PC1 Latest Build testing.

[Andy_J]

As you all know, Ian gave me a free pass to test the latest builds and that's what I have been doing for the last week. I will report here as and when I see fit to tell all about my findings.

But I will say that the latest build (296) is quite good. Now lets make some sense of my statement. I used a Lotus 98T in helmet cam using my antique MOMO red wheel and I can honestly report it is coming along much better than I anticipated. The actual feel and immersion is damn fine at this point. The handling is strange at first compared to say...RF2 and FVA, but it grows on you within minutes. At this point in time, this actual car feels good. I like it and I love the Milan circuit. The damage model has come on leaps and bounds.

I am doing some more testing all of next week using a G27 and I will also test some of the other cars that don't interest me as much (I am a F1 nut) and see how the feel in comparison to Shift 2, because that is what I was initially comparing PCars to.

I would like the replay function to have a directors mode though. Something that jumps from action to action and from car to car.

Aside from that, the replay's do crash my PC quite often but I understand that is being looked at.

Watch this space.

 

[Chronus]

I switch from a G27 to a t500rs but the problem was the same.

I expected as much, I must say.

Curious, though, some reporting this issue, and others saying they have no issues - probably even with the same type of controllers.

 

[Birddogg66]

I switch from a G27 to a t500rs but the problem was the same. I didn't put my life in SMS's hands so there is more nice software to play with.

What ever works for you PK. I play a lot of different titles and my SR gaming is FTMP mood driven. I hadn't fired up historx in a while and had a blast earlier. So yes I am a strong supporter of pCARS but that is not where it stops. So much to look forward to in the future!
All one could hope is that all of us are having enjoyment with what's on our plate. So if pCARS is not what you are expecting to be there is no reason to belittle you or others that feel that way if what is being said makes sense.
Take Care.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

You feel this pivot in your playing of the latest build?

Last build.....and it sounds like there's no need to dl the new build.

 

[Peter]

I expected as much, I must say.

Curious, though, some reporting this issue, and others saying they have no issues - probably even with the same type of controllers.

Noticed the same, maybe they don't wanna tell.
I missed the race in Canada because I was watching the front wheels only, but no car has the same behaviour
Another thing on WMD is that suddenly alot ppl became sim experts over night.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Another thing on WMD is that suddenly alot ppl became sim experts over night.

And worshippers of rl drivers.......but remember 5th Gear's Tiff's picks for best racing games, LOL...

 

[Chronus]

Noticed the same, maybe they don't wanna tell.
I missed the race in Canada because I was watching the front wheels only, but no car has the same behaviour
Another thing on WMD is that suddenly alot ppl became sim experts over night.

As you have been following WMD forums, you may remember a series of posts (some 5 months or so ago) about Pacejka/ISIMotor2 curves and a boatload of nonsense by a couple of posters (to the point that grip falls to ZERO! after the peak and almost immediately, something the poster said, was inevitable and all such models suffered from). No one took upon himself/herself to correct the nonsense and worse several posters praised the explanation - very enlightening and representative of what you said above.

Also noteworthy that discussing a problem someone has equates to being a <fill in the word here>...even when you want C.A.R.S. to succeed. Interesting.

--

So, changing the controller for you did nothing but prove the issue is still there. Was there a fix issued or some form of advice when you first reported this way back?

 

[Peter]

There was an advice "live with it or leave" and "stop the negative critics".

 

[Chronus]

Hmmm...

Whatever the importance people give the FFB, it is just a layer on top of vital things such as the physics engine, visual and sound cues. And compared to these, quite simple in terms of complexity and amount of work. It can change any time for the better (true, for the worse too), and much faster than those other things.

So...and just asking...why not assess how good (in its fundamentals) C.A.R.S. is, FFB notwithstanding? If it is not (yet) satisfying, turn it off for a while. And if after doing that the feel is not what you expect, then your views/suspicions are confirmed and you can simply drop it (for good or until much later).

At this point, disregarding the zealots, the many maitre-de-hotel woofing after critics and the FFB is undoubtedly important to check (and realize) how good C.A.R.S. is and probably will be.

