Podium DD's VS Simucube 2's

[Darren Byrne]

Hi guys, the past while I was trying to find good comparisons between these two models of dd's. Has anyone tested both ? I understand that the software for these aren't complete yet but is there any clear winner here ? thanks.

 

[mtakala]

My sincere apologies to those people that my comments upset. It was not meant to be anything personal.

Am I right in thinking that there will be an online subscription introduced for true drive?

You are wrong, and we have (now repeatedly) said that.

Create a dummy-account, cut the connection to it permanently (e.g. firewall etc.) and live life in "fallback mode" for the centuries to come.

Our current line of thinking is that no account is required at all, if we implement the fallback options as it is now. But the focus is on getting the online system and the fallback to profile management exactly like it is now, working correctly. This plan has not changed, it was always like this.

Would it really be a "good modern way" to be forced to start a webbrowser in order to be able to load a GPU profile or the settings of your printer?

No webbrowser startup needed. The said browser is directly integrated in the True Drive software and is used to load the profiles from the online system.

There was a comment from Tommi (GD engineer) that mentioned them looking into “premium” subscription based services in the long term.

It was a speculative post on how things maybe could be done, but he removed his post as it could be understood in a way that we would actually be thinking about such system right at this moment. We are not.


All in all, many of the questions will be answered soon, and some can be answered if people actually took a close look at the screenshots posted.

I did offer a private 1:1 demo session on how the system currently works to one member of this community who has vocal critique. He wasn't interested.

 

[Kiryu]

Thanks for the explanations, really appreciate that.

My sincere apologies to those people that my comments upset. It was not meant to be anything personal.

I sure hope nobody takes the stuff being said here truly personal, at least i don't. I simply wear the "grumpy oldtimer" badge with honor

 

[Deleted member 1234936]

I'm on an Ultimate, all the filters I need, not once has GD requested or insisted that I update the firmware, else I will lose usability. I can stay on TD 2020.10 Forever, without the loss of usage.

Simucube Have released a product with The software to use it.

And that's all they have to do, they are in no way obligated to update firmware, software or hardware, or to pander to what seems, the needs of a few angry/ill informed end users.

I would not be surprised if Simucube stopped all together, is it worth the extra aggro to push the boat out?

Lots of people up in arms without having all the facts in hand, So what if they do make the online system pay to play? (And I'm not Stating they will)

We all buy DLC, How many driving games do you have where you have bought Extras?. Would you stop using steam if lord Gabe started charging a Pound/Euro/whatever a month membership? of course you wouldn't.

What you will have is options, Upgrade or Don't, or sell on and buy gamer grade products.

Sorry for the rant, but this is getting ridiculous.

J

 

[Kiryu]

Simucube Have released a product with The software to use it.

And that's all they have to do, they are in no way obligated to update firmware, software or hardware, or to pander to what seems, the needs of a few angry/ill informed end users.

I have to disagree.

Legally, that might be correct. But as a customer that bought a damn expensive, super duper high end product, i sure expect the software to be refined, at least for a reasonable time frame after the initial release. Just like when i buy an expensive audio streaming solution for example.

Of course products will be outphased and eventually be labeled eol at one point in time. But the simucube 2 was released in 2019.

You really want to compare that to some 15$ DLC for a 40-50$ game?

All in all it sounds that you would be finde to pay for future updates, even at this point in time, which i find almost disturbing.

 

[DirkW]

I'm on an Ultimate, all the filters I need, not once has GD requested or insisted that I update the firmware, else I will lose usability. I can stay on TD 2020.10 Forever, without the loss of usage.

Simucube Have released a product with The software to use it.

And that's all they have to do, they are in no way obligated to update firmware, software or hardware, or to pander to what seems, the needs of a few angry/ill informed end users.

I would not be surprised if Simucube stopped all together, is it worth the extra aggro to push the boat out?

Lots of people up in arms without having all the facts in hand, So what if they do make the online system pay to play? (And I'm not Stating they will)

We all buy DLC, How many driving games do you have where you have bought Extras?. Would you stop using steam if lord Gabe started charging a Pound/Euro/whatever a month membership? of course you wouldn't.

What you will have is options, Upgrade or Don't, or sell on and buy gamer grade products.

Sorry for the rant, but this is getting ridiculous.

