Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

Rig Build Update:

After several versions and messing around with a few possible solutions, costing both time and money.
I did not rush this build and looked at more than just the first idea that came to my head. Seeking to try different concepts and find a solution I thought then was best. That is why this is rather different to most rigs as the objective itself is different.

What I mean by that is, I am seeking to "build a rig" for max tactile performance and push the boundaries and not just "adding" tactile to a rig.

Here is a peek at one side of the rigs tactile control structural frame.
This will fit within an 8020 based design but I'm going to try and combine some creativity with a bit of artistic flare.
For me, the look of the rig is also an important factor.

Still, lots to do and this isn't all tightened up but it gives a bit of an impression towards the progress and time/effort being put into the build.

Let's have a gander, shall we?



Notice the bolts to attach the seat, this whole upper section makes contact with the underside of the seat via a steel box frame.



The gap at the seat section is space for dual BK Concert used for RPM/SPEED effect roles. These hang inverted being bolted to the seat.
Pedal section and BK mounts are yet to be added to the front.



The design ensures more energy will go into the primary/upper tier and seat base, than the secondary/lower tier. Additional materials will be used on the isolation towers for sound deadening and vibration control. It speaks for itself.



My different approach for increased performance. Utilizing "Dual Role" - One of four BK & TST 429 combos for the seat section.
These work in harmony for L/R positional effects and the ability to separate or combine specific effect layers to 4 units per side.
Stereo effects can be further enhanced with 3 exciters per side on the back of the seat.

The seat alone in total is going to use 13 channels but incorporate 17 transducers.
Is that possible, we will see.

 

[RCHeliguy]

@RCHeliguy, you can remove the glue gun blobs and use an adapter that will let you switch fans without cutting cables.
means you can swap back in the standard fan if you ever wanted too.

This is the fans I used with no problems on multiple amps. The product number may have changed?
Noctua NF-R8 redux-1800 PWM, 4-Pin, High Performance Cooling Fan with 1800RPM

It makes a world of difference, just make sure you have the fans working in the same direction as the standard installation.

I compared rpm and CFM values and ordered a couple of the 80mm 12V 2,000 rpm model. it's supposed to run 16.1 dB max. I won't hear it at all.

PS. Sorry to post this just after your last post. You definitely have a beautiful aesthetic going even if I know it was designed for function.

 

[Ceolmor]

@RCHeliguy, you can remove the glue gun blobs and use an adapter that will let you switch fans without cutting cables.
means you can swap back in the standard fan if you ever wanted too.

This is the fans I used with no problems on multiple amps. The product number may have changed?
Noctua NF-R8 redux-1800 PWM, 4-Pin, High Performance Cooling Fan with 1800RPM

It makes a world of difference, just make sure you have the fans working in the same direction as the standard installation.

I compared rpm and CFM values and ordered a couple of the 80mm 12V 2,000 rpm model. it's supposed to run 16.1 dB max. I won't hear it at all.

Does it make any difference using a 3 pin fan or a 4 pin PWN fan to replace the two pin fans in the iNuke amps? Will both types of fan run permanently at maximum speed? With Noctua there is no difference in the price of 3 or 4 pin fans.

My situation is this. Now that the warranty on my NU1000DSP is long expired, I recently fitted the Noctua NF-R8 redux-1800 PWM 4-Pin fan with the MODDIY adapter (as both recommended by @Mr Latte) which I've had in my cupboard since I bought the amp. All went well, but I wasn't convinced the fan was running at max rpm. The fan is pretty much silent, but pushes out a lot less air. The one it replaced ran at 4000 rpm and pushes out 45.9 CFM, compared with the Nocuta at 1800 rpm and 31.3 CFM

I've now purchased two Noctua NF-A8 PWM 4 Pin 2,200 rpm fans with 32.6 CFM for my two older second hand NU3000DSPs also out of warranty. The adapters are comparatively quite expensive and will take ages to arrive so I plan to cut the wires and solder the relevant two wires to the two pin plugs from the current fans.

 

[Mr Latte]

Does it make any difference using a 3 pin fan or a 4 pin PWN fan to replace the two pin fans in the iNuke amps? Will both types of fan run permanently at maximum speed? With Noctua there is no difference in the price of 3 or 4 pin fans.

