PC1 Latest Build testing.

[Andy_J]

As you all know, Ian gave me a free pass to test the latest builds and that's what I have been doing for the last week. I will report here as and when I see fit to tell all about my findings.

But I will say that the latest build (296) is quite good. Now lets make some sense of my statement. I used a Lotus 98T in helmet cam using my antique MOMO red wheel and I can honestly report it is coming along much better than I anticipated. The actual feel and immersion is damn fine at this point. The handling is strange at first compared to say...RF2 and FVA, but it grows on you within minutes. At this point in time, this actual car feels good. I like it and I love the Milan circuit. The damage model has come on leaps and bounds.

I am doing some more testing all of next week using a G27 and I will also test some of the other cars that don't interest me as much (I am a F1 nut) and see how the feel in comparison to Shift 2, because that is what I was initially comparing PCars to.

I would like the replay function to have a directors mode though. Something that jumps from action to action and from car to car.

Aside from that, the replay's do crash my PC quite often but I understand that is being looked at.

Watch this space.

 

[Chris Partridge]

Yes it is -- but i think it is because the AIW (or equivalent) in pCARS has not been finalised as the tracks continue to develop, I'd imagine that will be done once they are locked down. Silverstone is bad for that.

 

[Damage Inc]

Once again I can't disagree with Andy (shame he won't know it). Ai is the one of the main areas I want pCARS to excel in. I'm primarily an offline racer and have no interest at all in online. I want pCARS to fool me into thinking I'm racing REAL people and not automatons (or automorons as I call them in GT5!).

I also agree with Chris, it must be the AIW due to tracks not being 100% finalised. Quite often I see an Ai car drive on the grass, they don't seem to be too aware of the track limits yet!

 

[RaceNut]

With Pcars graphics being so nice, it can be hard to remember that the game is still pre-alpha and a lot of things have to wait until the proper pieces are put into place. The proper sequence is vital when building complex things. I have learned that the hard way many times.

 

[Andy_J]

With Pcars graphics being so nice, it can be hard to remember that the game is still pre-alpha and a lot of things have to wait until the proper pieces are put into place. The proper sequence is vital when building complex things. I have learned that the hard way many times.

I agree, but we are very close to Beta time now, less than possibly 2-3 months. Beta is where all this should be finalised. The AI needs a hell of a lot of work. I love online racing but I love offline even more and if this is not corrected big time then Pcars will always be an also ran in the world of race games. If the AI is even remotely similar to Shift 1 or 2, then it will have failed in my opinion. It needs more importance and I feel that the WMD community have not pushed for this.

 

[Graham Byford]

The tyres are definitely improving, I hope when they're done they will look at the suspension response and most importantly the FFB which is the weak link for me as it feels numb in terms of grip variation but also spikey and harsh although it's better than it was..

Good AI is very rare thing despite huge advances in CPU power, although not perfect the benchmark for me is still GP4.

 

[Andy_J]

Good AI is very rare thing despite huge advances in CPU power, although not perfect the benchmark for me is still GP4.

Agreed. Geoff Crammond was the master at Race sim making in my opinion. But then again he concentrated on the AI because there was no online GP4 back then. God I wish todays devs would concentrate on the AI, the replays and the little nice details instead of just eye candy.

 

[Damage Inc]

I agree with the Ai discussion, the one area sims fail on is "situational awareness" of the Ai. Yes there should always be a bit of "contact", but it needs to be subtle, they need to program in some way of the Ai "seeing" other cars (especially the player!) and making at least some effort to minimise the contact. Don't know how that could be programmed though, or how resource intensive it would be.

I'd also like to see more human fallibility in the Ai, even if it's pre programmed and "canned". Just little things like some drivers losing the rear on corner exit (maybe linked to some sort of driver skill/coolness under pressure setting). Drivers out braking themselves (Forza 3 did this but only on the easiest setting and usually resulted in the 1st car going off the track 1st corner). If I remember rightly in GTR2 the Ai could have some good fast laps then some not so good where they would drop back...at least that's how it felt to me.

Ai development in all games hasn't progressed as fast as graphics etc, IMO primarily because of the concentration on the Online elements of gaming.

 

[traind]

Forza 5s AI is a new frontier. They are taking data from Forza 5 players and incorporating it into the AI via a cloud based data solution. What you get is much more like multiplayer. It also comes with problems though-- as most people race aggressively in a game like Forza, you can get a lot banging and bumping from the AI. It seems like it is worse on the lower difficulty levels-- on the higher levels you have less aggression. It is a work in progress but certainly feels different from standard AI.

 

[Damage Inc]

Forza 5s AI is a new frontier. They are taking data from Forza 5 players and incorporating it into the AI via a cloud based data solution. What you get is much more like multiplayer. It also comes with problems though-- as most people race aggressively in a game like Forza, you can get a lot banging and bumping from the AI. It seems like it is worse on the lower difficulty levels-- on the higher levels you have less aggression. It is a work in progress but certainly feels different from standard AI.

Interesting, although, I'm not happy with using ai based on the "players"...unless it's the higher tier players that is. As you say about the "problems", could be good, but could also be a mine field!

 

[Andy_J]

Forza 5s AI is a new frontier. They are taking data from Forza 5 players and incorporating it into the AI via a cloud based data solution. What you get is much more like multiplayer. .