 

[Birddogg66]

There was a moment in time when the STM was first being introduced and the cars really felt glued to the track and lifeless. So I made a proposal to create a Hardcore mode with more slidey and oversteery cars and I got shredded pretty bad with it. I almost left. Over time the grip levels have come back the other way somewhat so I chalk it up to lack of patience at the time. IMO I felt that things had gotten pretty darn good with the old tire model and this was a major change.
So I understand some of the comments relating to compliance within the community. I'm lucky I didn't get a warning but my feedback was constructive and only attacked those attacking me 1 person in particular and did get verbal warning without an official warning. The mods do do a great job there.
As far as the knowledge of the people @WMD there are a lot of older old school members there that do have a lot of experience with more than just Sim Racing but great modders and software coders working on 3rd party apps. I myself have been Sim Racing for over 10 years and have played anything that is considered simulation going back to 1998. I like old school sim titles but have to allow for advancements even if I am not crazy about them at first.
So I have brought myself to just allow SMS to do what they are going to do and just try to do my best to help along the way and I see some of the stuff that has been brought up here as possibly being helpful.
So the fact that I am trying to reach out to you guys that posting @WMD had become uncomfortable for you I'd like to hear both the good and bad about the physics since I don't think anyone is complaining about graphics.
I am interested in Strong Points as well as weaknesses.

 

[RaceNut]

I do follow quite a few discussions on the WMD forums and I have to say, the moderators seem to be doing a good job there. The only time I see things get rather heated is when someone chimes in with negative attitude or insults - even then, the mods give fair warning. There has been plenty of criticism on several game aspects and as long as it doesn't turn into personal attacks, discussions are allowed to continue.

I think that the main issue is that of people not understanding the development process, getting impatient, maybe frustrated and taking jabs at the developers or other forum members. Overall progress is being made although, the various priorities may not be to everyone's liking. That is understandable given the nature of this kind of venture.

This development approach is new and there is a learning curve involved - for everyone. If we can be of some help in the process - great. If someone disagrees with the way things are being handled and you know you can do better, then do it. Start your own development company and show everyone how its done. The view from the quarterback's perspective is quite different from that of the armchair.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I think that the main issue is that of people not understanding the development process,

Oh, and how is it you know the exact outcome and timelines?
We've been told many times to wait for the next build the next TM etc, yet it's still pcars the simcade racer, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not a sim in my books.

 

[DayGlow]

Oh, and how is it you know the exact outcome and timelines?
We've been told many times to wait for the next build the next TM etc, yet it's still pcars the simcade racer, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not a sim in my books.

So you've seen no progress on fidelity from the first alpha release through to the current alpha build?

 

[Nathan Robinson]

So you've seen no progress on fidelity from the first alpha release to the current alpha build?

Thats Just David. He Likes Attention. He Constantly Says The Exact Same Thing About Pcars. Much Like A Parrot for Some Reason He Feels The Need To Reiterate His Stance As If No One Heard Him The First Hundred Times. Sorry For Caps, My CellPhone Is Wank.

 

[Chronus]

Little fish aside...
---
Back on topic:
- a couple of weeks ago this was reported at VirtualR:

* Pagani Zonda R: Stiffer roll bars on Ben’s feedback, tuned engine and brake heating/wear, temporary increase in tire pressure until an STM heating model is done

- and in one of the most recent builds something more:

* Lotus 98T: New modal carcass and Flash tread. Enabled some wear and heating for public testing. Not sure amounts as I’m doing it mostly by feel.
Lotus 78 – same carcass and flash changes as the 98T. also has wear and heating enabled

Also:

Physics:
* Pass dynamic live air pressure values to physics systems
* Vehicle dynamics updates:
* Volumetric throttle modelling
* Tweakers for throttle response
* Non-gold csv export of brakemapping and torque volumetric data
* New algorithm for engine load used by audio systems
* Adjustable brake mapping and restrictor plates
* Ambient pressure considered as part of throttle response
* Per vehicle EDF updates to use new systems
* Updated switch from loading state to race to proceed physics sync immediately

The bits in bold might explain (largely?) the behaviour/handling annoyances or anomalies. Dynamic live air pressures alone can have several repercussions; ambient pressure influencing throttle will influence how drivers perceive throttle/acceleration/deceleration.

