Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[EsxPaul]

That looks a very nice piece of kit Paul ..enjoy

Thanks, Graham. I'm still working my way through the trying not to blow anything up stage

 

[Tom_Hampton]

Nice to hear that work on the rig is progressing, I'm keen to see what it becomes.

I'm not completely familiar with the 3M Dual Lock range, it was part of a different product group when I worked there. This company are one of their main distributors for this kind of stuff, might be worth contacting them for further advice. I think there might also be a low profile option that could be well suited;

3M™ Dual Lock™ – Viking Industrial Products Ltd

3M™ Dual Lock™ tape from Viking Industrial Protects is a cost effective way to secure frequently removed parts or temporary fixtures. Shop online today.

www.vikingtapes.co.uk

Just to circle back to the Dual-Lock...I bought some of the low-profile Dual Lock (~0.1" joined). I started with a square cut the same width and the dayton exciter. Even that takes considerable pressure to get the mating surfaces to interlock. Without actually peel-and-sticking the dual-lock to the exciter, I sandwiched it between the exciter and a table. I had to apply the bulk of my bodyweight to the exciter to get the dual-lock to engage. Any dual-lock that is does not have pressure applied directly to it...seems to prevent any of it from engaging completely. Even then, it was only partial...and it peeled back apart quite easily.

I then proceeded to trim the dual-lock down to the size of the VHB ring on exciter...including removing the center hole. That dramatically improves the ability to get the dual-lock to fully engage. Once its fully engaged, it has a very satisfying "locked together" feel. It actually even makes a satisfying sound as it engages. It doesn't feel "squishy" at all compared to standard hook-and-loop (even the aerospace variety).

I have not tried it out yet, as my cabling has not yet arrived.

 

[vanka472]

Just to circle back to the Dual-Lock...I bought some of the low-profile Dual Lock (~0.1" joined). I started with a square cut the same width and the dayton exciter. Even that takes considerable pressure to get the mating surfaces to interlock. Without actually peel-and-sticking the dual-lock to the exciter, I sandwiched it between the exciter and a table. I had to apply the bulk of my bodyweight to the exciter to get the dual-lock to engage. Any dual-lock that is does not have pressure applied directly to it...seems to prevent any of it from engaging completely. Even then, it was only partial...and it peeled back apart quite easily.

I then proceeded to trim the dual-lock down to the size of the VHB ring on exciter...including removing the center hole. That dramatically improves the ability to get the dual-lock to fully engage. Once its fully engaged, it has a very satisfying "locked together" feel. It actually even makes a satisfying sound as it engages. It doesn't feel "squishy" at all compared to standard hook-and-loop (even the aerospace variety).

I have not tried it out yet, as my cabling has not yet arrived.

Any chance you could link the one you got? I too will be needing to use this with my exciters since the seat has a decent curvature throughout.

 

[vanka472]

I have 2 on my seat back, and 2 on my pedal plate.
Waiting for another 2 to arrive for the seat to make a total of 4.

I dont know what frequencies work best on certain effects, but you can tell distinct difference between what feels right and what certainly feels wrong!
This is what half of what would be helpful, what frequencies work best for different effects.
I find Sim Road Texture works well at higher frequencies as it feels more fine, whereas wheel slip/lock feel better lower down the frequency range due to a courser effect.
But then I cant get the sim road texture to switch in and out smoothly, due to my settings and its feels fake, its a very noticable switch exciter on, switch exciter off. This is the second part of what would be helpful.

I can screenshot my settings for people, but it is in no way set up by expert, infact a beginner.
And I have my settings dialled down quite a lot for the sake of the house, and i found the subtle effects a lot better than anything big.

I was also gonna ask how you liked having those on the pedals? Its a much more affordable route right of the bat, so that is something that I am thinking of jumping into as well.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

Any chance you could link the one you got? I too will be needing to use this with my exciters since the seat has a decent curvature throughout.

Sure. However, it looks like its currently out of stock on Amazon US. I paid $24 6 days ago, not $47!!

Amazon.com

 

[vanka472]

Sure. However, it looks like its currently out of stock on Amazon US. I paid $24 6 days ago, not $47!!

Amazon.com

Yeah ouch! I will keep these on the list and see what other options there are. I would love to see pics of your setup once you get it mounted!

Edit: Also thank you! That helps a lot.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

Yeah ouch! I will keep these on the list and see what other options there are. I would love to see pics of your setup once you get it mounted!

Edit: Also thank you! That helps a lot.

ETA: there as lots of other options. I also saw 3" disks. And 3x4" rectangles. For reference the adhesive patch is 1.65" outside diameter and 0.875" inside. I made a template a little bigger... 1.75" OD x 0.75" ID.