Heard this from my eldest son who loves the Forza series and has got F5 on his xbox one console. I asked him about the AI and he told all about the way it used data from multiplayer. He likes it. And that game looks damn good too.

But back to Pcars, I don't bother to log in at the WMD forum for obvious reasons, but can anyone tell me if they have a team or expert working on the AI?

On a side note. I was playing Flatout 2 for a laugh the other night and AI in that is far better than Pcars at this present time. Actually I think the physics are better too but we won't go there. lol

 

[David Ignjatovic]

AC vs pcars....

AC is getting better all the time, but pcars is all but stagnant and just doesn't drive like a sim, ie, based on the many sims I own and have currently installed.

I also strongly suspect that AC would be even better with a more powerful wheel like a T500, but I'm not certain pcars would be as it simply lacks so much FFB detail to start with.

Good news is that there's no horrid Shift2 inconsistency, and it could end up being great fun on MP, but I won't spend much time on SP regardless of AI quality as the driving model doesn't compel me.

 

[Damage Inc]

Can someone tell Andy that there's a team working on Ai and Doug working on the AIWs. There's a thread regarding his AIW changes over at WMD. I've just done a good 10 lap race at Conn Short against 29 Ai and it was significantly better than I remember, no carnage, no punting, no excessive weaving or grass excursions. Once they work more on the Ai logic I think it'll be pretty darn good.

 

[Damage Inc]

AC vs pcars....

AC is getting better all the time, but pcars is all but stagnant and just doesn't drive like a sim, ie, based on the many sims I own and have currently installed.

I also strongly suspect that AC would be even better with a more powerful wheel like a T500, but I'm not certain pcars would be as it simply lacks so much FFB detail to start with.

Good news is that there's no horrid Shift2 inconsistency, and it could end up being great fun on MP, but I won't spend much time on SP regardless of AI quality as the driving model doesn't compel me.

David have you tried the Caterham classic? Also have you tried any of the wheel tweaks users have created (I use Jack Spades for my CSR), it's not perfect by any means, but his tweaks add a lot more life to the ffb. I think that until the ffb is overhauled you will sadly never get on with the game.

 

[Andy_J]

Anyone? Regarding the AI in Pcars? Are there any threads on the WMD forum that actually delve into the AI and it's complexities? I seriously doubt WMD/SMS are putting much effort into the single player side of the game. Too much emphasis on eye candy maybe?

 

[Andy_J]

Can't believe some sad person disliked my last post. How sad is that? Seriously? I ask a question and some sad case dislikes it? Come on, get real.

 

[William Wester]

The AI is not bad, they can race you hard and for the most part don't run you off the road. There is a problem on some tracks, I believe tracks that are a WIP, but usually its them taking themselves out.
They don't frustrate me like the AI in AC but I am sure both sims will get things in order.

 

[traind]

Anyone? Regarding the AI in Pcars? Are there any threads on the WMD forum that actually delve into the AI and it's complexities? I seriously doubt WMD/SMS are putting much effort into the single player side of the game. Too much emphasis on eye candy maybe?

I just tried out the AI in pCars and found it to be pretty good. Not a revolution but, for the cars and tracks I tried, it certainly felt more than just serviceable. It was not a huge wreck fest by any means-- in fact the AI tried to avoid me on numerous occasions like slow starts off the line and coming toward the apex. I thought that was good news on the collision front (I did see collisions between AI cars though, which I thought were entertaining and provided me something to avoid which is cool).

The speed of the AI was a bit inconsistent for me -- in the GT class it seemed too slow for me at the default settings but with the BAC Mono it was much quicker and harder to pass at the same settings. Not sure why that was the case but it doesn't seem like a hard thing to fix--- and maybe it was me as I could be slower in the BAC vs. the GTs.

The physics and AI forums at WMD are very very active but physics does make up the lionshare of the pages. A quick scan at threads that are stickied shows 3.5 for AI with about 42+ pages in those. So they aren't empty but also aren't nearly as long as the prime physics threads. There are other AI threads below the stickies too.

As far as eye candy, well here is the way I see it. Graphics are a clear strength of the team at SMS and they are leaning into it. Personally, I like great graphics and am happy they are focusing on it. But that is because I also know they are working hard on physics and handling feel. I certainly believe handling feel is more important ( I still play RBR after all ) but we all have to recognize it is also harder to create. And the physics guys can't do graphics work and vice versa.

Every title has it's strengths and weaknesses. Clearly graphics will be a pCars strength, as will car & track selection, weather, 24 hour cycle and, more an more, I feel like audio is a clear strength too. All those make a pretty compelling reason for purchase yet handling feel is king. I am optimistic that handling is falling into place nicely. But we'll have to wait and see just how close it will end up being to the standard bearers in the sim world.

 

[RaceNut]

Also regarding the AI in Pcars, I believe SMS have stated that they won't dial in the AI until the tracks are finalized, otherwise it might require re-working to adjust for any track updates.

 

[Andy_J]

Thanks for the useful info.

It is clear to see though, that Pcars is eye candy first and foremost and that is their goal. And it does look like Shift 2 but that is because they are using the same but modified engine. I am hoping the AI is superior though because I rarely race multiplayer and prefer the single player experience.

 

[Andy_J]

Aaw bless, someone disliked me and the fact that is said it looks like Shift 2 a bit. Bless the poor darlings. Or the fact that I stated it was eye candy first. Disagree yes, but surely not dislike? It is just my opinion on the game so far.