My situation is this. Now that the warranty on my NU1000DSP is long expired, I recently fitted the Noctua NF-R8 redux-1800 PWM 4-Pin fan with the MODDIY adapter (as both recommended by @Mr Latte) which I've had in my cupboard since I bought the amp. All went well, but I wasn't convinced the fan was running at max rpm. The fan is pretty much silent, but pushes out a lot less air. The one it replaced ran at 4000 rpm and pushes out 45.9 CFM, compared with the Nocuta at 1800 rpm and 31.3 CFM

I've now purchased two Noctua NF-A8 PWM 4 Pin 2,200 rpm fans with 32.6 CFM for my two older second hand NU3000DSPs also out of warranty. The adapters are comparatively quite expensive and will take ages to arrive so I plan to cut the wires and solder the relevant two wires to the two pin plugs from the current fans.

In fairness Ive not seen on any forum people having an overheating problem with the Noctua fans. Yes the CFM is quite a drop to the stock fan but I have not had any issue with mine, on several amps fitted with these and using tactile. I've even for the last 2 months been pushing a 1000 series amp with 2x large BK Concerts (2ohm) and no problems with it at all. Even though this amp is 6 years old now which isn't bad for a crappy Behringer is it lads?

Yeah new fans have likely come since the recommendation but looking at specs the new fan isn't that much improved with its higher 2200RPM to get excited about. I was surprised so little difference I wanted to check but yeah...

Specifications	NF-R8 REDUX 1800

Airflow

31.4 CFM

Specifications	NF-A8 PWM 5V

Airflow

32.6 CFM

I don't think its much of an upgrade but makes sense going with the newer product/model. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

 

[Ceolmor]

Thanks for the reply @Mr Latte . I wasn't suggesting that the NF-A8 was better than the NF-R8 Redux. The difference in spec is negligible. My concern was whether any of the 4 pin fans were running at max speed, but your experience seems to suggest that at what ever speed they are running they are up to the job and I need not worry.

I have the NF-A8 PWM 12V fan. I wouldn't recommend the 5V version. According to the Noctua website "Being a 5V fan, the NF-A8 5V PWM cannot be run at 12V and will be damaged when used with typical 12V power sources such as PC motherboard fan headers."

 

[Mr Latte]

Yeah good catch, I actually missed it was 5V, yes indeed 12V versions are needed.
The reduced noise is such a bonus but Im not sure if the NXD are much quieter than the older iNuke models.

 

[jamman39]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but audio stuff has always been difficult for me to grasp. I’m looking for an inexpensive and easy solution and I wonder if something like this could work as an all in one solution:

Amazon.com: Theater Solutions SUB8S 250 Watt Surround Sound HD Home Theater Slim Powered Active Subwoofer (Black): Home Audio & Theater

Amazon.com: Theater Solutions SUB8S 250 Watt Surround Sound HD Home Theater Slim Powered Active Subwoofer (Black): Home Audio & Theater

www.amazon.com

It seems to a woofer, a built in amp, and be slim and easy to mount under a racing seat. Is there something I’m missing?

 

[Mr Latte]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but audio stuff has always been difficult for me to grasp. I’m looking for an inexpensive and easy solution and I wonder if something like this could work as an all in one solution:

Amazon.com: Theater Solutions SUB8S 250 Watt Surround Sound HD Home Theater Slim Powered Active Subwoofer (Black): Home Audio & Theater

Amazon.com: Theater Solutions SUB8S 250 Watt Surround Sound HD Home Theater Slim Powered Active Subwoofer (Black): Home Audio & Theater

www.amazon.com

It seems to a woofer, a built in amp, and be slim and easy to mount under a racing seat. Is there something I’m missing?

We can add woofers to tactile and both together fills a gap that each has.
If we feel and hear bass it enhances the immersion, the best route to this is to use quality headphones with transducers.

Generally, even with very good subwoofers that create not just deep audible bass but strong vibrations are expensive.
Budget subs will vary in what they can achieve in how low in Hz they can truly deliver bass. An 8" woofer in woofer terms is a bit like a small kid, so it's not going to be as strong with low bass as let's say a grown-up sub like "nearfield" subwoofers in sizes of 18" and beyond that can create strong felt bass but with this also a great deal of audible bass too.

Don't be fooled into thinking wattages determine how good something necessarily is either as specs in watts are often a way to help market or sell something.

A transducer will do more in the opposite way, in that it produces more vibration than sound. If you take a source like a car engine, sure you could fill the room with audible bass and feel some vibes from it but then also combine that with a Buttkicker for example. This can work well but very few people can accommodate a rig constantly blowing out low bass via a loud subwoofer. And so this is why good headphones can be useful that now only the user hears the bass/audio.

So to get decent vibes from a sub will require it to be quite loud and even then it's not directly attached to the user's cockpit the vibes you actually feel will be so so. It can also generate reverb or boomy bass sounds which can be irritating and lower the immersion enjoyment.