J

Totally agree, the sad thing is all that negative ranting and bizarre rumor throwing can kill the fun and motivation to further develop a fantastic product.

 

[TedBrosby-]

My sincere apologies to those people that my comments upset. It was not meant to be anything personal.

Our current line of thinking is that no account is required at all, if we implement the fallback options as it is now. But the focus is on getting the online system and the fallback to profile management exactly like it is now, working correctly. This plan has not changed, it was always like this.

No webbrowser startup needed. The said browser is directly integrated in the True Drive software and is used to load the profiles from the online system.

You guys gained a lot of popularity over the last 1.5 years, especially with the pandemic leading to a massive rise in sim racing as a hobby.

I think it's important to realize that with rapid growth as a company, so to does the responsibility to be a little careful about what you say to your users.

I understand feeling like software you worked very hard on for the community, being attacked by that same community, can make you feel defensive so I'm okay to move forward and I encourage others here to do the same.

It was a speculative post on how things maybe could be done, but he removed his post as it could be understood in a way that we would actually be thinking about such system right at this moment. We are not.

I really hope he was talked to about "paid subscriptions" basically being the Voldemort of hypothetical software discussions. It's situations like that, that are the reason I believe company employees shouldn't be talking directly to the community, especially if they're engineers. We often write/speak before we think, and without thinking that our company name is associated to what we say when we use those accounts.

All in all, many of the questions will be answered soon, and some can be answered if people actually took a close look at the screenshots posted.

The only reason Andrew got upset was because the very first thing he asked was if we needed to be online in order to access our own profiles. That's literally the only concern we have. Other than that, the entire profile system looks great! It's the future. But some of us get disconnected and we're not racing online. We are in the middle of a storm, and decide to hit up our Assetto Corsa mods or race against bots and not having our profiles, even the ones we made locally is really sad. Let's be clear Mika, the online profile system looks great, the UI looks clean, the search functions look strong. But Offline mode needs to be there. A lot of our community members live in places where internet is spotty.

I did offer a private 1:1 demo session on how the system currently works to one member of this community who has vocal critique. He wasn't interested.

You might as well say his name rhymes with "Canned Brew", we all know who you're talking about.

As long as you guys don't dumb down our filters, don't require us to be online to access profiles or change the wheel settings with saved settings per each game and don't require us to "connect" a social networking account, I think the community can look past anything "mainstream" you guys do. I mean, I get it, you have to do something to appeal to the Facebook groups. But there is a way to make sure the hardcore enthusiasts are taken care of while also offering something Diet Coke like for the Facebook racers.

Welcome to RD by the way, I encourage you to take a look at the RD Premium based content.

 

[Deleted member 1234936]

Hi Kiryu,

of course I would be happy with a subscription charge, I've bought a premium product and my investment does not stop with the purchase, If I can contribute to a better sim racing future for me and my counterparts then so be it.

Your Point regarding the $40/50 dollar game is a good one. What we should be asking is why isn't that game finished at that price? No dlc or updates. Just a Limited life span as a downside.

Also the Audio suggestion I like, I have reasonably (to me) High End Audio kit. Roksan Kandy K2 int Amp, K2 CD Player, Pro-Ject Carbon TT.

RPI3, iQaudio Dac, that feeds the Amp, now here's the thing, I use Software Called RuneOS, on the Pi, the author released this for free, their is a donation page, but I never have, (I'm going to correct this), The Author should/could make this a subscription service, And people would pay, It sounds Awesome.

Also I still invest in LP'S And CD'S, So I've bought the kit, and yet I'm still Subscribing in a scense.

You also did not Answer the question regarding Steam as a subscription service, I would like People's ideas about this, With cloud and Elon's faster free internet service, this would be a game changer.

J

 

[Kiryu]

Hi Kiryu,

of course I would be happy with a subscription charge, I've bought a premium product and my investment does not stop with the purchase, If I can contribute to a better sim racing future for me and my counterparts then so be it.

Sounds a bit like every company's wet dream

I would argue that a premium product, sold at a premium price, should just have some sort of lifespan already priced in and that (to me at least) includes software updates in that case.

Disclaimer: I know it's now just hypothetical because Mika made it clear that there are not plans like that!

Now, had the product been retired and replaced by a successor, that's another story. Though i would prefer some sort of one time payment for example to get access to improved firmware, if i see value in it.

But the product is still on sale, thus creating revenue.