Also noteworthy the bits about the STM heat modelling and calibration by feel at the moment. And no mention to inertia dynamics or FFB issues.

Obviously, none of the above relates to David's assertion (suspicion?) of the use of "center point physics" unless we consider the correlation of forces at the contact patch is imperfect.

Lots of seemingly "small" things going on at the same time that can have a large impact on the most important thing - the physics of C.A.R.S.,

 

[Birddogg66]

Well said Chronus.

 

[Chronus]

Something to think about (for those actually interested in discussing things in great detail and, as Birddogg said, interested in the strengths and weaknesses of C.A.R.S.).

The good thing about working with/for pro drivers is that one gets to understand rather quickly some of the things we should be expecting (or ought to expect) from a racing sim (and no, the usual pathetic, nonsensical excuse "it's just a game" doesn't carry the slightest weight here). That is also why, in the case of C.A.R.S., someone like Ben Collins can be fundamental to actually steer the project towards more realism (hmm...provided devs listen to him, provided devs are given time enough to do things right - two big "ifs"). And usually, what a lot of simracers and casual gamers expect from a racing sim is not exactly what the professional drivers expect, hence why their feedback can be invaluable (if properly used).

It is rather simple to assess a sim even when no telemetry is available.

If a sim is able to replicate the following (I and a few others have with rF, Race 07 and NetKar Pro), then that sim is on the right track...or is already a good, honest racing sim (with or without money-making eye-candy details):

1-notice how the driver deals with oversteer without really pointing away from the corner, i.e.,without any relevant countersteering, and only by reducing the amount of steering

2-Letting off the throttle, the weight of the car shifts to the front, less load on the rear, more skidding on the rear, less traction there. So, some pedal input is required to re-balance the car. Basic stuff, right? And yet, many a sim fail to deliver this.

3-Fit different tires on the front and rear and the natural behaviour of the car will be sharpened (either towards understeering, or towards oversteering). Several interesting things to look out for in this video.

 

[Birddogg66]

Well I downloaded my mid week build yesterday and was prompted to renew the controller profile.
What PK has been mentioning as a turn off to him in braking Yes I get that but it does not bother me too much. In this video there is no where that mimics the behavior of this braking effect even on the bumpy pavement of Sebring. What I am seeing is the feedback in the wheel is about 100% related to those bumps even bouncing off the driving line in some of the corners and having to correct.

So the effect may need further work done on it but is not a killer of the experience as a whole to me.

What I am finding is the work done to throttle input I see as nice on the Lotus 49 but IMO has caused some other cars to bog a bit on the slightest inclines and just question if adjustments will need to be made in all the cars to compensate. I for one would like a pretty aggressive throttle input and want the ability to burn tires in 3 gears. Well I guess some of that would depend on tire compound. My drag racing slicks on my 1967 firebird 400 RA built for 1/4 mile were not the easiest to burn off and wanted to hook even at normal pressures.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

I specifically tried straight line braking in pCars yesterday to see if I could replicate what above posters have reported (wheel pulling to one side), and I could not. I tried the Atom (all three versions) and the BAC Mono, slamming the brakes during a high speed straight and just barely holding the wheel to see if there where any pull to one side, and nothing, even if wheels locked up it would not pull at all.
I'm using a Fanatec GT3 RS v2, in case that makes a difference.

 

[Birddogg66]

Hmmm I was getting what PK is describing without brake lock on my CSW and he has a T500 and I believe both are dual ffb motor controllers while yours is not I have the same wheel as well as a backup. So that may play into it who knows? Like I said it really does not bother me.

 

[Peter]

I specifically tried straight line braking in pCars yesterday to see if I could replicate what above posters have reported (wheel pulling to one side), and I could not. I tried the Atom (all three versions) and the BAC Mono, slamming the brakes during a high speed straight and just barely holding the wheel to see if there where any pull to one side, and nothing, even if wheels locked up it would not pull at all.
I'm using a Fanatec GT3 RS v2, in case that makes a difference.

I could make you an onboard video tomorrow.