish volumes. You can apply the crossover feature to help protect the unit from the lowest bass and restrict its highest frequencies as well. These will reduce the workload of the unit without impacting too much the felt sensation.

If you don't have other EQ controls then also try to reduce a little the 30Hz EQ slider on your soundcard that your exciters are connected to. Like a lot of budget tactile transducers, they have a peak output @40Hz range and it can help to reduce this peak a bit but maintain a suitable volume that also helps you feel other frequencies not so much the peak being overdriven over others.

Crossover Usage

thanks for the tips- I am using a bass unit up front and exciters behind from the same amp - guess I will use the cross over to protect the exciters then bump the volume up for the bass units

Thanks

hershann