I can sort of understand a subscription based model where it would probably not work otherwise, maybe because you have a large infrastructure and need to pay a lot of developers. Like Iracing for example, where you can file a protest that someone has to review, and i assume those people don't work for free.

Though even there you have people saying it's too expensive and overpriced, so of course, that's highly subjective.

And of course it's impossible to really argue where a company is making "enough" money to not need a monthly fee and ultimately it boils down to the question if it's worth it for the customer.

Your Point regarding the $40/50 dollar game is a good one. What we should be asking is why isn't that game finished at that price? No dlc or updates. Just a Limited life span as a downside.

First of all, dlc is usually paid, isn't it? And updates are up to the developer as long as the game is working and does not need excessive patching. Which for obvious reasons should be free, you already bought the product in the end. If devs decide to rework a game than it's mostly because it was successful, made loads of money and they want to attract even more buyers.

Other than that, it's mostly like that. You buy a game and that's it or what does "limited lifespan" mean in that context? Maybe i got that wrong. But as long as we are talking singleplayer games, subscription makes no sense to me as there is no upkeep cost after a certain point?

Also the Audio suggestion I like, I have reasonably (to me) High End Audio kit. Roksan Kandy K2 int Amp, K2 CD Player, Pro-Ject Carbon TT.

RPI3, iQaudio Dac, that feeds the Amp, now here's the thing, I use Software Called RuneOS, on the Pi, the author released this for free, their is a donation page, but I never have, (I'm going to correct this), The Author should/could make this a subscription service, And people would pay, It sounds Awesome.

Also I still invest in LP'S And CD'S, So I've bought the kit, and yet I'm still Subscribing in a scense.

I'm using Jriver and they offer a Version you can buy and you would usually get some patches and have to buy the next version (with a discount though). I'm not sure if people would accept a subscription model for that one and frankly, it's not needed. If after a couple of revisions you feel like it's worth the upgrade, pay once, done.

I don't understand why you think that RuneOS should be a subscription. Because it sounds awesome? How about Crew Chief being a subscription? It's a great tool. Oh, an MSI-Afterburner, it works great, people would totally pay monthly for that.

You also did not Answer the question regarding Steam as a subscription service, I would like People's ideas about this, With cloud and Elon's faster free internet service, this would be a game changer.

You are right, i somehow missed this one. The answer is obviously a clear no, the reason being that steam already has a working business model. They sell games and keep a nice chunk for themselves for every single sale. Why does a shop need a subscription? Makes no sense at all.

Also, how about Origin, Uplay, Epic Games, Blizzard, GoG and all the ones i have forgotten, all of a sudden introduce a subscription? Good luck with keeping up then.

 

[DirkW]

Hi Kiryu,

of course I would be happy with a subscription charge, I've bought a premium product and my investment does not stop with the purchase, If I can contribute to a better sim racing future for me and my counterparts then so be it.

Your Point regarding the $40/50 dollar game is a good one. What we should be asking is why isn't that game finished at that price? No dlc or updates. Just a Limited life span as a downside.

Also the Audio suggestion I like, I have reasonably (to me) High End Audio kit. Roksan Kandy K2 int Amp, K2 CD Player, Pro-Ject Carbon TT.

RPI3, iQaudio Dac, that feeds the Amp, now here's the thing, I use Software Called RuneOS, on the Pi, the author released this for free, their is a donation page, but I never have, (I'm going to correct this), The Author should/could make this a subscription service, And people would pay, It sounds Awesome.

Also I still invest in LP'S And CD'S, So I've bought the kit, and yet I'm still Subscribing in a scense.

You also did not Answer the question regarding Steam as a subscription service, I would like People's ideas about this, With cloud and Elon's faster free internet service, this would be a game changer.

J

IMO its a difference if software is your main product or if you sell expensive hardware with a necessary driver. In the latter case, traditionally the manufacturer sells the hardware as product and that's a one time deal and then you own and use it without further cost. Often they update and improve the drivers regularly and free of charge and that gives them an incredible value, namely creates customer goodwill, and especially also trust and goodwill in future customers meaning this creates business opportunities and competition advantages. I understand that's exactly what GD does.