I got two of them installed. But, I got distracted by wanting to test them out....so, I didn't take any pics. Ill get some when I install the other two. But honestly, it just looks like two Exciters stuck to an aluminum racing seat....the spare from my racecar.

I put them on the L/R Lower lumbar region. I just used the default simhub Stereo config. Definitely needs work...but, I can certainly see the potential. Quite a bit more like driving a real racecar...for wheel slip anyway. I couldn't really feel any stereo separation, though. The vibrations from the exciters came through the seat perfectly well....of course I have nothing to compare it to. So, I wouldn't know if direct attachment would be better.

The Dual-Lock holds REALLY well. I couldn't get the exciter off by just pulling. I pulled pretty hard...very much harder and I'd probably have damaged the springs. I ended up using the back of a box cutter blade...but, any long thin-ish stiff edge would do the job. I slide it in between the layers and slowly pried them apart. Once it started to separate, it came loose easily. Again, this is the low profile stuff which is the weakest of the options.

 

[vanka472]

ETA: there as lots of other options. I also saw 3" disks. And 3x4" rectangles. For reference the adhesive patch is 1.65" outside diameter and 0.875" inside. I made a template a little bigger... 1.75" OD x 0.75" ID.

I got two of them installed. But, I got distracted by wanting to test them out....so, I didn't take any pics. Ill get some when I install the other two. But honestly, it just looks like two Exciters stuck to an aluminum racing seat....the spare from my racecar.

I put them on the L/R Lower lumbar region. I just used the default simhub Stereo config. Definitely needs work...but, I can certainly see the potential. Quite a bit more like driving a real racecar...for wheel slip anyway. I couldn't really feel any stereo separation, though. The vibrations from the exciters came through the seat perfectly well....of course I have nothing to compare it to. So, I wouldn't know if direct attachment would be better.

The Dual-Lock holds REALLY well. I couldn't get the exciter off by just pulling. I pulled pretty hard...very much harder and I'd probably have damaged the springs. I ended up using the back of a box cutter blade...but, any long thin-ish stiff edge would do the job. I slide it in between the layers and slowly pried them apart. Once it started to separate, it came loose easily. Again, this is the low profile stuff which is the weakest of the options.

Wow the strength on these is crazy, I keep underestimating them, but it seems like they are the "one-go" stick on solution, which is nice. I am too excited for these I think which is part of the problem haha. Im glad that its a clean install though. Are you using the Dayont Audio DAEX32EP-4 exciters? I wasn't sure if I asked that already. I think I will mostly be using that on the more curved parts of the seat, as that is where the issues with the VHF will be (if there is any).

 

[Tom_Hampton]

Wow the strength on these is crazy, I keep underestimating them, but it seems like they are the "one-go" stick on solution, which is nice. I am too excited for these I think which is part of the problem haha. Im glad that its a clean install though. Are you using the Dayont Audio DAEX32EP-4 exciters? I wasn't sure if I asked that already. I think I will mostly be using that on the more curved parts of the seat, as that is where the issues with the VHF will be (if there is any).

Yes, I bought 4 of the daex32ep-4 and a douk m4.

 

[Kieran527]

I was also gonna ask how you liked having those on the pedals? Its a much more affordable route right of the bat, so that is something that I am thinking of jumping into as well.

Theyre good on the pedals.
Again, you need to be subtle with volume level though.
I have HE Sprints with the baseplate, and when driving the exciters too hard you hear the rattle on the pedal plate which kills all realism sensation and creates an awful noise.
So dial them in properly on your pedals, get the volume set to suit you and theyre great.
Sim road texture with wheel slip and lock, is really good, a slight buzz you can feel through your feet as you driving, and then you feel brake lock and understeer, but again this is even with my beginner settings, someone who knows what theyre doing would take this to another level.

 

[jamescarruthers]

Has anyone had any issues with their Dayton exciters failing? I've been super careful not to drive them hard. One failed within about 20 seconds — which got replaced. Now the other one has started buzzing.

 

[Kieran527]

Has anyone had any issues with their Dayton exciters failing? I've been super careful not to drive them hard. One failed within about 20 seconds — which got replaced. Now the other one has started buzzing.

What are you settings.......
Sound card volume?
Amp Volume?
Effect % on Simhub?
Volume level on simhub for the effcts the exciters are present?
What frequency range are you using them in?

My soundcard is 50%
Amp volume is set to 50%
Then max % on simhub is 75% with volume level on effects at max 50%

I really found the subtle settings so much better than anything driving hard.
But ive only had mine working for about max 2 hours so far, and no issues.

 

[jamescarruthers]

But then I cant get the sim road texture to switch in and out smoothly, due to my settings and its feels fake, its a very noticable switch exciter on, switch exciter off. This is the second part of what would be helpful.