Some transducers are like a speaker but without a speaker cone. They still emit some sound but with a transducer, we can attach it directly to the surface/object we seek to vibrate. That also brings options in placement and then isolating that object that we attempt to maintain the energy better in that object by what is referred to as decoupling it from the rest of the cockpits frame. This won't prevent the vibrations totally traveling to other sections through the isolation used but again you get various levels of isolation and materials that can do a better job.

So really I dont think this is an option you want and $100 is a very limited amount if you need a transducer and amp, some people can recommend to you what they bought as their entry into tactile immersion and how they found it performed. Also with tactile we can use PC software that generates tones from the games physics/telemetry and these we can control. So its not just traditional tactile we can use with sim racing where the unit works only from the game audio. So you have two options as possible sources, "game audio" and "tone generation".

Ideally people in your position or coming new into tactile want to be able to see comparisons of different units within price points and different amps to help them decide what to buy. Most people do enjoy the connection tactile brings with what you hear or your inputs via a sim/game making it more involving.

I would advise to seek to spend $200 and get a better but decent entry into it if you want to spend that amount or more?

 

[RCHeliguy]

NX4-6000 self-protection question.

I've been meaning to solder the connections on the back of my 8 pole receiver on my rig, but hadn't gotten around to it. ( Stupid, I know ) Anyway, while working on my pedal / foot deck area I had moved a bunch of stuff around and apparently I had an intermittent short that was killing my 4th channel.

So I was investigating this and apparently moved things in a bad way and caused a dead short with the volume at 50%. I heard a Pop and saw a burnt area around the spade connector on the back of the 8 pole receiver that wasn't supposed to touch.

Obviously this is all me. I'm not complaining. I know better, and should have done things very differently.

First I fixed the root cause and soldered the connections properly to the back of the 8 pole receiver. So there are now intermediate wires with connectors to the transducer cables in my rig.

I looked inside the NX4-6000 and nothing looks blown on either of the main boards and there is no odor of anything that burnt up. So I'm optimistic that I haven't completely blown this up.

The NX4-6000 instructions say that after the protection breaker is popped to unplug, put all volumes to 0, press the breaker to reset and press the power button.

It is currently not returning to a good running state.

The fans fire up for about a second and cut out and the front panel shows the protection leds for all 4 channels. I "think" I may have blown the breaker.

I could bypass the breaker and see if it powered up properly at that point, but that could cause additional damage if there is another issue.

My first thought is to get a replacement breaker to see if that works and if not, send it back to the factory for repair.

Do any of you have experience with shorting a Behringer amp with protection circuits?

Addendum: I removed the breaker and without a load on it, it reads 0.01 ohms. I put it back in and tested it before and after. It doesn't appear that the breakers is tripping as it still was reading 0.01 ohms after the fans shut off and I disconnected power.

I've set up a support ticket. Fingers crossed that I can get it repaired and it isn't just a brick.

Looks like I'm going back to my home brew amp for a little while.

 

[Mr Latte]

That sucks, sorry to hear that. Is always best to turn things off when tinkering but with the DSP amps Ive never had to do that, your amps a bit different and I hope you get it sorted.

 

[RCHeliguy]

That sucks, sorry to hear that. Is always best to turn things off when tinkering but with the DSP amps Ive never had to do that, your amps a bit different and I hope you get it sorted.

At least my home brew amp.is still working.

 

[Mr Latte]

At least my home brew amp.is still working.

Yeah, but in fairness as to how you described things, it does seem your homebrew audio with the partially done cables is what may of caused the issue with the short. This is one example of why for a lot of people new to tactile/audio I don't think the "homebrew d.i.y" is worth the risks or hassle unless they are confident with electronics. Even with someone experienced we can easily make a costly mistake or do something we know we shouldn't. I too, learned the hard way myself from a bad/costly decision, so I got into the habit of turning amps off when futtering with connections.


This "Tour Grade" component is what my own build will use...
Not a cheap solution but as taking my rigs tactile quite seriously, this option helps form a pro-level installation.

I purchased 4 of these a while back to install on the actual rig.
So I can just run 1xNL8 - 4x SpeakON cable for 4 channels at a time. Then just plug in a cable from each installed BK to this box.
This, therefore, means every BK can easily be disconnected or the unit physically removed from the rig with little hassle. It also reduces the number of cables running from the rig to the amp which is badly needed with the configuration I intend to use.

 

[EsxPaul]

@Mr Latte would these alternative distribution boxes be viable choices as something that could easily mount to 8020 profile? I'm guessing there would be some trade offs in quality due to the lower pricing.