Software subscription is a cash cow and some software and even hardware developers try to make some extra money that way. I know from the camera business that people very much appreciate regular free of charge firmware updates and it's one of the factors that decides which camera system you buy into. An opposite example is navigation software that some car manufacturers update only for considerable extra payments - so people often buy third party GPSes with included lifelong map updates instead. I also know from the software business that some companies introduced subscription models, e.g. Adobe with their Photoshop, but that created major s..t-storms in parts of the user base and many people jumped ship to other products.

I also regularly donate to well made software products under donation model, last time e.g. Simhub, but I don't like the idea of recurring obligatory costs.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Our current line of thinking is that no account is required at all, if we implement the fallback options as it is now. But the focus is on getting the online system and the fallback to profile management exactly like it is now, working correctly. This plan has not changed, it was always like this.

Really, just because you caved in under pressure from the community you care and respect so little, does not make it "always was the plan", you never had this plan, all it was "online only with old system going away".

And no, we do not have favorites here that need some "special" one-on-one VIP demo treatment, has something to share, share it with every single concerned community member (minority of grumpy old men, tech ignorant parrots, all in their heads, whatever other insults they deserved by being loyal customers and vocal proponents of the product) .

@Jason Pladoh, when you buy any sort of electronic device, TV, receiver, BD player, photo camera, printer, router, etc, you get FW/SW updates for as long as company supports that product, way past warranty period. It's all included in the price of the device.

Actually, that would be a good reason to go with Fanatec, they always provide drivers for free no matter how long you own the product.

 

[TedBrosby-]

Just to take a break from everything, if anyone is interested, I did a deep dive of the BB Ultra button box by Sim Racing Bay.
Other videos, people only pressed a few buttons, talked about the price and the finish and that's it. I tried to go into a lot more technical details if you're interested.

 

[Deleted member 1234936]

Hi Andrew,

My point was that no company is obligated to provide updates, People on here think they are, and it should be their way or the highway. People are free to choose what they do. Going with fanatec and your still buying in a subs service, free drivers or not.

If it made me this angry, I would sell up and try a competitor, This racing is supposed to be fun at the end of the day.

 

[Deleted member 1234936]

Thanx for the video Ted, I have this button plate, and as a serial disassembler this has helped a lot.

J

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Nice video Ted, thanks for sharing.
I have BB-PRO-32 and for 350€ plus shipping I got it, it is okay, better than similar offerings in the same price range.
With Ultra, Ascher B-16L-SC is only 30€ more and while does not come with funky switches, has a quite better execution.
But again I haven't hold Ultra in my hands, only compared Ascher with BBRO, may be it's better than predecessor, hard to tell from the video alone.

 

[TedBrosby-]

Nice video Ted, thanks for sharing.
I have BB-PRO-32 and for 350€ plus shipping I got it, it is okay, better than similar offerings in the same price range.
With Ultra, Ascher B-16L-SC is only 30€ more and while does not come with funky switches, has a quite better execution.
But again I haven't hold Ultra in my hands, only compared Ascher with BBRO, may be it's better than predecessor, hard to tell from the video alone.

I think the big advantage with Ascher is you get Martins quality engineering and shifters. It’s really hard to beat either.
I think if you want a high amount of inputs and are willing to sacrifice quality, BB Ultra is a good buy but those minor quality issues I identified, I would eat dirt if I ever saw that come out of a Martin Ascher box lol.
I wish I could compare the newer Ascher hardware to the older Ascher boxes like the one you have. There’s definitely differences in the switches used and the layout style.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I think the big advantage with Ascher is you get Martins quality engineering and shifters. It’s really hard to beat either.
I think if you want a high amount of inputs and are willing to sacrifice quality, BB Ultra is a good buy but those minor quality issues I identified, I would eat dirt if I ever saw that come out of a Martin Ascher box lol.
I wish I could compare the newer Ascher hardware to the older Ascher boxes like the one you have. There’s definitely differences in the switches used and the layout style.

I have old C20M (bigger version of what Barry reviewed a while back) and the new B16L-SC.
I like sleek design of the new aluminum enclosure but for buttons, encoders quality as well as ergonomics, the older button box hands down the best. I wish we had wireless version of that one.
Seems like Ascher Racing (KW Automotive) went the mass produce, easy to fabricate route instead of more custom designed solutions with racing car quality components.

BBPRO32 buttons and encoders are a step down from new box, and not even a remote match to the older Ascher style.

 

[LeeHetherington]

Nice video. No “let’s get to it” at the start?