I can screenshot my settings for people, but it is in no way set up by expert, infact a beginner.
And I have my settings dialled down quite a lot for the sake of the house, and i found the subtle effects a lot better than anything big.

Are you running the effects on the same exciter? Or separate?

I have both the speed and the road texture (or whatever the one that uses telemetry is called) on the same channel and it felt pretty good. Just had to adjust the levels a bit. It didn't feel on/off.

I've found the same as you — subtle is preferable for me. It's very easy to make it feel like you're in a washing machine. The inside of a race car isn't as violent of a place as some might think from the perspective of vibration.

My biggest concern is going to to be that "on/off" effect from the exciter. It might just mean needing to tuning the frequencies in a sweeping effect from exciter to exciter with overlap. I know James mentioned RPM effects, so possibly running the car as always on with the exciters or a large BK under the seat could provide a more consistent effect. As in a real car (unless your electric!) once the car is on you always feel that effect. So replicating that and having the effect move across the exciters as the rpms get higher might increase the overall experience. My only question being that if this is happening will other effects like road textures and such be lost with the overlap. Please keep in mind this is all speculation, as I do not have any transducers yet and haven't had a chance to actually put into practice anything that I am saying.

With exciters attached to the same piece of the seat — where there's no physical separation and those frequencies are going to merge together – you have to decide what you want to feel and when.

It's exactly the same issue as mixing music. You can't have everything at once. So you split everything into frequencies where they work best if you want all the instruments to stand on their own. Instruments naturally make quite wide frequency ranges so they are EQ'ed to take out the bits that overlap with others. So you'd take the top end frequencies out of a bass so that it doesn't interfere with the instruments that are more naturally centred around those frequencies. Luckily we have all the control we need in Simhub to limit each of the effects to set frequencies.

My memory of driving a single-seater was that it was surprisingly smooth. There was a distinct vibration from the engine before pulling away but after that, it wasn't noticeable. The noise was most certainly noticeable though. In terms of vibrations, slicks on a super smooth race track were as you'd expect and any feel of the road surface was through the steering.

 

[jamescarruthers]

What are you settings.......
Sound card volume?
Amp Volume?
Effect % on Simhub?
Volume level on simhub for the effcts the exciters are present?
What frequency range are you using them in?

My soundcard is 50%
Amp volume is set to 50%
Then max % on simhub is 75% with volume level on effects at max 50%

I really found the subtle settings so much better than anything driving hard.
But ive only had mine working for about max 2 hours so far, and no issues.

I've set the physical amp at 50% and not been driving them at any extreme frequencies. I haven't been using them hard at all, as you say the subtle effects work better through them.

 

[CRMS]

I am looking at my next bit of shaking and plan to mount 4 Dayton Audio TT25-16 to give front/rear and left/right wheel effects with 2 50/50W amps and an external USB 5.1 sound card on or in seat base squab.
Two options:
1. Build a cushion from 1" firm foam - garden kneeler?? - and cut 4 holes for the 1" thick Daytons to sit in. Cover over with top, say 1/2 not so firm foam, and put inside zipped cushion case.
2. Drastic surgery on the seat base. Cut holes in from the bottom with a holesaw through the expanded foam base to just under the top surface. Put Daytons at bottom of holes and back fill with the plugs of foam.
Any thoughts??

 

[Kieran527]

Are you running the effects on the same exciter? Or separate?

I have both the speed and the road texture (or whatever the one that uses telemetry is called) on the same channel and it felt pretty good. Just had to adjust the levels a bit. It didn't feel on/off.

I've found the same as you — subtle is preferable for me. It's very easy to make it feel like you're in a washing machine. The inside of a race car isn't as violent of a place as some might think from the perspective of vibration.

I have left and right on both the pedal plate and seat, so for wheel slip/lock i have them on the side of the corresponding effect, but speed and sim road texture on both exciters.

I did initially have the same effect on my BK minis under the seat and the exciters on the back of the seat, but due to thier sweet spot frequency rate they didnt create a cohesive effects, so i quickly seperated them out.
So I have gear shift and road impacts on the BK minis, but dont have these on the exciters, even at the front, as the frequencies they worked out felt wierd on the exciters.
A big curb I will still feel through road texture on the pedal plate, but in my track car when i take too much curb I feel through my wheel and seat, way more than i ever do through my feet, so I let the wheel and bks give me that feeling.
So i let the bks do the bigger impacts, and exciters do the more refined stuff, seems to be working well.

If i had known all this before on a practical level, maybe id change things, but because it was theoretical i missed a few bits, and im having to adapt as i go along.
With my current limited time on the PC I wish it was very much plug and play, but most of the reward comes from the effort being put into making it right.