STAGG XPW525BOX NEUTRIK POWERCON DISTRIBUTOR

Eurolite 60003760 Sab-42X Power Split Box

 

[Mr Latte]

Those are for power not for audio...

I think you would need to modify them, it is possible to make your own in buying the components but I wanted a pre-made solution and buy most of my cables from a company that custom makes them. Maybe costs a bit more but the quality, time saved and less hassle is worth it.

My builds cables and interconnects will cost quite a bit of money but I want to use the best options.
I still need to buy quite a few.

This might help you.

 

[EsxPaul]

Gotcha. Thanks for pointing that out. This just demonstrates just how little I know about what to look for when making up a list

I'm currently working my way through your guides and watching the videos as I go. In the meantime, I'm shuffling to the back of the class and banning myself from posting any further questions until I'm better educated.

 

[Mr Latte]

Gotcha. Thanks for pointing that out. This just demonstrates just how little I know about what to look for when making up a list

I'm currently working my way through your guides and watching the videos as I go. In the meantime, I'm shuffling to the back of the class and banning myself from posting any further questions until I'm better educated.

Nothing wrong in sharing or asking and learning.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Yeah, but in fairness as to how you described things, it does seem your homebrew audio with the partially done cables is what may of caused the issue with the short. This is one example of why for a lot of people new to tactile/audio I don't think the "homebrew d.i.y" is worth the risks or hassle unless they are confident with electronics. Even with someone experienced we can easily make a costly mistake or do something we know we shouldn't. I too, learned the hard way myself from a bad/costly decision, so I got into the habit of turning amps off when futtering with connections.

Thanks for the link. I had never seen one of those before. It looks like a nice piece of kit and I may consider adding one in the future.

You are absolutely correct. It was my fault. BTW I am a BSEE with lots of soldering experience, especially dealing with very powerful high current RC Helicopters where running 200A-300A from the batteries to the ESC to the motor with all the soldered connections and connectors were my responsibility.

Now that I have the proper soldered connections in place the risk is over. I this case, the root cause was laziness. I knew better. That connector REQUIRED soldered connections. It was absolutely foolish of me to use spades there.

That said, your advice to people is very sound and I'm not suggesting otherwise.

I set up an impromtu soldering station on the floor near my rig and had my fan blowing fumes away from me.

Going a bit off topic for a second.

This is one of the charging stations I built. It has a 2,000W Meanwell powersupply driving two dual PL8 chargers, with RFID tags and battery monitoring.

This is my speed heli running 14S which is 58.8V fully charged with this motor a current draw of up to 300A from 70C batteries capable of crazy discharge rates over 500A. The batteries get hot, the ESC gets hot and the motor gets burning hot.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Whirlwind SBNL18442 SBNL Series NL Splitter & Breakout Box

I think this would be good too. 8-pin to 4 x 2-pin instead of 4 pin.

Although I would probably just solder 2 pin receivers to the 8 pin receiver and make a custom fitted mount, but the whole concept is definitely a good one!

https://www.adorama.com/wwsbnl18442.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwv4_1BRAhEiwAtMDLsqKTKfzYl1RnsirNalw5m87zRcdhQYONC7H7IBzOo3i1TmWj7u7oeRoCyf4QAvD_BwE&utm_source=adl-gbase

 

[Chrhun]

My next step would be add tactile units under my pedal tray. Simple solution needed, two units and one amp. What would be a good setup with reasonable cost? I'm thinking Aura's, AuraSound AST-2B-4, but what would be small and good amp with these?

 

[Brutal Deluxe]

My next step would be add tactile units under my pedal tray. Simple solution needed, two units and one amp. What would be a good setup with reasonable cost? I'm thinking Aura's, AuraSound AST-2B-4, but what would be small and good amp with these?

I added the same shakers a couple of weeks ago...

They work pretty well and it's great to have some tactile from the front of the rig but I've got a lot of cross talk so don't get a clear stereo effect. I'm waiting for some different isolators to arrive so I can hopefully reduce the cross talk going through my rig... I'm not expecting a huge improvement tbh.

I'm running mine off a FOSI BT20A (£70). It's at half volume with Simhub also set at 50%, seems well suited for the money and hasn't skipped a beat.

Using road vibration and a small amount of gear shift feels good. I probably wouldn't attempt to put stereo effects through them if I was to install them again, I imagine this only can be improved upon if you run pedals that can be mounted separately. You might want to consider using one shaker and using the 2nd elsewhere on your rig and I presume it'll make your install easier. Let me know if you need any other details. Hope that's of help.