I have both BB Ultra and B16M-USB. Other than perhaps sticker quality, I don’t really see anything better on B16. Texture of front plate slightly different, but neither really “better” to me. I think the shifters are very comparable, buttons comparable, funky switches quite clicky. Wireless connection always 100% for me (my SC2 has external antenna).

I’m selling my B16. I don’t see better execution in my opinion. Both are excellent all metal construction.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Nice video. No “let’s get to it” at the start?

I have both BB Ultra and B16M-USB. Other than perhaps sticker quality, I don’t really see anything better on B16. Texture of front plate slightly different, but neither really “better” to me. I think the shifters are very comparable, buttons comparable, funky switches quite clicky. Wireless connection always 100% for me (my SC2 has external antenna).

I’m selling my B16. I don’t see better execution in my opinion. Both are excellent all metal construction.

I know Tommo changed encoders on Ultra, are buttons different too as this is my second least favorite thing on BBPRO?

 

[TedBrosby-]

Nice video. No “let’s get to it” at the start?

I have both BB Ultra and B16M-USB. Other than perhaps sticker quality, I don’t really see anything better on B16. Texture of front plate slightly different, but neither really “better” to me. I think the shifters are very comparable, buttons comparable, funky switches quite clicky. Wireless connection always 100% for me (my SC2 has external antenna).

I’m selling my B16. I don’t see better execution in my opinion. Both are excellent all metal construction.

In my best day, I couldn't touch Barry's technical skills or his driving skills. But I do wanna go more on the technical type of YT videos and less on the "YT'er, Instagram influencer" types like other popular sim racing channels.

If you value maximizing the inputs, and you think B16 having 12 less inputs is a deal breaker, and you're willing to sacrifice the finish quality, the quality of the push buttons and the decals, then yeah BB Ultra is a better deal.
But I wouldn't put the BB Ultra on par with Ascher's quality or included decals.

IMO, while the BB Ultra is "all metal", there's definitely a difference in the CNC mill they used. You can see circular milling patterns if you look really closely at the shifter mounting plate. It's not something that's like "wow what garbage", but to someone with OCD, you'll notice it for sure.
And it's not like €399 is "super cheap". If a $400 Fanatec wheel had milling scratches on an externally visible surface, it would be a 1k+ upvoted Reddit post.
Also, while I do like the PCB, there are signs that Tommo kind of left a lot of changed decisions on it, like the incorrect labeling of paddle 1 and external button 1, and the unused grounding holes, and the unexplained circular cutouts around the Simucube module mount.
Also, inside the box is only 1 allen key, for the encoder knobs, but no allen key for the shifters or the housing of the plate. This is strange to me. I think either don't include any or include all that are necessary (it's only 1 more key lol).
The decals are very "here are some decals", but nothing I would write home about.
Don't Ascher Racing boxes have like 90+ decals in the box? BB Ultra has one sheet and a lot of core functions aren't included.

This isn't a clear cut "Ascher B16 is worthless because BB Ultra has more inputs" type comparison. IMO, you sacrifice a few aspects in order to get two funky switches: lower quality decals, lower quality surface finish and medium grade button switches, but you get more inputs (2x funky switches) and save €30.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

What I like about Ascher plate is adjustability of paddle shifters as you can adjust position and force to your personal taste or rim used.
adjust shifter position
• to achieve the most comfortable ergonomics, paddle location is adjustable
• paddle shifters can be moved inwards by 9.5 mm each:
1. open button plate by removing 4 x screws (hex wrench) on the frontplate
2. unmount paddle shifters (hex wrench)
3. mount shifters to alternative mounting position
4. inward screws (now located inside the casing) must be replaced with supplied shorter ones
• paddle can be moved closer to the wheel rim:
– mount paddle to the lower side of the shifter lever arm
– for additional adjustment, 5mm paddle spacers are available separately
paddle shifter force setting
• 4 pcs 3mm magnets & spacers can be found in the packaging foam insert
• approx. actuation force depending on magnet height and spacers:
1. 800g = 5mm + 5mm (factory default)
2. 570g = 5mm + 5mm + 1 spacer
3. 480g = 3mm + 3mm
4. 440g = 5mm + 5mm + 2 spacers
5. 340g = 3mm + 3mm + 1 spacer
6. 260g = 3mm + 3mm + 2 spacers