 

[McClusky]

I am looking at my next bit of shaking and plan to mount 4 Dayton Audio TT25-16 to give front/rear and left/right wheel effects with 2 50/50W amps and an external USB 5.1 sound card on or in seat base squab.
Two options:
1. Build a cushion from 1" firm foam - garden kneeler?? - and cut 4 holes for the 1" thick Daytons to sit in. Cover over with top, say 1/2 not so firm foam, and put inside zipped cushion case.
2. Drastic surgery on the seat base. Cut holes in from the bottom with a holesaw through the expanded foam base to just under the top surface. Put Daytons at bottom of holes and back fill with the plugs of foam.
Any thoughts??

I bought (and returned) a kit from Sim Racing Studios that included a ShakeSeat (4 transducers inside) which is essentially what you are making. I have a GS-105 G Seat and it has a 'not so soft' seat so I could not get comfortable as I felt the rear transducers on my bum but you may have a better experience depending on your seat.

If it wasn’t for that I would have kept it as I had 2 transducers on my pedal deck (somewhat mounted) and 2 transducers on my lower back (these were part of the kit). With all of that plus my BK4-4 mounted under my seat everything blended nicely using SimHub as I felt the rumbles in my feet, lower legs and underneath me.

Without a doubt my experience does not compare to what the big shakers and amps, mentioned in this thread, can do but for those who don’t know any better or don’t have the time to build a custom rig with proper transducer mounting I think it’s a good option as long as you feel comfortable on the seat-pad and you don’t “muddy” the transducers with a lot of different types of feedback. (results will vary depending on the rig and such)

 

[vanka472]

Theyre good on the pedals.
Again, you need to be subtle with volume level though.
I have HE Sprints with the baseplate, and when driving the exciters too hard you hear the rattle on the pedal plate which kills all realism sensation and creates an awful noise.
So dial them in properly on your pedals, get the volume set to suit you and theyre great.
Sim road texture with wheel slip and lock, is really good, a slight buzz you can feel through your feet as you driving, and then you feel brake lock and understeer, but again this is even with my beginner settings, someone who knows what theyre doing would take this to another level.

It seems like the overall less is more mentality is a good place to aim for and adjust for your rig from there. Better for the transducers and for the tuning. Good to keep in mind.

Mine will just be on CSL elites atm, so I wonder how I would mount them since the majority of the pedal and its components are on the backside of the plate. I will have to look into some options with that....

Did you purchase 3 transducers (one for the clutch) I wonder if having more of that on/off feeling could make the clutch have that attachment point click.

With exciters attached to the same piece of the seat — where there's no physical separation and those frequencies are going to merge together – you have to decide what you want to feel and when.

It's exactly the same issue as mixing music. You can't have everything at once. So you split everything into frequencies where they work best if you want all the instruments to stand on their own. Instruments naturally make quite wide frequency ranges so they are EQ'ed to take out the bits that overlap with others. So you'd take the top end frequencies out of a bass so that it doesn't interfere with the instruments that are more naturally centred around those frequencies. Luckily we have all the control we need in Simhub to limit each of the effects to set frequencies.

My memory of driving a single-seater was that it was surprisingly smooth. There was a distinct vibration from the engine before pulling away but after that, it wasn't noticeable. The noise was most certainly noticeable though. In terms of vibrations, slicks on a super smooth race track were as you'd expect and any feel of the road surface was through the steering.

Thanks for explaining in this manner, it definitely makes more sense. Its easy to forget that in the end we are still just translating sound into vibration. I have lots to dial in, most likely will be the easiest once I actually get my hands-on all my parts. Shipping delays from China are making this a much longer project than anticipated.

 

[ScreaminBejesus]

I am looking forward to another thread possibly coming from @ScreaminBejesus giving his own views/perspectives. I gave him some help, towards ideas/options with a rather nice custom solution he went with for a challenging installation to his rig.

EDIT: Build thread starts here: Build Report: Tactile Immersion in Motion

The build thread will start soon. As usual, I’m waiting for a few stray fasteners to hold the parts together. But I thought I’d stop in to offer a teaser and to again express my gratitude to Mr Latte for his invaluable advice along the way.

 

[Kieran527]

It seems like the overall less is more mentality is a good place to aim for and adjust for your rig from there. Better for the transducers and for the tuning. Good to keep in mind.

Mine will just be on CSL elites atm, so I wonder how I would mount them since the majority of the pedal and its components are on the backside of the plate. I will have to look into some options with that....

Did you purchase 3 transducers (one for the clutch) I wonder if having more of that on/off feeling could make the clutch have that attachment point click.

No, i only had 2, Left and Right.
I dont race with a clutch, and looking at simhub effects not sure how you'd get that feeling.

I feel sensations through my heels on the pedal plate, not sure its be that strong or realistic on the pedals themself. I only feel ABS through the pedal in my car, dont get vibration through a throttle.
Depends what effects and realism your trying to add i suppose.